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Dabir posted:Don't engage with the single biggest argument in favour of antisemitism itt, just tell him to gently caress off and move on with your life. Oh poo poo you just said there are arguments in favor of antisemitism! Don't get struck by TIC's windmilling arms.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:19
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The Insect Court posted:*Farrrt. Exhausted gasping rings out. FARRRRRRT. A veritable waterfall of textual diarrhea continues on from TIC's I wish I could say I'm sorry. Yardbomb fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 22:20
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SedanChair posted:Oh poo poo you just said there are arguments in favor of antisemitism! Don't get struck by TIC's windmilling arms. The only one of something is by definition the biggest, but ofc he doesn't need that to manage it because he is a massive fuckstick
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Mar 28, 2016 22:21
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captainblastum posted:This is the question that I'd like to hear an answer for: To be fair, I believe that the percent of Roma killed during the Holocaust was less than the percent of Jews killed, though in both cases the percent was huge so it's kind of a moot point.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:28
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Haha this is like someone whining about growing antisemitism then providing a link to some wacko's twitter who talks about area 51 and jews colluding with ISIS that has 15 followers as proof that it's a huge threat that needs vast amounts of money thrown at it along with multiple watchdog groups keeping an eye out.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:47
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Dabir posted:Don't engage with the single biggest argument in favour of antisemitism itt, just tell him to gently caress off and move on with your life. He isn't even Jewish iirc
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Mar 29, 2016 00:53
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Mag-loving-nificent.
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Mar 29, 2016 01:02
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Please don't get the Israel thread locked, guys! If you don't feel like someone is worth giving a decent response to, then just don't give them a response at all, instead of wasting an entire page in outright mocking them. If Israel discussion gets banned in D&D again because people can't resist going on a spree of awful posts every time certain posters stick their heads in, then you're going to have a hard time posting any criticism of Israel here! To get back on topic, the Western Wall deal looks to be endangered; Netanyahu is showing clear signs of backing down in the face of Orthodox resistance. Netanyahu has also backed down in the diplomatic crunch with Brazil; he's finally withdrawn Dani Dayan's appointment there and appointed him as consul to New York instead. Netanyahu is also losing ground in a big oil/gas drilling deal he's been pushing - the courts are blocking it and refusing to let it through unless the provision that no future Knesset can alter it is dropped.
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Mar 29, 2016 02:44
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Eu Diplomat: EU is against BDS https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-settlement-goods-welcome-europe-says-eu-envoy There's been some discussion ITT about why people don't hold everyone else to the same standards they hold Israel - the double-standards indicator of antisemitism. That's already mostly been addressed but given the reaction in the EU and the US to BDS, how about we pose the question somewhat differently? Why is Israel not held to the same standards as other nations? When Iraq invaded and occupied Kuwait, a global coalition forced it out and destroyed Iraq. It then placed Iraq under years of brutal sanctions. In 2003, it was invaded again and the government destroyed. Now, aside from the rise of the likes of ISIS as a direct result of this, why hasn't Israel been held to the same standards as Iraq in the last 50 years?
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Mar 29, 2016 05:03
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Here's a rather odd story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...on-t-exist.html I'll avoid most of the commentary that is obviously seething at the back of my head and just say that I think it would be a good thing if western nations will try to figure out a way to actually improve the economic and material conditions in the countries they deliver aid to instead of just distributing the money willy-nilly.
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Mar 29, 2016 08:48
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Here's a rather odd story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...on-t-exist.html Christ that article is awful. Can't decide if this 'palace' costs £8m or £9m. Seems to be huge leaps between aid money and directly spending it on palaces and 'terrorists' (apparently anyone rotting in an Israeli prison). It says the palace is being built in 'Sudra'. It means 'Surda, Ramallah' and is a government building. You can find more details about it here - http://www.pecdar.org/etemplate.php?id=840. What's silly is £8m or £9m for a government building is practically nothing - does it come from foreign aid? Who knows? What were the terms of the foreign aid? Who knows. Because you're reading the Daily Mail. e: in fact if it is from foreign aid I would guess it's tied up with the aid description as the PECDAR website is hideously broken in Arabic and ongoing projects only listed in English - http://www.pecdar.org/etemplate.php?id=840 ^^ - Half-Palestinian Brit already a better journalist than anyone at the Daily Mail. Hong XiuQuan fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 12:44
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gently caress if I knew. What I do know is that foreign governments being shown to provide care packages to convicted murderers of the unambiguously naughty kind (specifically the guys who murdered the Fogel family) has the potential of becoming a PR nightmare for Israeli human rights groups who receive a lot of funding from those governments as well.
