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Karen did nothing wrong.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:21
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I hope Foggy and Marci get back together in season 3.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:23
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Radish posted:The problem is that like in Batman, the nice guy let the law handle it because vigilantes can't be trusted to be judge, jury, and executioner mantra is constantly proven wrong. Frank was totally right in context of the Daredevil universe since the people that Matt stopped just kept killing people while the ones that were killed by someone else did not. The show really needs some examples of Matt's ideology of letting the law do its thing actually working. Fisk is already doing exactly the same thing with nothing stopping him from manipulating the system via bribery and the Hand was only stopped when they were all murdered by Elektra, Stick, and Frank. I know that was partly to make Matt question his ideology but there's nothing on the other side to help him reaffirm it. They really needed to take it one step further and have Punisher kill an innocent guy who he thought was guilty, or something similar. Same thing with Matt. Maybe he beats some guy to a bloody pulp and it turns out it was the wrong guy, or even someone who was trying to help.
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Mar 29, 2016 20:32
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Yeah I get the feeling they really don't want to deal with something like that. They shaped the Punisher up to be this guy who knows exactly what criminals have done (how exactly did he know Grotto killed that old lady?) and also so amazing at killing specific people he can unload a shotgun in a crowded hospital without having to worry about anyone getting hurt other than his mark. It's hard to argue his logic when he's set up like that. Maybe when they do more with his character they'll have a plot where he makes a mistake and has to answer to himself about that and figure out if he's not worse than the people he's targeting. Basically up until halfway through the season I got the feeling the Punisher wanted to go specifically after people he felt were involved in the murder of his family and if a few people got caught in that such as the hospital staff or that marine well, whatever. Since he had already crossed that line he had no personal issue with murdering people he felt deserved it such as the pawn store guy. Then after he was caught by Daredevil they decided that he was going to be straight up a hero, just one that killed people and gave him the super powers to never kill innocents intentionally or accidentally. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Mar 29, 2016 |
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Mar 29, 2016 20:40
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enraged_camel posted:They really needed to take it one step further and have Punisher kill an innocent guy who he thought was guilty, or something similar. Same thing with Matt. Maybe he beats some guy to a bloody pulp and it turns out it was the wrong guy, or even someone who was trying to help. That's a mistake. The Punisher's super power is that he only kills the guilty because he is highly organized with military precision. Yes, it is unreal but that's what makes the dilemma of the Punisher's methods so much more poignant. He always learns everything he can about his targets which is why he wipes them out. Its an easy answer when he is imperfect (that is a no). It is a lot harder when he is perfect with 100% accuracy, which the realm of fiction allows us to explore. It is why I dislike Punisher: Warzone. He would never accidentally kill an undercover cop. Ever. I also felt like they should have shown him using slugs in the hospital, since that would lend more credence to the fact he was careful. But that is such a minor point. It is tempting to have Frank kill an innocent, but that's an easy out. It is better to make the conflict about whether someone can be redeemed or not, deserving of the finality Frank doles out, which sometimes is not clear. Having him kill an innocent focus it on his methods. It shouldn't be about his methods, which are obviously extreme.
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Mar 29, 2016 22:27
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That's from like one story.
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Mar 29, 2016 22:39
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tsob posted:I'm hoping it's the other way round and Matt need's Foggy's help. The show's constant bleating that the law is great and we should go by it kind of falls flat if it only goes the other way round and Matt has to circumvent it at will to gently caress people up, instead of occasionally using it to do so. Him giving that one cop the Punisher's arrest already feels off to me because of it. I kind of hope that season 3 is Kingpin just laying waste to all those around Matt, Foggy, and Karen. Nothing Daredevil tries can stop it, and Foggy is in the crosshairs of losing his nice job and being disbarred. The only thing left to do is pray the rosary and then do the one thing no one expected Daredevil to do, lawyer that poo poo like a Law & Order prosecutor, John Grisham protagonist, and generic legal comedy/drama protagonist merged together and made flesh. Oh poo poo, Matt's rockin' the Matlock suit. Gonna injunction all over your rear end now.
