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It turns out democracy in a country full of religious nutters and hillbillies is not necessarily a good idea. Whodve thunk
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Mar 29, 2016 17:16
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I am of course referring to america
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Mar 29, 2016 17:16
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GaussianCopula posted:It was not a good thing, given that the military was the stalwart protector of Atatürk's legacy, especially of secularism. Once the military and administration was purged, Erdogan revealed his true face. Curbing the powers of a military who could topple government with mere memorandums and who engaged in the dirtiest of dirty wars against the Kurds and were keen enough on torture for a long rear end time I think was objectively good
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Mar 29, 2016 17:20
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If you think Erodgan's war on Kurds in the southeast is deplorable I'm not sure how much you could feel positively about the legacy of Turkish military rule
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Mar 29, 2016 17:21
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kustomkarkommando posted:Curbing the powers of a military who could topple government with mere memorandums and who engaged in the dirtiest of dirty wars against the Kurds and were keen enough on torture for a long rear end time I think was objectively good Counterpoint: Erdogan and his AKP are waging open war against the Kurds while making deals with ISIS
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Mar 29, 2016 17:22
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GaussianCopula posted:Counterpoint: Erdogan and his AKP are waging open war against the Kurds while making deals with ISIS The Turkish army, noted friend of the Kurds who deffo didn't smuggle heroin into Europe to fund quasi-fascist death squads and provide military training to domestic Kurdish islamist groups to act as a counterweight to the PKK
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Mar 29, 2016 17:33
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GaussianCopula posted:It was not a good thing, given that the military was the stalwart protector of Atatürk's legacy, especially of secularism. Once the military and administration was purged, Erdogan revealed his true face. The military having influence over civilian affairs is a bad thing, just because Erdogan is poo poo otherwise doesn't change that.
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Mar 29, 2016 17:50
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It's hard to reconcile with what's happening now, but one of the things that brought Erdogan to power originally was making peace with the Kurds. The AKP has been very popular with the Turkish Kurds because of that -- until Daesh happened. Then Erdogan's poll results dropped among that demographics, so he restarted the civil war because he's spiteful like that.
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Mar 29, 2016 23:37
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Cat Mattress posted:It's hard to reconcile with what's happening now, but one of the things that brought Erdogan to power originally was making peace with the Kurds. The AKP has been very popular with the Turkish Kurds because of that -- until Daesh happened. Then Erdogan's poll results dropped among that demographics, so he restarted the civil war because he's spiteful like that. Well, as long as they supported Sultan Erdogan against their common enemy (the military) he was on their side but once they did not longer support him taking over Turkey for good in the last election when they campaigned against his planed presidential system he begun to wage open war against them. Given the experiences of the Arab Spring with regard to leaders that are closer to Islam, I prefer the military every single time.
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Mar 30, 2016 08:48
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http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-%2F%2FEP%2F%2FNONSGML%2BCOMPARL%2BPE-578.822%2B01%2BDOC%2BPDF%2BV0%2F%2FEN This is the newest draft for the new EU Gun directive and its really good, it has fixed pretty much everything that they earlier had wrong, wow. Up next they are going to vote about this, hope it goes through.
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Mar 30, 2016 13:58
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GaussianCopula posted:Well, as long as they supported Sultan Erdogan against their common enemy (the military) he was on their side but once they did not longer support him taking over Turkey for good in the last election when they campaigned against his planed presidential system he begun to wage open war against them. Given the experiences of the Arab Spring with regard to leaders that are closer to Islam, I prefer the military every single time. And yet you are the guy who proposed sending refugees back to him 
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Mar 30, 2016 16:10
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CommieGIR posted:And yet you are the guy who proposed sending refugees back to him I'd would prefer sending refugees back to a more secular Turkey, but you have to play the cards you are dealt.
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Mar 30, 2016 16:15
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GaussianCopula posted:I'd would prefer sending refugees back to a more secular Turkey, but you have to play the cards you are dealt.  "Welp, guess we have to send them back to a despotic dictator. Sorry guys"Do you have any clue how hosed up you sound?
