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GaussianCopula posted:
Could be cavalry. Could be dragoons or recon.
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Mar 27, 2016 10:22
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What are you people talking about, that's clearly an elephant. Edit: Sexiest counters I ever saw: 
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Mar 27, 2016 10:22
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Nerds.
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Mar 27, 2016 10:28
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GaussianCopula posted:
We all know of the famous and feared zebra regiments of WWII.
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Mar 27, 2016 10:46
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I wish I had it in me to believe that's a serious post.
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Mar 27, 2016 11:04
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GaussianCopula posted:
Maybe it's your own personal favourite unit - an SS Brigade, you loving nazi.
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Mar 27, 2016 11:10
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Star posted:We all know of the famous and feared zebra regiments of WWII. Kavak, please implement zebra cavalry for Mittelafrika in the HOI4 version of the Kaiserreich mod.
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Mar 27, 2016 11:15
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Empress Theonora posted:IIRC somebody pointed out in the replies to the China DD thread that the portrait of Mao they used is him way older than he would have been during WWII, but they weren't sure if they'd be able to fix it in time for release. This was Mao during the war: 
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Mar 27, 2016 11:26
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Yeah, I'm glad nobody sensible gets the NATO-counter fetishism
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Mar 27, 2016 12:07
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Paradox please replace the country leader portraits with NATO counters.
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Mar 27, 2016 13:11
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Can I get some of those NATO counters in Stellaris please. Thanks. Actually no Stellaris looks good and I don't want you to ruin that.
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Mar 27, 2016 13:43
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GaussianCopula posted:
Yeah, I didn't say depressed horse looks better than diagonal line, I  ed at the idea of any counters being "visually appalling" - in either case they're very condensed and abstract ways to get data into your brain, but I've never thought they look pretty. Of course, some people like the strangest things, and that's fine, but it's a bit weird to hear about sometimes. But even if you think the horse counter doesn't look unequivocally horsey, there's no zebra or cow units to confuse it with, there's only one possible unit in the game which might be represented by any quadrupedal animal , the NATO symbol only becomes more clear if you're a weird nerd like you or I who already know what they mean. There's also never been any question of NATO counters not being included, they have always been announced as an option because we know grognards like to see NATO counters and average players are more likely to identify with a little picture of a tank than with a weird oval - but people [in general] keep confusing two separate issues here: 1) You cannot disable unit models entirely, you always have models when you zoom in and counters when you zoom out. 2) You can choose to have your counters be our pictographic ones or NATO ones and so announce that we have suddenly added NATO counters (we have always said we have them) or that we have changed it so you can always have counters and never models (no, they are both present at different zoom levels). (Also I picked the Mao portrait we used, it made more sense to me to use an iconic picture of a well-known leader rather than a more accurate but less recognisable one) Darkrenown fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Mar 27, 2016 |
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Mar 27, 2016 14:06
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Seriously though: I don't get the hate against NATO counters. (I am not a grog. HOI3 is probably the groggiest game I've played ever.) In my view, the base symbols are easy to learn and they are combine in an intuitive fashion to convey a lot of information about a unit. They are also more clear in a low-res environment To use the cavalry example: We know that the top one is a horse, but with a little squinting it also looks like an SMG or a rifle perhaps. In fact, when I first saw the post I actually took a head-take as to why a SMG unit had a cavalry counter. The NATO counter on the other hand clearly has one line going through it and not two, with blurry vision or lower resolution that will always look like cavalry. Although I might suggest for HOI4 that the counters be shifted to the right side of the icon box, unless there's information that will also be shown on the right hand-corners of that box as well.
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Mar 27, 2016 14:21
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70% of people who end up buying HoI4 aren't going to learn NATO counters either way so embrace the derp horse.
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Mar 27, 2016 14:23
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Apparently Killerrabbit has already started up the Modern Day Scenario mod development for HOI4. I'm the lensflare in Hollande's portrait. 
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Mar 27, 2016 14:25
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Assad looks oddly dignified for someone who will probably be dead by the end of the year.