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Mar 29, 2016 23:07
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Gyges posted:I kind of hope that season 3 is Kingpin just laying waste to all those around Matt, Foggy, and Karen. Nothing Daredevil tries can stop it, and Foggy is in the crosshairs of losing his nice job and being disbarred. The only thing left to do is pray the rosary and then do the one thing no one expected Daredevil to do, lawyer that poo poo like a Law & Order prosecutor, John Grisham protagonist, and generic legal comedy/drama protagonist merged together and made flesh. Matlock suit and black wrap mask
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Mar 29, 2016 23:16
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Dapper Dan posted:He always learns everything he can about his targets which is why he wipes them out. That's not necessarily true for the Punisher in the show. He clearly didn't know a lot about the dude who sold child pornography under the counter, but still decided to take him out right away. Dapper Dan posted:It is better to make the conflict about whether someone can be redeemed or not, deserving of the finality Frank doles out, which sometimes is not clear. This aspect annoyed me a bit. There is just no way to judge Frank's moral code because there is no clear indication of how he doles out punishment. Frank goes to crazy lengths to track down Grotto, and then it turns out he's been chasing him for some crime we didn't even know Grotto had committed. When the guy's old-lady-murdering past is first revealed, it's a great way of testing Matt's resolve, but it also makes Frank seem a lot more reasonable. Is he more of an eye-for-an-eye kind of guy or does he kill you for shop lifting? It's not clear. Gyges posted:Oh poo poo, Matt's rockin' the Matlock suit. Gonna injunction all over your rear end now. Yeah, they definitely need to bring back badass lawyer Matt. The Punisher trial was a bit of a cop-out (understandably, but still).
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Mar 29, 2016 23:18
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And More posted:That's not necessarily true for the Punisher in the show. He clearly didn't know a lot about the dude who sold child pornography under the counter, but still decided to take him out right away. Frank was fine with letting a guy clearly dealing in stolen goods and sporting prominent swastika tats keep on breathing. It wasn't until scumbag started talking about a little girl in the same age bracket as Frank's dead daughter that he decided to do some batting practice.
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Mar 29, 2016 23:24
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Gyges posted:I kind of hope that season 3 is Kingpin just laying waste to all those around Matt, Foggy, and Karen. Nothing Daredevil tries can stop it, and Foggy is in the crosshairs of losing his nice job and being disbarred. The only thing left to do is pray the rosary and then do the one thing no one expected Daredevil to do, lawyer that poo poo like a Law & Order prosecutor, John Grisham protagonist, and generic legal comedy/drama protagonist merged together and made flesh. Oh my god I want this
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Mar 29, 2016 23:44
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Gyges posted:Frank was fine with letting a guy clearly dealing in stolen goods and sporting prominent swastika tats keep on breathing. It wasn't until scumbag started talking about a little girl in the same age bracket as Frank's dead daughter that he decided to do some batting practice. On the other hand he was ready to clip an innocent old man who was an ex-marine if he took one step on to his own roof and interrupted Frank's private time.
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Mar 29, 2016 23:58
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Gyges posted:Frank was fine with letting a guy clearly dealing in stolen goods and sporting prominent swastika tats keep on breathing. It wasn't until scumbag started talking about a little girl in the same age bracket as Frank's dead daughter that he decided to do some batting practice. Also, we never see Frank go after genuinely petty criminals in this show. He targets organized crime (of various sorts) and people who have crossed certain big lines. I got the impression he doesn't really need much reason to kill someone, but he doesn't look for petty criminals nor go out of his way to mess them up. If you're not one of his targets, you can probably just stay out of Frank's way.
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Mar 30, 2016 00:01
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tsob posted:On the other hand he was ready to clip an innocent old man who was an ex-marine if he took one step on to his own roof and interrupted Frank's private time.
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Mar 30, 2016 00:02
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odiv posted:Not sure if he was bullshitting, but he definitely said that was a performance for Red's benefit. He was around a corner and away from Daredevil from what I could tell, so out of his sight. And he didn't know Daredevil had super senses. Not to mention that he doesn't come off as someone putting on a performance when he thinks the old guy is about to step on to the roof and puts the gun, loaded and ready up to the door.
