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Mans posted:because i am the voice of the people. i am the voice of counters. i am the voice of more EU4 DLC. i am the voice of Rome 2. i take it back. I take it all back
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Mar 27, 2016 17:34
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Hahah holy gently caress that post was serious.  Get a pair of eyes.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:34
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The real question is when is a Tabletop Simulator inspired version of HoI coming out where you issues commands by pushing the NATO counters around a table map with a crook?
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Mar 27, 2016 17:41
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Absolutely nothing would make me happier right now than the surprise removal of NATO counters. You blew it you weirdos.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:43
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I decided to photoshop the horse to see if changing its brightness/colours would make it easier to recognize:
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Mar 27, 2016 17:49
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How do NATO counters add to immersion when NATO didn't exist in WW2?
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Mar 27, 2016 17:53
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PhantomZero posted:How do NATO counters add to immersion when NATO didn't exist in WW2? Correct, Paradox should implement an actual map overview. 
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Mar 27, 2016 17:57
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I just like seeing my militant giants stomp all over the lands of my enemies.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:57
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zedprime posted:The real question is when is a Tabletop Simulator inspired version of HoI coming out where you issues commands by pushing the NATO counters around a table map with a crook? I absolutely cannot loving wait for VR mapgames where you do this. Maybe not using a crook, necessarily, but standing in an actual war room with a bunch of different maps on the walls, cigar smoke filling the air, people coming and going, actually getting handed paper documents with reports and poo poo on them, junior officers celebrating at victories, the atmosphere becoming more and more grim as the enemy front moves closer and closer to your capital...
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Mar 27, 2016 17:57
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PhantomZero posted:How do NATO counters add to immersion when NATO didn't exist in WW2? I think US would use similar counters before... But of course Soviet Union and Germany wouldn't.
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Mar 27, 2016 17:58
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Bundle of Keys posted:I decided to photoshop the horse to see if changing its brightness/colours would make it easier to recognize: Alright, I finally was able to see the horse when the colors were inverted. Prior I didn't really know what the gently caress.
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Mar 27, 2016 18:00
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i hope they have nato counters for stellaris e: and rome 2, when that comes out
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Mar 27, 2016 18:01
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Finally I can say for sure that this is a mature community, given the number of people with eyesight problems.
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Mar 27, 2016 18:11
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Bundle of Keys posted:I decided to photoshop the horse to see if changing its brightness/colours would make it easier to recognize: Yeah, with inverted colours you have enough contrast to actually see the horse's legs. In the regular icons the contrast is low enough and their size is small enough that unless you'll looking at the icon close up the legs just disappear and you need to double check to make sure what it is that you're looking at.
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Mar 27, 2016 18:21
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Koramei posted:i hope they have nato counters for stellaris
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Mar 27, 2016 18:23
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NATO counters rule! at the depressed horse.
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Mar 27, 2016 18:29
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Weren't NATO counters based on existing and commonly-used symbols in France/UK/US that ultimately descended from the Napoleonic era?
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Mar 27, 2016 18:38
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Sharzak posted:I absolutely cannot loving wait for VR mapgames where you do this. Maybe not using a crook, necessarily, but standing in an actual war room with a bunch of different maps on the walls, cigar smoke filling the air, people coming and going, actually getting handed paper documents with reports and poo poo on them, junior officers celebrating at victories, the atmosphere becoming more and more grim as the enemy front moves closer and closer to your capital... Was it RUSE where you could actually zoom out and see the room your map was in? That'd be a cool concept to flesh out, especially if dropping your controller causes you to accidentally nuke the Bonin Islands instead of Hiroshima.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:00
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The people ITT having a meltdown over a horse and whinging that it's some arcane symbol they can't see are hilarious.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:02
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AdjectiveNoun posted:The people ITT having a meltdown over a horse and whinging that it's some arcane symbol they can't see are hilarious. It's not an arcane symbol you have to decipher in order to unlock its secrets, but it tries to cram a bit too much detail for its own good. I don't mind visual counters in place of symbolic NATO ones, but them being visual markers they have to be, well, not hard to see. The others might not be as bad, I haven't looked at them closely, but the horse one at that zoom level definitely is.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:19
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Wiz posted:So basically: It's easy to learn that a box with a line in it represents a horse, but super-difficult to learn that a horse represents a horse. Your pixel art looks like rear end, hope that helps
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Mar 27, 2016 19:20
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I think paradox should use Russian/Warsaw-pact symbols as NATO counters are a form of imperialism.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:28
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Darkrenown posted:(Also I picked the Mao portrait we used, it made more sense to me to use an iconic picture of a well-known leader rather than a more accurate but less recognisable one) It'd help if the portrait didn't make him look like an alien. Also I barely feel human, pre-order cancelled, console gaming etc
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Mar 27, 2016 19:29
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Could we instead just get a unit number and coordinate readout from the game? I would like to have to assemble a real life map of Europe with small model tanks/infantry/etc and move them with a shuffle board stick.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:33
