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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:There are sociology disciplines devoted to intersectionality. But you do understand that the biological concept of sex and the sociological concept of gender are very different and it is very meaningless indeed to attempt to extrapolate gender to Protozoa by veiling it as being the same as sex?
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Mar 28, 2016 22:26
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jivjov posted:So if the social perception of gender is so important, and someone's personal identification is so superficial; it stands to reason that it is better for society as a whole if people's gender identities were respected. As it is superficial to indulge the individual, and of social import overall. It does not stand to reason, no.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:26
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Lichy posted:But you do understand that the biological concept of sex and the sociological concept of gender are very different and it is very meaningless indeed to attempt to extrapolate gender to Protozoa by veiling it as being the same as sex? No you see, I reject your reality and substitute my own, in which everything including sponges, bacteria, and chemical reactions is actually based on identity in general and gender specifically.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:27
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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The Kingfish posted:It does not stand to reason, no. well let's try a different approach then, shall we? How does it harm the social construct that is gender if an individual self-identifies as something other than what their hospital doctor said they were when they were born?
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Mar 28, 2016 22:30
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jivjov posted:well let's try a different approach then, shall we? How does it harm the social construct that is gender if an individual self-identifies as something other than what their hospital doctor said they were when they were born? You are conflating "special snowflake identity" with "transsexual" or "transgender".
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Mar 28, 2016 22:33
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I'm really sure in a calmer mood, we'd quickly see blowfish and his detractors are much more in agreement than in disagreement, and about the remainder, a cool-header productive debate could be had.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:35
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Cingulate posted:I'm really sure in a calmer mood, we'd quickly see blowfish and his detractors are much more in agreement than in disagreement, and about the remainder, a cool-header productive debate could be had. We are, however, on the internet and the only possible discussion is a flamewar.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:36
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jivjov posted:well let's try a different approach then, shall we? How does it harm the social construct that is gender if an individual self-identifies as something other than what their hospital doctor said they were when they were born? Exactly? Gender is a bad social construct, and personal genders do nothing to undermine gender as a force in our society. We should be working to abolish gender, not strengthen its grip. E: You know we aren't talking about misgendering transsexual people right?
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Mar 28, 2016 22:39
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The Kingfish posted:Exactly? Gender is a bad social construct, and personal genders do nothing to undermine gender as a force in our society. We should be working to abolish gender, not strengthen its grip.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:40
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The Kingfish posted:Exactly? Gender is a bad social construct, and personal genders do nothing to undermine gender as a force in our society. We should be working to abolish gender, not strengthen its grip. How is someone dressing androgynously or switching between masculinized and feminized modes of dress "strengthening the grip" of gender? Surely rendering it cosmetic puts it on the same status as hair color, no?
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Mar 28, 2016 22:41
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The Kingfish posted:Exactly? Gender is a bad social construct, and personal genders do nothing to undermine gender as a force in our society. We should be working to abolish gender, not strengthen its grip. If a transgender individual wants to use 'xhe' as a pronoun and someone doesn't want to respect that; that's misgendering.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:42
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jivjov posted:If a transgender individual wants to use 'xhe' as a pronoun and someone doesn't want to respect that; that's misgendering. I'd respect it but in my head I'd also be going "ppfffft", so where does that leave me?
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Mar 28, 2016 22:44
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I think the whole xe/xir thing is absurd but it's not really my place to weigh in on it.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:46
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coming back to the thread title, we should just treat gender like religion in a secular society: should not be trotted out in public~~~ 
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Mar 28, 2016 22:46
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SedanChair posted:I think the whole xe/xir thing is absurd but it's not really my place to weigh in on it. I'm of the opinion that people doing or saying absurd things should be actively educated. Climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, neoliberals (neo liberals), lolbertarians, and xe people who think other people need to actually call them that.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:50
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Amused to Death posted:I'd respect it but in my head I'd also be going "ppfffft", so where does that leave me? Your personal opinions are your own; and don't really factor into it.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:50
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blowfish posted:n-words (neo liberals) This gave you a little thrill, didn't it? Now act all innocent about it.
