Pacific Northwest Thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Pacific Northwest Thread

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

BraveUlysses posted:

Nobody is paid "too little" at Boeing lol just lol. Even the people who push parts around max out at 50k a year after 6 years.

Considering the sharp increase in housing prices 50k might not be enough for this area. Especially for a single income home with dependents.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 23:25

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 02:19

coyo7e: Aug 23, 2007; by zen death robot

Cicero posted:

Thinking about moving to Munich and I've been investigating the suburbs there. It looks like their model has a bunch of towns that are still sort of dense, with most people living within walking or biking distance of the S-Bahn (commuter rail) station. There's still some parking, but not a huge amount. See: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Olching,+Germany/@48.2084207,11.3235209,3445m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x479e7edcd650216f:0x41e48add78b9780

It kind of seems like sprawl of the sort that American cities built out in the post-WW2 era simply doesn't work terribly well with any kind of transit, and trying to get it to work well will involve some major downsides (like incredibly expensive parking garages).

Well there is the small difference of Munich being blown the gently caress up and then completely being rebuilt post-WW2, whereas in America, things never got destroyed so it just sort accreted over time.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 23:26

OBAMNA PHONE: Aug 7, 2002

ElCondemn posted:

Considering the sharp increase in housing prices 50k might not be enough for this area. Especially for a single income home with dependents.

OK, I'm not sure why you would expect a higher salary for what amounts to the absolute lowest skill level work for machinists. Literally moving parts around.

# ? Mar 31, 2016 23:35

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

SedanChair posted:

Great, let them.

Agreed. We have to remember that while obviously tax breaks for a given employer make it more attractive for that one employer to locate in an area, then having reduced revenues means less investment in public services, which means it's less attractive for other people and employers. There's a reason why all the trendy/better-paying tech companies are mostly in the more liberal cities.

coyo7e posted:

Well there is the small difference of Munich being blown the gently caress up and then completely being rebuilt post-WW2, whereas in America, things never got destroyed so it just sort accreted over time.

This makes, like, no sense. How do you get from, "America was untouched by WW2" to "therefore It Must Needs Be that we would choose low-density sprawl".

# ? Mar 31, 2016 23:56

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

BraveUlysses posted:

Dumb

"Let's give massive tax breaks to corporations without enforceable conditions, in an attempt to match the desperation of southern states" --you

# ? Apr 1, 2016 00:28

OBAMNA PHONE: Aug 7, 2002

SedanChair posted:

"Let's give massive tax breaks to corporations without enforceable conditions, in an attempt to match the desperation of southern states" --you

Two dumb SedanChair posts in a row

# ? Apr 1, 2016 00:37

Solkanar512: Dec 28, 2006; by the sex ghost

SedanChair posted:

"Let's give massive tax breaks to corporations without enforceable conditions, in an attempt to match the desperation of southern states" --you

You're really missing the low hanging fruit I provided a page or so back - the senate majority leader is against tying the tax break to job numbers because, and I quote, "A deal is a deal".

# ? Apr 1, 2016 01:08

got any sevens: Feb 9, 2013; by Cyrano4747

BraveUlysses posted:

OK, I'm not sure why you would expect a higher salary for what amounts to the absolute lowest skill level work for machinists. Literally moving parts around.

Some people are predisposed to enjoy different styles of work than other people, why should they be paid differently? Besides, pushing parts around isn't as easy as you imply, and it's also likely some of that salary is to encourage loyalty and discourage sabotage, etc.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 01:55

DR FRASIER KRANG: Feb 4, 2005; "Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?

I work with parts management folks and I absolutely would never want to do their job. Seems worth 50k or whatever to have reliable people handling your stuff so it gets where it needs to be on time and has the right paperwork so you can actually get it onto a flying airplane.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 02:33

coyo7e: Aug 23, 2007; by zen death robot

Cicero posted:

This makes, like, no sense. How do you get from, "America was untouched by WW2" to "therefore It Must Needs Be that we would choose low-density sprawl".

Seems pretty obvious to me.

When a city is destroyed and then must rebuild, there is the potential to rebuild in a more efficient manner. There was also the psychological shadow of having a foreign country still occupying half of another major city in the same nation and pretty close by, on top of simply not having as much geographical space available to sprawl out across, like America had.