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Mar 29, 2016 13:02
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emanresu tnuocca posted:gently caress if I knew. What I do know is that foreign governments being shown to provide care packages to convicted murderers of the unambiguously naughty kind (specifically the guys who murdered the Fogel family) has the potential of becoming a PR nightmare for Israeli human rights groups who receive a lot of funding from those governments as well. You do know that the Daily Mail is an immensely unreliable source with a serious mad-on for 'handouts to shifty foreign scroungers', right?
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Mar 29, 2016 13:24
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emanresu tnuocca posted:gently caress if I knew. What I do know is that foreign governments being shown to provide care packages to convicted murderers of the unambiguously naughty kind (specifically the guys who murdered the Fogel family) has the potential of becoming a PR nightmare for Israeli human rights groups who receive a lot of funding from those governments as well. Can you show me where that article has illustrated that 'foreign governments [ie Britain] [have been] shown to provide care packages to convicted murderers of the unambiguously naughty kind'? Also how exactly does this impact eg Btselem?
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Mar 29, 2016 13:26
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Can you show me where that article has illustrated that 'foreign governments [ie Britain] [have been] shown to provide care packages to convicted murderers of the unambiguously naughty kind'? quote:Among them are Amjad and Hakim Awad, cousins who killed Ehud and Ruth Fogel and their three children in their West Bank home in 2011. It is estimated that Amjad alone may have been paid up to £16,000 from the fund so far. So seemingly at the very least it was true up to two years ago idk? BTselem and BTS have been at the center of an orchestrated smear campaign as you obviously know, a somewhat recurring 'allegation' thrown their way is that they do not serve the interests of Israel but rather those of their foreign benefactors, part of their response was that it's absurd to view foreign european governments and funds as hostile to Israel, now this can be brought up as a counterpoint.
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Mar 29, 2016 13:45
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emanresu tnuocca posted:So seemingly at the very least it was true up to two years ago idk? I repeat, in case you didn't read my post - the Daily Mail are lying, xenophobic shitheads, and should never be used as a primary source. Either find someone else reporting this (using their own investigation, rather than 'the Daily Mail reports that...'), or assume the story is either severely distorted or completely fabricated.
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Mar 29, 2016 13:49
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emanresu tnuocca posted:gently caress if I knew. What I do know is that foreign governments being shown to provide care packages to convicted murderers of the unambiguously naughty kind (specifically the guys who murdered the Fogel family) has the potential of becoming a PR nightmare for Israeli human rights groups who receive a lot of funding from those governments as well. I dunno, having a terrorist as Prime Minister has the potential of being a PR nightmare too, but Israel didn't have any problems with it.
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Mar 29, 2016 14:02
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Darth Walrus posted:I repeat, in case you didn't read my post - the Daily Mail are lying, xenophobic shitheads, and should never be used as a primary source. Either find someone else reporting this (using their own investigation, rather than 'the Daily Mail reports that...'), or assume the story is either severely distorted or completely fabricated. Well, apparently the story was originally based on a report by "Palestinian Media Watch" (an Israeli hasbara outfit basically) from 2011 and there might have actually been further monitoring and restrictions placed on PA expenditure of aid money back in 2014, though this might also be generally bullshit as I didn't try to verify the claim in other sources yet. The dfid basically denies everything reported in the mail: http://www.investinuk.net/news/media-reports-uk-aid-projects-setting-record-straight Regardless, the veracity of this whole thing might not be as relevant as you might think as it has already started making the rounds in the Israeli social media.