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Mar 30, 2016 16:16
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CommieGIR posted:
You're talking to the dude that unironically supported sinking the boats before. Guess despotic dictator beats undersea grave.
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Mar 30, 2016 16:41
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Freezer posted:You're talking to the dude that unironically supported sinking the boats before. Guess despotic dictator beats undersea grave.  Holy poo poo.
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Mar 30, 2016 16:44
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If Africans had to actually clean up their own problems instead of running away and excepting Europe to shoulder all their burdens, maybe some progress would happen on that continent too.
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Mar 30, 2016 18:47
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Puistokemisti posted:If Africans had to actually clean up their own problems instead of running away and excepting Europe to shoulder all their burdens, maybe some progress would happen on that continent too. It's hard to pick up the pieces of your country after the Belgians cut off your hands and feet for not harvesting enough rubber.
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Mar 30, 2016 18:54
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Greatbacon posted:It's hard to pick up the pieces of your country after the Belgians cut off your hands and feet for not harvesting enough rubber.
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Mar 30, 2016 19:03
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Europeans tried to carry the burdens of africans once, i wonder what went wrong. Anyway is Spain still going for new elections? Its been Months.how long can you go without a functional goverment?
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Mar 30, 2016 19:15
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GaussianCopula posted:I'd would prefer sending refugees back to a more secular Turkey, but you have to play the cards you are dealt. It's amazing to me that you don't think this "solution" of yours could come back around to bite Germany and the rest of Europe in the rear end.
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Mar 30, 2016 19:20
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Majorian posted:It's amazing to me that you don't think this "solution" of yours could come back around to bite Germany and the rest of Europe in the rear end. I don't see how it would, as long as Turkey still has to fulfill all the requirements for visa liberalization, which seems to be the case, there are very few downsides, unless you believe that €6billion earmarked for refugee projects (and never directly given to the Turkish government) is going to make a difference in Erdogan's quest to become Sultan.
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Mar 30, 2016 19:29
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ChainsawCharlie posted:Europeans tried to carry the burdens of africans once, i wonder what went wrong. If Belgium is any guide, almost two years. Also I hope you are being facetious about the first part of your post.
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Mar 30, 2016 19:32
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GaussianCopula posted:I don't see how it would, as long as Turkey still has to fulfill all the requirements for visa liberalization, which seems to be the case, there are very few downsides, unless you believe that €6billion earmarked for refugee projects (and never directly given to the Turkish government) is going to make a difference in Erdogan's quest to become Sultan. *cough cough* Dictator who is destroying the civil liberties of his country and starting violent conflict to fan the flames support him. *cough cough*
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Mar 30, 2016 19:41
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Puistokemisti posted:If Africans had to actually clean up their own problems instead of running away and excepting Europe to shoulder all their burdens, maybe some progress would happen on that continent too. Ah yes the bootstraps theory of international development.
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Mar 30, 2016 19:45
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Dawncloack posted:Also I hope you are being facetious about the first part of your post. Colonialism was described as the white man's burden at one point, you see slavery and stealing all their poo poo was in fact a good thing cos we were civilising them.
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Mar 30, 2016 19:49
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Ah yes, because rolling up uninvited is always a great way to get people to accept you.
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Mar 30, 2016 19:49
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CommieGIR posted:
Is Erdogan mistreating the refugees?
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Mar 30, 2016 19:59
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Doctor Malaver posted:Is Erdogan mistreating the refugees? There have been reports of forced repatriation to Syria and unlawful detention, which only seemed to start round the end of last year... https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/eur44/3022/2015/en/
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Mar 30, 2016 20:03
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Doctor Malaver posted:Is Erdogan mistreating the refugees? I think the greater danger is that Erdogan will continue to stoke anti-ethnic minority/Turkish nationalist flames, which will lead to more authoritarianism from the government, radicalization of opposition factions, intervention from the major wild card that is the military, etc. Having a country on Europe's southeastern borders implode would not be a good thing, especially when they have so many refugees within their borders.