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Mar 28, 2016 22:54
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blowfish posted:I'm of the opinion that people doing or saying absurd things should be actively educated. Climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, neoliberals (neo liberals), lolbertarians, and xe people who think other people need to actually call them that. blowfish posted:Climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, neoliberals (neo liberals), lolbertarians, and xe people who think other people need to actually call them that
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Mar 28, 2016 22:56
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SedanChair posted:This gave you a little thrill, didn't it? Now act all innocent about it. no its the GBS word filter which also applies to other subforums. type code:you're warped worldview strikes again
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Mar 28, 2016 23:00
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blowfish posted:I'm of the opinion that people doing or saying absurd things should be actively educated. Climate change deniers, anti-vaxxers, neoliberals (neo liberals), lolbertarians, and xe people who think other people need to actually call them that. So we're lumping people with actively harmful and dangerous beliefs in with "being transgender" now?
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Mar 28, 2016 23:00
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Cingulate posted:One of these is not like the other: Sounds like privilege to me.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:01
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jivjov posted:If a transgender individual wants to use 'xhe' as a pronoun and someone doesn't want to respect that; that's misgendering. Ok good to know where you stand. I support that form of misgendering.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:02
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jivjov posted:So we're lumping people with actively harmful and dangerous beliefs in with "being transgender" now? Still conflating trans people with single-person gender identities I guess?
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Mar 28, 2016 23:03
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The Kingfish posted:Ok good to know where you stand. I support that form of misgendering. So you're an rear end then? Why would you support any form of deliberate misgendering? blowfish posted:Still conflating trans people with single-person gender identities I guess? Does them using a different pronoun somehow make them less transgender? Or less deserving of respect and dignity? jivjov fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Mar 28, 2016 |
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Mar 28, 2016 23:04
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blowfish posted:no its the GBS word filter which also applies to other subforums. Ah, my bad. Hard to keep up with that stuff.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:05
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What's the difference? Do you consider being trans to require a diagnosis of a particular disorder by a psychiatrist, and thus you accepting other identities would require their medicalization?
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Mar 28, 2016 23:05
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:Sounds like privilege to me.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:06
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jivjov posted:So you're an rear end then? Why would you support any form of deliberate misgendering? Because I don't believe in using personal genders for the reasons already given.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:07
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The Kingfish posted:Because I don't believe in using personal genders for the reasons already given. So...you're an rear end then. You are actively advocating for deliberately misgendering someone. Your belief on the matter doesn't make their gender identity any less valid.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:08
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The Kingfish posted:Because I don't believe in using personal genders for the reasons already given.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:09
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Cingulate posted:Sorry, what are you saying? The entitling one group to extra respect, based on how they were born, over another. That sounds like someone is being granted privilege.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:09
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jivjov posted:So...you're an rear end then. You are actively advocating for deliberately misgendering someone. Your belief on the matter doesn't make their gender identity any less valid. Their gender identity isn't valid.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:10
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Cingulate posted:The problem is, you're forced (by language) to use something. You don't have the option of simply not specifying it. So what do you pick, the one the other person considers insulting, or an alternative you consider ridiculous? "they/their"
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Mar 28, 2016 23:10
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The Kingfish posted:Their gender identity isn't valid. But I thought gender was a false and damaging construct to begin with.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:11
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The Kingfish posted:Their gender identity isn't valid. And you were declared the world's sole authority on what genders are and aren't valid....when? May I see your credentials?
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Mar 28, 2016 23:13
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SedanChair posted:Ah, my bad. Hard to keep up with that stuff. Also try I ' m g a y C u c k e d/C u c k i n g and every other GBS buzzword 
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Mar 28, 2016 23:14
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There shouldn't even be genders! But in the meantime *looks down to see that somebody has pinned a "GENDER SHERIFF" star on my vest* gently caress!
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Mar 28, 2016 23:15
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Its the "identity" part of their gender identity that isn't valid. The traditional genders are rammed down our throats by culture and society until they are internalized as an essential parts of our personalities. Personal genders are invented by their.. adherents(?) as a form of self-expression. That's why you can ignore personal gender pronounces in a way that you can't ignore traditional pronouns.
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Mar 28, 2016 23:21
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Sulphuric rear end in a top hat posted:The entitling one group to extra respect, based on how they were born, over another. That sounds like someone is being granted privilege. The Kingfish posted:"they/their"
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Mar 28, 2016 23:22
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The Kingfish posted:Its the "identity" part of their gender identity that isn't valid. The traditional genders are rammed down our throats by culture and society until they are internalized as an essential parts of our personalities. Personal genders are invented by their.. adherents(?) as a form of self-expression. So, imposed genders are valid, so long as the imposed upon does no self-defining? In fact, does this principle extend generally?
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Mar 28, 2016 23:23
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