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Mar 29, 2016 14:04
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The basic accusation - that the PA pays money to the families of convicted terrorists - is basically true. Or, to be more precise, money is paid to "prisoners" and their families, where the definition of "prisoner" is "anyone imprisoned in the occupation's prisons as a result of his participation in the struggle against the occupation". I'm unable to find the full text of the law in question or a quote from from a neutral source, so there may be caveats or exceptions the think-tank that translated it decided to omit, but considering the context in which that law exists (some of which is hinted at by the text of that definition) I doubt there's an "unless the occupation accused them of something really bad" exception.emanresu tnuocca posted:Regardless, the veracity of this whole thing might not be as relevant as you might think as it has already started making the rounds in the Israeli social media. This might not be as significant as you might think, since the story is quite old, and has already made the rounds at least twice in the past. Besides, Israeli support of human rights abuses has never gotten in the way of foreign aid. There are also the issues of Israeli support for terrorists and people who commit war crimes, as well as the deliberately skewed situation that leads to injustices even there - for example, the focus on convicted terrorists is a deliberate effort to forestall any equivalences because there are no convicted Israeli terrorists sitting in PA jails (because the PA is not allowed to prosecute Israeli citizens, even within the West Bank) and distract away from Israel's practice of administrative detention (where Palestinians can be imprisoned without trial).
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Mar 29, 2016 14:42
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Dabir posted:Don't engage with the single biggest argument in favour of antisemitism itt, just tell him to gently caress off and move on with your life. I hope I am misreading you here, because unless you are saying that TIC is the biggest arguer for anti-semitism (which he is, the way this guy treats the holocaust is disturbing), that statement is even dumber than anything TIC usually pukes out here. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 29, 2016 15:26
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Main Paineframe posted:I dunno, having a terrorist as Prime Minister has the potential of being a PR nightmare too, but Israel didn't have any problems with it. Don't forget Yitzhak Shamir, the terrorist who ordered the assassination of Folke Bernadotte, the Swedish Schindler. Or the terrorist Rabin who ordered the Lydda death march, killing roughly 300 civilians. Or Ariel Sharon, who oversaw the slaughter of Sabra and Shatila. Edit: quote:BTselem and BTS have been at the center of an orchestrated smear campaign as you obviously know, a somewhat recurring 'allegation' thrown their way is that they do not serve the interests of Israel but rather those of their foreign benefactors, part of their response was that it's absurd to view foreign european governments and funds as hostile to Israel, now this can be brought up as a counterpoint. This makes me wonder. Obviously, the full-on attack on the Israeli left is clearly a witchhunt designed to purge the Left out of the mainstream and to remove even the desultory obstacles that the last vestiges of liberal democracy place on Israel's human rights abuses so I imagine that truth or reason is of very little value in such a campaign. However, there has to be some awareness on the parts of these demagogues that the PA is there for Israel's benefit, right? I mean, the entire purpose of the PA is to outsource Israel's dirty work to the natives and thus to ensure Israeli control over the OT with minimal cost. Do you think they just brush this aside for the sake of scapegoating and demonizing leftists and Palestinians or do you believe they're so deep down the rabbit hole they actually consider the PA to be Israel's enemy? FreshlyShaven fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 15:44
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Nosfereefer posted:I hope I am misreading you here, because unless you are saying that TIC is the biggest arguer for anti-semitism (which he is, the way this guy treats the holocaust is disturbing), that statement is even dumber than anything TIC usually pukes out here. It was obviously meant in jest, but yes, no need to give ammunition to those who see anti-Semites behind every bush.
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Mar 29, 2016 18:24
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Cugel the Clever posted:It was obviously meant in jest, but yes, no need to give ammunition to those who see anti-Semites behind every bush. I'm guessing it was a bad joke, but anti-semitism is a real loving thing, and most of the arguments surrounding this poo poo is just trivializing unimaginable human suffering.
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Mar 29, 2016 18:32
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FreshlyShaven posted:This makes me wonder. Obviously, the full-on attack on the Israeli left is clearly a witchhunt designed to purge the Left out of the mainstream and to remove even the desultory obstacles that the last vestiges of liberal democracy place on Israel's human rights abuses so I imagine that truth or reason is of very little value in such a campaign. However, there has to be some awareness on the parts of these demagogues that the PA is there for Israel's benefit, right? I mean, the entire purpose of the PA is to outsource Israel's dirty work to the natives and thus to ensure Israeli control over the OT with minimal cost. Do you think they just brush this aside for the sake of scapegoating and demonizing leftists and Palestinians or do you believe they're so deep down the rabbit hole they actually consider the PA to be Israel's enemy? It's the Palestinian Authority, so not only is it obviously hostile and antisemitic it's also fake cause as we all know Palestinians aren't real. On top of all of that Mahmoud Abbas has a PhD in holocaust denial, doncha know?