When there is a nation which is in a post-war boom and still living with the specter of fear from a very recent economic depression, people respond by building as luxuriously as possible according to their psychology. America's psyche is all about 2.3 kids with a nice yard and 2 cars in every garage, mixed in with the romance of what seems like unlimited room to grow. The great depression only ended in 1939 - that's just six years before the end of the war, and people wanted to have a safe and comfortable life rather than living in a dustbowl of a farm, or in a tenement building, on top of experience the high of being able to believe in their own exceptionalism.

coyo7e fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Apr 1, 2016

# ? Apr 1, 2016 02:34

beefnoodle: Aug 7, 2004; IGNORE ME! I'M JUST AN OLD WET RAG

BraveUlysses posted:

Nobody is paid "too little" at Boeing lol just lol. Even the people who push parts around max out at 50k a year after 6 years.

Wait, are we saying 50k is too high or too low?

# ? Apr 1, 2016 02:46

Cicero: Dec 17, 2003; Jumpjet, melta, jumpjet. Repeat for ten minutes or until victory is assured.

coyo7e posted:

When a city is destroyed and then must rebuild, there is the potential to rebuild in a more efficient manner.

Yes. But there is also the potential to build in a less efficient manner. Dense building isn't some new innovation, that's the way cities in Germany (and really, most parts of the world) already were, because without cars, cities pretty much have to be dense (this is why US cities that got fairly big prior to the advent of the automobile, like Philadelphia or Boston, usually have a denser style of development). The type of suburban sprawl we see become extremely common in the states after WW2 was relatively anomalous.

quote:

There was also the psychological shadow of having a foreign country still occupying half of another major city in the same nation and pretty close by, on top of simply not having as much geographical space available to sprawl out across, like America had.

This (along with widespread access to cars) explains why America had the option of sprawling, but not why it chose that option.

quote:

When there is a nation which is in a post-war boom and still living with the specter of fear from a very recent economic depression, people respond by building as luxuriously as possible according to their psychology. America's psyche is all about 2.3 kids with a nice yard and 2 cars in every garage, mixed in with the romance of what seems like unlimited room to grow. The great depression only ended in 1939 - that's just six years before the end of the war, and people wanted to have a safe and comfortable life rather than living in a dustbowl of a farm, or in a tenement building, on top of experience the high of being able to believe in their own exceptionalism.

I think you're correct here, but this doesn't contradict the fact that it was a choice that the US collectively made (and that turned out to have some rather nasty side effects). "People chose sprawl because they idealized a spacious suburban lifestyle and there was enough room to do it" is a very different explanation from "in America, things never got destroyed so it just sort accreted over time." We absolutely could have 'accreted' in a way that maintained more traditional density levels, if we had wanted to.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 03:02

OBAMNA PHONE: Aug 7, 2002

effectual posted:

Some people are predisposed to enjoy different styles of work than other people, why should they be paid differently? Besides, pushing parts around isn't as easy as you imply, and it's also likely some of that salary is to encourage loyalty and discourage sabotage, etc.

Are you being obtuse or do you need an explanation of what skilled labor is?

beefnoodle posted:

Wait, are we saying 50k is too high or too low?

I think that it's a good wage for the type of work performed. I'm not arguing for a change one way or the other, just pointing out that even the lowest wage rate paid to IAM machinists is a really good wage. No matter what rate your job is, after six years at that grade you get bumped to the maximum rate.

http://www.iam751.org/pages/wagecard/Back_031116.pdf

OBAMNA PHONE fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 1, 2016

# ? Apr 1, 2016 03:07

DR FRASIER KRANG: Feb 4, 2005; "Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?

We all understand how IAM works.

Plenty of people who work at Boeing are not IAM workers, though.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 03:20

coyo7e: Aug 23, 2007; by zen death robot

BraveUlysses posted:

Are you being obtuse or do you need an explanation of what skilled labor is?