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Mar 30, 2016 20:09
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Greatbacon posted:It's hard to pick up the pieces of your country after the Belgians cut off your hands and feet for not harvesting enough rubber. I know you mean well, but this sort of rhetoric revitalizes the image of Africans as helpless children, foreverially paralysed by their past and dependent on Europe just to survive; they can do quite well on their own, and they can also be the cause of their own problems like anybody else, on account of being human.
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Mar 30, 2016 20:30
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steinrokkan posted:I know you mean well, but this sort of rhetoric revitalizes the image of Africans as helpless children, foreverially paralysed by their past and dependent on Europe just to survive; they can do quite well on their own, and they can also be the cause of their own problems like anybody else, on account of being human. I appreciate the point you are trying to make, and as the poster up thread mentioned, obviously not all of Africa is a poo poo hole and that there are a number of native Africans who are making progress for their countries. It's not all a poo poo hole and not all of the problems on the continent are issues stemming from European colonization. But a vast amount of the destabilization that allowed for current situations to take root are products of colonization, and to claim that Africa and the Middle East just need to pick themselves up by the bootstraps and dust themselves off now that they are free is a pretty disingenuous angle to take.
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Mar 30, 2016 20:45
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GaussianCopula posted:I don't see how it would, as long as Turkey still has to fulfill all the requirements for visa liberalization, which seems to be the case, there are very few downsides, unless you believe that €6billion earmarked for refugee projects (and never directly given to the Turkish government) is going to make a difference in Erdogan's quest to become Sultan. Honestly I am mostly okay with the "give Turkey and Lebanon assloads of money and NGO personnel to defray refugee costs" solution. At least until / unless Erdogan finds a way to screw it up / siphon off an unreasonable amount of the dough. If the refugee centers can be made not poo poo, everybody wins.
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Mar 30, 2016 21:04
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Honestly I am mostly okay with the "give Turkey and Lebanon assloads of money and NGO personnel to defray refugee costs" solution. At least until / unless Erdogan finds a way to screw it up / siphon off an unreasonable amount of the dough.
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Mar 30, 2016 21:42
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A Buttery Pastry posted:*Erdogan uses the eventually semi-permanent Syrian population within his borders as a pretext for reconquering Syria.* Its Erdogan im sure this actually crossed his mind but syria is so hosed up im not sure theres another country in the world worse off.maybe NK.or the country previously known as Liberia.
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Mar 30, 2016 22:01
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Greatbacon posted:It's hard to pick up the pieces of your country after the Belgians cut off your hands and feet for not harvesting enough rubber. *sigh* We just asked them to give us a hand, honest poo poo page in the history books that we'd like to forget about but shouldn't
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Mar 30, 2016 22:39
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Honestly I am mostly okay with the "give Turkey and Lebanon assloads of money and NGO personnel to defray refugee costs" solution. At least until / unless Erdogan finds a way to screw it up / siphon off an unreasonable amount of the dough. Pretty big "if" there, given how much good faith Erdogan seems to be acting in.
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Mar 30, 2016 23:24
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CommieGIR posted:
He does. I think the impasse is being caused by those with empathy debating with those who have none. Lines are being crossed that the other party doesn't even acknowledge exist in the first place.
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Mar 31, 2016 13:32
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Regarde Aduck posted:He does. I think the impasse is being caused by those with empathy debating with those who have none. Lines are being crossed that the other party doesn't even acknowledge exist in the first place. I honestly don't get Euros who are surprised that a certain amount of our population is and always will be psychopaths. Where were they on history class?
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Mar 31, 2016 13:52
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DarkCrawler posted:I honestly don't get Euros who are surprised that a certain amount of our population is and always will be psychopaths. Where were they on history class? You don't need to be psychopath to understand that it's unpractical to treat every human as if he were your neighbor. Even if your compassion would know no bounds your means are limited.
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Mar 31, 2016 14:17
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GaussianCopula posted:You don't need to be psychopath to understand that it's unpractical to treat every human as if he were your neighbor. Even if your compassion would know no bounds your means are limited. ...and that's why you advocate sinking boats of refugees. Got it. I've got news for you: You're a psychopath.
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Mar 31, 2016 15:15
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