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Mar 29, 2016 18:50
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FreshlyShaven posted:This makes me wonder. Obviously, the full-on attack on the Israeli left is clearly a witchhunt designed to purge the Left out of the mainstream and to remove even the desultory obstacles that the last vestiges of liberal democracy place on Israel's human rights abuses so I imagine that truth or reason is of very little value in such a campaign. However, there has to be some awareness on the parts of these demagogues that the PA is there for Israel's benefit, right? I mean, the entire purpose of the PA is to outsource Israel's dirty work to the natives and thus to ensure Israeli control over the OT with minimal cost. Do you think they just brush this aside for the sake of scapegoating and demonizing leftists and Palestinians or do you believe they're so deep down the rabbit hole they actually consider the PA to be Israel's enemy? The PA exists for the benefit of the current Israeli government in maintaining, more or less, the current status quo. Many of the people pushing the anti-PA line aren't big fans of either the current Israeli government or the current status quo, though to be fair, pretty much no one's happy with the current status quo. The people who want to annex the West Bank and/or expel the Palestinians obviously want the PA gone, since Israel/Palestine cooperation is just an obstacle to them. Also, there are a lot of political situations where someone has to be blamed and the only real choices for the blame are "the Israeli government" or "the PA", so it's obviously very politically convenient to pin the blame on the PA. For example, the constant failure of the Israeli government and the PA to negotiate a peace deal? Merely evidence that the Palestinians are just lying about peace when they really want to destroy Israel! The recent wave of largely spontaneous terrorist attacks apparently unaffiliated with any group or organization? Clearly the PA, while pretending to be peaceful, is secretly inciting the people into attacking Israel! The beauty of this is that, since they're blaming someone else, they don't have to change anything about Israel's policies - all they have to do to fix the problem is bully and threaten that someone else even harder. After all, if the failure of peace is solely due to dishonest Palestinians not wanting peace, then there's no need to make compromises or back down on red lines in the negotiations! If the terrorism is actually being caused by the PA, then Israel can just lean on the PA to make it stop. It's a nice easy answer that solves all problems without actually having to give anything up.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:05
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Eu Diplomat: EU is against BDS Eh, we did that stuff to Iraq, but it was also a really bad idea and we shouldn't have. I don't think it's a good idea to levy such heavy sanctions on Israel it results in a bunch of people dying or being forced into poverty, much less going to war with them. The best "punishment" is to just cease aid and maybe institute sanctions for stuff that isn't necessary for human life.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:36
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Ytlaya posted:Eh, we did that stuff to Iraq, but it was also a really bad idea and we shouldn't have. I don't think it's a good idea to levy such heavy sanctions on Israel it results in a bunch of people dying or being forced into poverty, much less going to war with them. The best "punishment" is to just cease aid and maybe institute sanctions for stuff that isn't necessary for human life. My point was less that it was a good idea and more prodding the framing of discussion :P What you've just stated is basically the BDS movement boycott (settlement goods), divest (from Israeli companies and others complicit in settlements) and sanctions (use economic levers on the occupying state). A weapons sanction alone could probably move mountains. No need to go as far as banning graphite and medicine!
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Mar 29, 2016 20:54
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Eu Diplomat: EU is against BDS I think you answered your own question. Both practically and ethically, what was done to Iraq was wrong. Doing the same to Israel under the reasoning of applying the same standards would just result in repeated mistakes. FreshlyShaven posted:Don't forget Yitzhak Shamir, the terrorist who ordered the assassination of Folke Bernadotte, the Swedish Schindler. Or the terrorist Rabin who ordered the Lydda death march, killing roughly 300 civilians. Or Ariel Sharon, who oversaw the slaughter of Sabra and Shatila. I just read about this and what the actual poo poo, Lehi.
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Mar 30, 2016 08:36
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:I think you answered your own question. Both practically and ethically, what was done to Iraq was wrong. Doing the same to Israel under the reasoning of applying the same standards would just result in repeated mistakes. I don't believe in tough sanctions because I'm a bleeding-heart but clearly the US, EU etc do. CF Iran. The point about double-standards stands.