I think that it's a good wage for the type of work performed. I'm not arguing for a change one way or the other, just pointing out that even the lowest wage rate paid to IAM machinists is a really good wage. No matter what rate your job is, after six years at that grade you get bumped to the maximum rate.

http://www.iam751.org/pages/wagecard/Back_031116.pdf

I know plenty of people around Oregon with a high school education and a forklift permit, who make $20-$28 an hour. It's loving absurd. Also a guy I grew up with makes a retarded amount of money clambering around hillsides and marking trees for harvest however, he is pretty loving skilled and does have a job that most people couldn't even do a full day of since it involves hiking around steep hillsides in often heavy brush.. He's always made a grip of money ever since he graduated high school and started out pulling green-chain, but I recall a few years ago him mentioning offhandedly in response to my brother asking just how much money he makes a year, that he "wouldn't leave the house for work for less than 600 bucks a day."

Or look at the pay grades for basic clerical work at your local muni court. Bunch of useless, slow, assholish fat ladies who make $25+/hr to literally just make copies of forms, collect fees from behind bulletproof glass, and occasionally update change said forms from explicitly laid-out instructions. I mean it does take a year of community college courses but it's literally nothing but filing paperwork and making copies.. A monkey could do most of the job with enough training.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 04:14

JAY ZERO SUM GAME: Oct 18, 2005; Walter.
I know you know how to do this.
Get up.

I'm okay with anyone, no matter their occupation, getting paid well.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 04:17

Officer Sandvich: Feb 14, 2010

JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:

I'm okay with anyone, no matter their occupation, getting paid well.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 05:03

Die Sexmonster!: Nov 30, 2005

JAY ZERO SUM GAME posted:

I'm okay with anyone, no matter their occupation, getting paid well.

This. In NW WA, I feel like once people are making $20/hr they're just getting onto their feet. $15 Now seems like a compromise when production growth since wages stagnated is considered.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 05:05

anthonypants: May 6, 2007; by Nyc_Tattoo; Dinosaur Gum

Pyroxene Stigma posted:

This. In NW WA, I feel like once people are making $20/hr they're just getting onto their feet. $15 Now seems like a compromise when production growth since wages stagnated is considered.

It was such a kick in the dick to watch people to get excited over Oregon passing a $14.75/hour minimum wage bill, when that amount won't be enforced until 2022.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 05:37

got any sevens: Feb 9, 2013; by Cyrano4747

anthonypants posted:

It was such a kick in the dick to watch people to get excited over Oregon passing a $14.75/hour minimum wage bill, when that amount won't be enforced until 2022.

This makes me wonder how many younger people can even stay in this area area long enough for wages to rise or home prices to fall, or the decades-later transit to arrive.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 12:05

RuanGacho: Jun 20, 2002; "You're gunna break it!"

anthonypants posted:

It was such a kick in the dick to watch people to get excited over Oregon passing a $14.75/hour minimum wage bill, when that amount won't be enforced until 2022.

Is the Oregon bill indexed to inflation? This is equally important as the actual wage increase

# ? Apr 1, 2016 15:37

JamesKPolk: Apr 9, 2009

RuanGacho posted:

Is the Oregon bill indexed to inflation? This is equally important as the actual wage increase

It is but not til after 2022 (I think- someone correct me). Which, hell yeah. But thats still 6 years of inflation happening without it being pegged.

Portland is sprawling into Milwaukie right now though, and they recently passed a $15 (right now) municipal minimum wage, so it could be a sign of things to come rather than a dead end.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 16:44

beefnoodle: Aug 7, 2004; IGNORE ME! I'M JUST AN OLD WET RAG

New push to change racially offensive place names in Washington state

# ? Apr 1, 2016 17:38

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

Only interested if they change the name of the whole state from a slave owner to something radical like"Boeing".

# ? Apr 1, 2016 17:54

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

beefnoodle posted:

New push to change racially offensive place names in Washington state

King County used to be named after America's briefest serving vice-president. Also, a terrible person. Also, probably America's first gay vice-president.