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YF-23 posted:It's not an arcane symbol you have to decipher in order to unlock its secrets, but it tries to cram a bit too much detail for its own good. I don't mind visual counters in place of symbolic NATO ones, but them being visual markers they have to be, well, not hard to see. The others might not be as bad, I haven't looked at them closely, but the horse one at that zoom level definitely is. That is pretty much the only zoom level you will ever see it at on the map, as the counters don't change in size depending on zoom level.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:37
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Seriously, it's fine if you guys prefer NATO counters, but assuming that everyone in the world will find 'box with line' the most intuitive representation of a cavalry unit is pretty silly.Mehrunes posted:Your pixel art looks like rear end, hope that helps I'm sure that if you work really hard at it, one day you too will be able to understand that a picture of a horse is, in fact, able to represent a horse.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:39
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NATO counters are worse than Hitler. This discussion is pretty dumb since, as they said many times, HOI4 will have grog counters as an option.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:46
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Wiz posted:Seriously, it's fine if you guys prefer NATO counters, but assuming that everyone in the world will find 'box with line' the most intuitive representation of a cavalry unit is pretty silly. But no one is saying that you shouldn't have picture icons. Or even that they shouldn't be default. Just that NATO icons are cool. (Also, those who use sad horse icons are illiterates who lack taste and distinction.  )
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Mar 27, 2016 19:46
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Wiz posted:Seriously, it's fine if you guys prefer NATO counters, but assuming that everyone in the world will find 'box with line' the most intuitive representation of a cavalry unit is pretty silly. But it doesn't have to be intuitive? You could just read what the unit is and then remember that a box with one diagonal line is cavalry  It's about as intuitive as figuring out which silhouette you're looking at for naval units, surely?
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Mar 27, 2016 19:48
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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:But it doesn't have to be intuitive? You could just read what the unit is and then remember that a box with one diagonal line is cavalry The argument was that NATO counters are superior in every way. I find that argument silly, because it definitely takes longer to learn what combination of box/line represents what than 'horse = cavalry'. Once you learn them they're obviously fine, and there is some merit to the argument that they scale well to small sizes, but if you put someone who hasn't ever seen a NATO counter before in front of HOI4 they're gonna find the picture icons more intuitive.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:51
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I think you're all glossing over the biggest problem, which is that you can't disable the awful loving models in the first place.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:56
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I hope that in any event the visual icons will be reworked where needed to be more discernible, and also that the horse one's the only one that suffers from invisible leg syndrome.GrossMurpel posted:I think you're all glossing over the biggest problem, which is that you can't disable the awful loving models in the first place. The pushups though
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Mar 27, 2016 19:58
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Wiz posted:The argument was that NATO counters are superior in every way. I find that argument silly, because it definitely takes longer to learn what combination of box/line represents what than 'horse = cavalry'. Once you learn them they're obviously fine, and there is some merit to the argument that they scale well to small sizes, but if you put someone who hasn't ever seen a NATO counter before in front of HOI4 they're gonna find the picture icons more intuitive. Yeah that's fair enough, and it's definitely Paradox's strength that you hide the groggy poo poo away as options.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:58
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Wiz posted:Seriously, it's fine if you guys prefer NATO counters, but assuming that everyone in the world will find 'box with line' the most intuitive representation of a cavalry unit is pretty silly. Wiz posted:The argument was that NATO counters are superior in every way. I find that argument silly, because it definitely takes longer to learn what combination of box/line represents what than 'horse = cavalry'. Once you learn them they're obviously fine, and there is some merit to the argument that they scale well to small sizes, but if you put someone who hasn't ever seen a NATO counter before in front of HOI4 they're gonna find the picture icons more intuitive. The basic NATO counters, by themselves, are not more intuitive, no one denies that a picture of a horse is easier to understand as cavalry than [ / ]. But [ / ] is a much cleaner symbol than a horse icon and *in my own personal experience* the NATO icon language was easy for me to learn. The intuitive part comes from the fact they they combine cleanly: if you see and X and O superimposed you know its mechanized, if you see an X with wheels it has trucks, and if you see an artillery dot with wheels you know it's self-propelled, etc.
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Mar 27, 2016 19:58
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The Paradox Forums are coming from inside the thread!GrossMurpel posted:I think you're all glossing over the biggest problem, which is that you can't disable the awful loving models in the first place. The models look totally fine though?
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Mar 27, 2016 20:01
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I liked the inverted mock-up someone posted. I think the white on brown is harder to "read" than the black on white. EDIT: Can I just mod the game so all the units are the push-up models? I also want to replace the mushroom cloud model with a stack of men doing push-ups instead.
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Mar 27, 2016 20:02
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Drone posted:The Paradox Forums are coming from inside the thread! Here's a mockup of my suggested military symbology in a ready to use OOB! 
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Mar 27, 2016 20:07
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Actually, if the horse icon is hard to read, why not just adopt the knight icon from chess?
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Mar 27, 2016 20:07
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Wiz posted:
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Mar 27, 2016 20:12
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Epinephrine posted:Actually, if the horse icon is hard to read, why not just adopt the knight icon from chess? It's not.
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Mar 27, 2016 20:24
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