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Mar 30, 2016 10:01
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Hong XiuQuan posted:I don't believe in tough sanctions because I'm a bleeding-heart but clearly the US, EU etc do. CF Iran. The point about double-standards stands. I don't think it's very fruitful to just point out double standards in foreign policy without making an argument about what it means.
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Mar 30, 2016 10:49
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Speaking realistically a boycott of Israel is not going to cause a humanitarian crisis.
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Mar 30, 2016 12:21
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I'd say the people living in a nominal democracy (at least the full participants in that society) bear a greater responsibility for the actions of the government that represents them than the people of a country under the yoke of despotism, especially when they keep electing terrible people. Maybe that's why the BDS movement seemed to have more effect on South Africa than it does on say, North Korea. And before people ask, yes I agree the same principles apply to the United States though its hegemony makes applying such tactics difficult.
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Mar 30, 2016 12:22
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I'd say there's a difference between a boycott (private individuals and groups refusing to do business with an entity for moral reasons) and sanctions (a government imposing a ban on anyone under their control doing business with that entity, for political reasons).
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Mar 30, 2016 13:22
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Speaking realistically a boycott of Israel is not going to cause a humanitarian crisis. Is the country self-sufficient food-wise? I mean, the population of Israel isn't huge, but the country isn't very big either.
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Mar 30, 2016 18:48
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Is the country self-sufficient food-wise? I mean, the population of Israel isn't huge, but the country isn't very big either. The boycott tends to be of produce from the illegal settlements or companies investing in the settlements. If Israel has to rely on illegal settlement produce for subsistence then it's in very big trouble.
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Mar 30, 2016 19:57
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Lustful Man Hugs posted:Is the country self-sufficient food-wise? I mean, the population of Israel isn't huge, but the country isn't very big either. Speaking a someone who supports BDS, the plan isn't to boycott basic human necessities needed to live such that people will actually die. It's to cause general economic hardship to cause Israel to come to terms.
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Mar 30, 2016 21:45
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Hong XiuQuan posted:The boycott tends to be of produce from the illegal settlements or companies investing in the settlements. If Israel has to rely on illegal settlement produce for subsistence then it's in very big trouble. That's not quite true. While most boycott campaigns have targeted companies operating in the illegal colonies(because the fact that they're clearly violating international law makes them priority targets), BDS targets all Israeli institutions because all (but a few, increasingly endangered) Israeli institutions are complicit in apartheid. From an interview with Omar Barghouti: quote:The artificial and untenable distinction between Israel and ‘the occupation’ is political and ideological; it is not based on practical, legal or moral considerations. It is Israel that international law regards as the occupying power, and therefore, is the party responsible for the construction and maintenance of not just the colonial settlements, but also the whole occupation regime. quote:Speaking a someone who supports BDS, the plan isn't to boycott basic human necessities needed to live such that people will actually die. It's to cause general economic hardship to cause Israel to come to terms. Absolutely. Nobody wants to see famine in Israel, any more than people wanted to see mass death in apartheid South Africa. The idea is to create political, social and economic pressure making apartheid and the occupation untenable, not to lead to fire and ruin. I certainly hope that Israel would rather grant equal rights to the Palestinians than see the collapse of the country.
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Mar 31, 2016 02:19
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Eu Diplomat: EU is against BDS Israel is our friend and the Palestinians aren't, especially post 9/11. 9/11 was probably just about the worst thing that could happen to the Palestinians' cause.
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Mar 31, 2016 06:16
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https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/715260187725209602 https://twitter.com/rulajebreal/status/715332862065582081
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Mar 31, 2016 06:20
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hakimashou posted:Israel is our friend and the Palestinians aren't, especially post 9/11. The first sentence is not factual. The second is but not in the sense you mean. In the same way the malaysian airliner that was destroyed, the tiananmen square massacre, and pretty much any other major news outbreak is bad for the palestinian's cause. It shifts the spotlight from gaza/the west bank and enables opportunistic decayed pieces of poo poo to give the OK on more and more expulsions and forced deportations. Just for clarification you don't honestly think any palestinians had a hand in the planning or execution of 9/11 do you?
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Mar 31, 2016 08:11
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