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Mar 27, 2016 14:27
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RentACop posted:Wait, there's no Guangxi Clique. Preorder etc They're there, China just united because of the war 
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Mar 27, 2016 14:36
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Epinephrine posted:Seriously though: I don't get the hate against NATO counters. (I am not a grog. HOI3 is probably the groggiest game I've played ever.) In my view, the base symbols are easy to learn and they are combine in an intuitive fashion to convey a lot of information about a unit. They are also more clear in a low-res environment To use the cavalry example: So basically: It's easy to learn that a box with a line in it represents a horse, but super-difficult to learn that a horse represents a horse. Makes sense.
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Mar 27, 2016 14:37
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Lines and ovals in boxes are for pro grogs like me, the rest can use their baby hats and donkey sprites Actually what we really need is Soviet style counters, they look fun.
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Mar 27, 2016 14:44
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Drone posted:Apparently Killerrabbit has already started up the Modern Day Scenario mod development for HOI4. Is this the guy who thinks 9/11 was fake or was that someone else involved with the development of MDS?
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Mar 27, 2016 14:49
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Wiz posted:So basically: It's easy to learn that a box with a line in it represents a horse, but super-difficult to learn that a horse represents a horse. Tbh at first my mind kept processing derp horse as something black on a white-ish background. I'm not saying the nato symbol is any better, but maybe you guys could make the horse a bit more horsey?
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Mar 27, 2016 14:50
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My first thought was SMG and my second, elephant. So yes, those symbols are pretty terrible and need to be reworked.
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Mar 27, 2016 14:55
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Wiz posted:So basically: It's easy to learn that a box with a line in it represents a horse, but super-difficult to learn that a horse represents a horse. If you have a limited sized canvas the information you display eventually hits a sweetspot where it starts becoming harder to discern the more detailed it is. That is why you are using a horse outline rather than an actual picture of a horse. I don't disagree that NATO counters might not be the best thing ever, but they are in that sweetspot for the size of counters you guys are using where they portray information that's easily discernible. And I will agree with the posters before that it took me a second to figure out the horse outline is actually a horse outline and not an outline of something else, because it's small enough that it isn't immediately obvious the horse is a horse if you don't know it beforehand. Imagine if the counters you guys were using were half the size they are now. The horse one would be horrible, but the NATO one would still be usable. Right now the horse is usable, but I would say it would benefit a lot if it were bigger than it is currently.
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Mar 27, 2016 15:04
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John Charity Spring posted:Is this the guy who thinks 9/11 was fake or was that someone else involved with the development of MDS? I vaguely remember hearing something like that? I'm pretty sure he's the one who has been one of the Paradox forums' most notorious old guard prima donnas and has abandoned and then come back to the project multiple times. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure that the Darkest Hour version basically never worked despite years of "development", and I think the last time I actually played a workable MDS mod was back in the HOI2:DD days.
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Mar 27, 2016 15:07
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Wiz posted:So basically: It's easy to learn that a box with a line in it represents a horse, but super-difficult to learn that a horse represents a horse. I'd argue that teaching someone who is able intellectually able to play HoI4 PDX-Nato symbols would be an investment of 5min tops, that will pay dividends very quickly because people will be able to tell the difference between their units faster (+ at least for me, better immersion in the wargame), while the little icons might be a tad more intuitive, but they make it much harder to play the game. Therefore I think that NATO counters are the superior design. But who cares, let the unwashed masses play with little icons and despair, as long as I can have my NATO counters.
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Mar 27, 2016 15:15
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Riso posted:My first thought was SMG and my second, elephant. What would the NATO counter for war elephant be, anyway?
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Mar 27, 2016 15:28
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Vlad Antlerkov posted:What would the NATO counter for war elephant be, anyway?  Big, intimidating. Utterly useless.
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Mar 27, 2016 15:30
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I'm sure all soldier models can be made to look less thin, donkey sprites touched up to be more horse like, and Soviet counters added all for the low low price of $3.99 at launch.