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Mar 30, 2016 00:16
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tsob posted:He was around a corner and away from Daredevil from what I could tell, so out of his sight. And he didn't know Daredevil had super senses. Not to mention that he doesn't come off as someone putting on a performance when he thinks the old guy is about to step on to the roof and puts the gun, loaded and ready up to the door. He looks back towards Daredevil when he cocks the gun, and I believe he'd noticed that Daredevil had great hearing already. I want to say Daredevil told Frank the guy was coming, but I could be misremembering. Whether Frank was serious or not is very ambiguous though.
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Mar 30, 2016 00:38
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I don't know why she is acting like killing him was such a big deal. I mean I get why it is for the Kingpin, and that killing a person is a huge deal and all, but.. the guy did take her to a warehouse and threaten to murder her, and only through idiocy gave her a chance of getting a gun. Pretty sure every cop anywhere ever would tell someone "If you get the drop on them and a chance to escape from a kidnapper, always do whatever you can to get away." Like literally even legally nobody would find her guilty of murder. "But he was unarmed!" you can say; well she's not a ninja, nobody expects her to be a ninja, and she had every reason to be in fear for her life - gun or not. She didn't know what he'd do; if he had more guns. If he'd call people with even MORE guns. Long story short she keeps acting like this is a dark secret rather than being worried about it only because Fisk would bash her Goddamn head in over it, which is the real reason she should be worried about it. Gyges posted:He looks back towards Daredevil when he cocks the gun, and I believe he'd noticed that Daredevil had great hearing already. I want to say Daredevil told Frank the guy was coming, but I could be misremembering. Whether Frank was serious or not is very ambiguous though. If he was it was wildly out of character for him from that point forward. Honestly I think that scene was more to mislead the hordes of casual Netflix viewers who don't know poo poo about the Punisher. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Mar 30, 2016 |
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Mar 30, 2016 00:54
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Blazing Ownager posted:Honestly I think that scene was more to mislead the hordes of casual Netflix viewers who don't know poo poo about the Punisher. That's exactly what that and the shootup in the hospital were for. Going back with the "I never target innocents, it was just a show/I was always in control" was just covering their asses for the fans.
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Mar 30, 2016 01:02
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And More posted:That's not necessarily true for the Punisher in the show. He clearly didn't know a lot about the dude who sold child pornography under the counter, but still decided to take him out right away. He did an ocular patdown on him and cleared him as a security threat.
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Mar 30, 2016 01:19
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Rewatching the prison episode, and Fisk mentions that the mother of his two henchmen should "get the red paint indefinitely." I assume that's code for murdering her, but what would he gain by doing so?
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Mar 30, 2016 01:27
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Narcissus1916 posted:Rewatching the prison episode, and Fisk mentions that the mother of his two henchmen should "get the red paint indefinitely." I assume that's code for murdering her, but what would he gain by doing so? Rent paid. She's getting her rent paid indefinitely. 
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Mar 30, 2016 01:31
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jng2058 posted:Rent paid. She's getting her rent paid indefinitely. Goons, amirite?
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Mar 30, 2016 01:35
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And More posted:Yeah, they definitely need to bring back badass lawyer Matt. The Punisher trial was a bit of a cop-out (understandably, but still). I want to see Matt and Foggy go at it, one as the prosecution and the other as the defense.
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Mar 30, 2016 01:37
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enraged_camel posted:I want to see Matt and Foggy go at it, one as the prosecution and the other as the defense. Defenders or season 3, calling it now.
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Mar 30, 2016 01:41
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jng2058 posted:Rent paid. She's getting her rent paid indefinitely. This is why I watch tv with the subtitles on. 
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Mar 30, 2016 01:47
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Blazing Ownager posted:I don't know why she is acting like killing him was such a big deal. The very concept of murdering someone, even in self-defense, can be extremely upsetting or traumatic and this season hints that Karen already has reasons to feel guilty.
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Mar 30, 2016 01:49
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And More posted:That's not necessarily true for the Punisher in the show. He clearly didn't know a lot about the dude who sold child pornography under the counter, but still decided to take him out right away. He wasn't planning on doing any punishing but a child pornagropher sporting neo nazi tats isn't an angel. The Punisher typically ignores small fish like robbery and poo poo like that. He tends to go after very violent criminals that the police can't or won't touch. He's not going to murder you for stealing a candy bar. Non violent crimes he doesn't care about (though pimps and drug dealers are usually fair game). odiv posted:Not sure if he was bullshitting, but he definitely said that was a performance for Red's benefit. Nah he was quite clearly bsing. It was a show for him as he said as DD had no idea about him or his motives and he was exploiting that. The Punisher even comments on this after he moves away from the old man.