Pierce County is still named after America's worst president

# ? Apr 1, 2016 18:28

seiferguy: Jun 9, 2005; FLAWED
INTUITION; Toilet Rascal

Like any ST article, the comments are hilarious. People feel that the name "coon lake" isn't that big of a deal and we need to worry about REAL issues.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 18:36

koreban: Apr 4, 2008; I guess we all learned that trying to get along is way better than p. . .player hatin'.; Fun Shoe

I wonder if they'll do anything to the Jefferson Davis memorial park in Battle Ground.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 18:41

Crab Dad: Dec 28, 2002; behold i have tempered and refined thee, but not as silver; as CRAB

koreban posted:

I wonder if they'll do anything to the Jefferson Davis memorial park in Battle Ground.

Losers don't deserve memorials. We're a nation of winners!

# ? Apr 1, 2016 18:45

got any sevens: Feb 9, 2013; by Cyrano4747

glowing-fish posted:

King County used to be named after America's briefest serving vice-president. Also, a terrible person. Also, probably America's first gay vice-president.

Pierce County is still named after America's worst president

How is Pierce worse than Nixon, Reagan, or Bush jr?

# ? Apr 1, 2016 18:54

beefnoodle: Aug 7, 2004; IGNORE ME! I'M JUST AN OLD WET RAG

glowing-fish posted:

King County used to be named after America's briefest serving vice-president. Also, a terrible person. Also, probably America's first gay vice-president.

Pierce County is still named after America's worst president

Washington doesn't have a Buchanan or Harding County. We have to settle for third-worst.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 18:59

glowing-fish: Feb 18, 2013; Keep grinding,
I hope you level up!

effectual posted:

How is Pierce worse than Nixon, Reagan, or Bush jr?

Well Bush and Pierce are cousins, for one thing.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 19:04

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Oregon has a lot of stuff named after Klan members but in fairness when one of your early governors was in the Klan it's hard to walk that back.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 19:09

Pander: Oct 9, 2007; Fear is the glue that holds society together. It's what makes people suppress their worst impulses. Fear is power.

And at the end of fear, oblivion.

LingcodKilla posted:

Losers don't deserve memorials. We're a nation of winners!

*notices rebel flags still being sold everywhere*

Not sure they lost.

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:24

DR FRASIER KRANG: Feb 4, 2005; "Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?

Pander posted:

*notices rebel flags still being sold everywhere*

Not sure they lost.

Define "everywhere". You can still buy a nazi flag too.

# ? Apr 2, 2016 01:00

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

HEY NONG MAN posted:

Define "everywhere". You can still buy a nazi flag too.

Confederate flag poo poo was being sold in Walmart and Sears up until last year... I don't think the nazi comparison fits.

# ? Apr 2, 2016 07:48

DR FRASIER KRANG: Feb 4, 2005; "Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?

I guess I'm sheltered then because the closest wal-mart is three towns away and the Sears near me closed two years ago.

I realize this isn't a Seattle-only discussion, though, so I will defer to people who live in areas where those stores exist.

# ? Apr 2, 2016 14:35

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

SedanChair posted:

"Let's give massive tax breaks to corporations without enforceable conditions, in an attempt to match the desperation of southern states" --you

The Boeing engineers I know have transferred to those states.

Studied Boeing in Grad school. They were the case study for this is how to gently caress up trying to be a "lean" company. I've seen a bunch of their logistical gently caress ups first hand. It's a big fuckup for them to slowly strangle their Seattle facilities. Same managers repeating the same fuckups.

Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Apr 2, 2016

# ? Apr 2, 2016 17:02

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

beefnoodle posted:

Washington doesn't have a Buchanan or Harding County. We have to settle for third-worst.

No, no, no, Warren G Harding mother fuckers.

Edit: Gah, whoops.

Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Apr 5, 2016

# ? Apr 2, 2016 17:04

beefnoodle: Aug 7, 2004; IGNORE ME! I'M JUST AN OLD WET RAG

You mean the Harding that you quoted in my post?

# ? Apr 2, 2016 17:55

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# ? Jun 8, 2024 02:19

Doccers: Aug 15, 2000; Patron Saint of Chickencheese

Dear Seattle Commuters: My apologies for inserting a military vehicle convoy onto I-5's rush hour last tuesday. I did at least get a giggle out of it. You have a very pretty state.

I have one question: Why is the Tacoma Narrows bridge a toll only one way? Not that I'm complaining mind you, but it just seems weird to me.

# ? Apr 7, 2016 08:14

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