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Mar 27, 2016 15:32
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Come on look at the business was model, this is all day one territory folks.
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Mar 27, 2016 15:33
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a small donkey in the middle of a miniscule icon is something you need to zoom in or squint to understand what it actually is. A white square with a line crossing diagonally has a clear, objective meaning. It takes as long to understand has it takes to mouse over and see what it means and after 15 minutes you'll know fully well what all icons are meant to be. meanwhile you're clicking around basically hoping the heavy tank unit you're sending forward isn't a light tank brigade or that you're assaulting Stalingrad with assault troops instead of the donkey cavalry.
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Mar 27, 2016 16:33
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cool and good posted:Man, why do people still respond to mans because i am the voice of the people. i am the voice of counters. i am the voice of more EU4 DLC. i am the voice of Rome 2.
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Mar 27, 2016 16:34
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If you'd asked me before I played HOI3 I would have said I prefer sprites but the nato counters take not long at all to learn and convey information more cleanly than pictures once you've decoded them. I think the pdox argument is that you can learn to decode the pictures too, which is true, but I'd rather play with the boxes with lines than pictures I have to squint at. It's a good thing they're both in the game!
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Mar 27, 2016 16:48
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Yeah, the NATO counter is visually distinct, something that I can easily identify with a quick glance. The horse picture is a meaningless grey blob unless I actually focus on it.
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Mar 27, 2016 16:49
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Yeah, with that picture on my phone (which is a moot point, considering I won't be playing HoI IV on it), it's hard to make out the top image over the bottom, just because I have to zoom the picture in more to see the horse symbol clearer. Of course I can't read NATO-counters so the bottom is as illegible as the top. 
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Mar 27, 2016 16:54
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Drone posted:I vaguely remember hearing something like that? I'm pretty sure he's the one who has been one of the Paradox forums' most notorious old guard prima donnas and has abandoned and then come back to the project multiple times. Meanwhile I'm pretty sure that the Darkest Hour version basically never worked despite years of "development", and I think the last time I actually played a workable MDS mod was back in the HOI2:DD days. Surely you are mistaking him for the greatest drama queen, novapaddy.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:04
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Wiz posted:So basically: It's easy to learn that a box with a line in it represents a horse, but super-difficult to learn that a horse represents a horse. It's the same arguement of graphics vs ascii. NATO counters compress information very well and make it immediately recognizable. The first thing I'm doing in HOI4 is finding a mod that replaces Hitler with Schwarzenegger and another mod that makes all my dudes do the push up animation 24/7 and conquering the world.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:05
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uPen posted:The first thing I'm doing in HOI4 is finding a mod that replaces Hitler with Schwarzenegger and another mod that makes all my dudes do the push up animation 24/7 and conquering the world. I welcome and seek your ideas, but do not bring me small ideas; bring me big ideas to match our future. My relationship to power and authority is that I'm all for it. People need somebody to watch over them. Ninety-five percent of the people in the world need to be told what to do and how to behave. Strength does not come from winning. Your struggles develop your strengths. When you go through hardships and decide not to surrender, that is strength. For me life is continuously being hungry. The meaning of life is not simply to exist, to survive, but to move ahead, to go up, to achieve, to conquer.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:17
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Westminster System posted:Surely you are mistaking him for the greatest drama queen, novapaddy. Yep, that's the one, my bad. Though I forget why he was a drama queen.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:18
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Drone posted:Yep, that's the one, my bad. Well he quit and came back a few times, railed against moderating at some point, thought that his inability to convert a mod was a conspiracy over not getting access to beta patch documentation that didn't even exist or something like that, you know, the usual. That latter bit im fuzzy on but it was something to do with a mod conversion. Just loads of random stuff really, paradox standard fare.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:21
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uPen posted:It's the same arguement of graphics vs ascii. NATO counters compress information very well and make it immediately recognizable. dolph lundgren as the Soviet leader and Andre the Giant as France's bullwart against fascism.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:23
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