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Mar 30, 2016 02:02
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ImpAtom posted:The very concept of murdering someone, even in self-defense, can be extremely upsetting or traumatic and this season hints that Karen already has reasons to feel guilty. Also, she didn't even kill him in self-defense, did she? If I'm remembering the scene correctly, she was pointing the gun at him and they were talking, and when his phone suddenly rang she was startled and pulled the trigger.
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Mar 30, 2016 02:04
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enraged_camel posted:Also, she didn't even kill him in self-defense, did she? If I'm remembering the scene correctly, she was pointing the gun at him and they were talking, and when his phone suddenly rang she was startled and pulled the trigger. He was threatening to kill Matt and Foggy, whom she loves very much, and then he said something like "and THEN we'll kill you, after making you suffer through the violent and tortuous murders of your only friends" at which his phone rang and she plugged him. That was when I finally started liking Karen.
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Mar 30, 2016 02:06
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Dapper Dan posted:Nah he was quite clearly bsing. It was a show for him as he said as DD had no idea about him or his motives and he was exploiting that. The Punisher even comments on this after he moves away from the old man. He comments that the old man was only in danger because of DD and that he cocked the hammer as part of a show, but that's not an admission he was never going to shoot him. He also was definitely around a corner, so there's no way a normal human (which he should think DD was at that point) would be able to see him do so. You can even see him walk back around the corner after the confrontation.
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Mar 30, 2016 02:13
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tsob posted:he cocked the hammer as part of a show, but that's not an admission he was never going to shoot him. Unfortunately I think it's the show that wants to have it both ways. It wants us to be scared for the guy and also people in the hospital, but then later wants us to believe that there wasn't any chance Castle would have hurt them. And the way everything is shot, eh, I dunno if that's the impression I come away with.
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Mar 30, 2016 02:41
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enraged_camel posted:Goons, amirite? Oh my god, that makes entirely more sense.
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Mar 30, 2016 03:41
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tsob posted:He also was definitely around a corner, so there's no way a normal human (which he should think DD was at that point) would be able to see him do so. You can even see him walk back around the corner after the confrontation. Daredevil hears the guy coming and tells Frank and this is how Frank knows that Daredevil hears like really good.
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Mar 30, 2016 04:00
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zoux posted:That's a wooden knife, huh? Obviously. You can tell by the steely glint
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Mar 30, 2016 04:55
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Well, one time Magneto got arrested with a wooden gun painted to look metal, so excuse me for being suspicious of what weapons are made out of.
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Mar 30, 2016 05:34
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I was just poking fun at how the wooden knife is illustrated as reflecting light for some reason 
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Mar 30, 2016 05:52
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Man I only just realised (after reading the SHIELD thread) the biker gang that was murdered in a one off line they bring up as a reason the DA is trying to get the death penalty on frank is probably the group that the mind controlling asgard killed of in SHIELD
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Mar 30, 2016 06:12
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HIJK posted:He was threatening to kill Matt and Foggy, whom she loves very much, and then he said something like "and THEN we'll kill you, after making you suffer through the violent and tortuous murders of your only friends" at which his phone rang and she plugged him. Even if it doesn't quite meet the legal definition of self-defense, I doubt any prosecutor in the US would want to try to take that case to trial. Since Karen had been kidnapped by a known an associate of a crime Kingpin, and killed him in an attempt to escape. Good luck finding a jury willing to convict in that case. And as others have pointed out, most people have a natural aversion to killing someone. Killing someone, even in self-defense, is the kind of hosed up circumstance that can easily give someone PTSD.
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Mar 30, 2016 08:55
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I think the Dogs of Hell are the group that Frank shot at that Matt had to beat up in the awesome hallway fight scene, so they weren't JUST an off-screen entity.
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Mar 30, 2016 10:13
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And of course, Roxxon was also a big part of the first two seasons of Agent Carter.
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Mar 30, 2016 11:14
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