terrible programmers: my god, it's full of chars

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > terrible programmers: my god, it's full of chars

«‹›1446 »

HappyHippo: Nov 19, 2003; Do you have an Air Miles Card?

JewKiller 3000 posted:

the builder has another advantage:
- new Car("Honda", null, 2013, null, null, null, null, null, null, "HappyHippo") means i can make my Car instance variables final, which i may want to do
- x = new Car(); x.owner = "Honda"; etc. means these variables can't be final
- with new CarBuilder().setMake("Honda").setYear(2013).setOwner("HappyHippo").build(), the builder also defers the actual construction until build() is called. so i get the effect of the initial constructor form, with the advantage of simulating named/optional arguments

yeah but immutability, named parameters and lazy execution can and have been done in much better ways than this

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:44

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# ? May 25, 2024 09:38

fart simpson: Jul 2, 2005; DEATH TO AMERICA

JewKiller 3000 posted:

the builder has another advantage:
- new Car("Honda", null, 2013, null, null, null, null, null, null, "HappyHippo") means i can make my Car instance variables final, which i may want to do
- x = new Car(); x.owner = "Honda"; etc. means these variables can't be final
- with new CarBuilder().setMake("Honda").setYear(2013).setOwner("HappyHippo").build(), the builder also defers the actual construction until build() is called. so i get the effect of the initial constructor form, with the advantage of simulating named/optional arguments

lol

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:47

HoboMan: Nov 4, 2010

listen pal, i'm dealing with some completely procedural and functional code that was made with no design in mind. despite it being a single file and "only" 900 lines it is so loving arcane that if i change ANYTHING pretty much everything completely breaks.
maybe you know what your code does, but gently caress you as soon as anyone else needs to look at it for even a second

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:48

JewKiller 3000: Nov 28, 2006; by Lowtax

HappyHippo posted:

yeah but immutability, named parameters and lazy execution can and have been done in much better ways than this

right that's the argument, this pattern exists because java, not because good oop design principles

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:48

akadajet: Sep 14, 2003

JewKiller 3000 posted:

new Car("Honda", null, 2013, null, null, null, null, null, null, "HappyHippo")

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:49

oh no blimp issue: Feb 23, 2011

HoboMan posted:

listen pal, i'm dealing with some completely procedural and functional code that was made with no design in mind. despite it being a single file and "only" 900 lines it is so loving arcane that if i change ANYTHING pretty much everything completely breaks.
maybe you know what your code does, but gently caress you as soon as anyone else needs to look at it for even a second

only 900 lines? does it actually do anything?

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:50

HappyHippo: Nov 19, 2003; Do you have an Air Miles Card?

JewKiller 3000 posted:

right that's the argument, this pattern exists because java, not because good oop design principles

HoboMan posted:

listen pal, i'm dealing with some completely procedural and functional code that was made with no design in mind. despite it being a single file and "only" 900 lines it is so loving arcane that if i change ANYTHING pretty much everything completely breaks.
maybe you know what your code does, but gently caress you as soon as anyone else needs to look at it for even a second

the options here are not "oop" versus "nothing". there are other ways to structure a program.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:51

Condiv: May 7, 2008; Sorry to undo the effort of paying a domestic abuser $10 to own this poster, but I am going to lose my dang mind if I keep seeing multiple posters who appear to be Baloogan.

With love,
a mod

JewKiller 3000 posted:

the builder has another advantage:
- new Car("Honda", null, 2013, null, null, null, null, null, null, "HappyHippo") means i can make my Car instance variables final, which i may want to do
- x = new Car(); x.owner = "Honda"; etc. means these variables can't be final
- with new CarBuilder().setMake("Honda").setYear(2013).setOwner("HappyHippo").build(), the builder also defers the actual construction until build() is called. so i get the effect of the initial constructor form, with the advantage of simulating named/optional arguments

null? not Optional<T>? shame on you

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:51

Fergus Mac Roich: Nov 5, 2008; Soiled Meat

wots the best object creational pattern

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:56

HoboMan: Nov 4, 2010

Awia posted:

only 900 lines? does it actually do anything?

a lot of running in circles, but somehow that makes things happen?

i mean like

JavaScript code:

function (selector, maxCount) {
	var 
		all = document.all,
		l = all.length,
		i,
		resultSet = [];

	style.addRule(selector, "foo:bar");
	for (i = 0; i < l; i += 1) {
		if (all[i].currentStyle.foo === "bar") {
			resultSet.push(all[i]);
			if (resultSet.length > maxCount) {
				break;
			}
		}
	}
	style.removeRule(0);
	return resultSet;
};

the gently caress is this?

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:58

akadajet: Sep 14, 2003

Fergus Mac Roich posted:

wots the best object creational pattern

make your objects out of this stuff

# ? Apr 1, 2016 22:58

oh no blimp issue: Feb 23, 2011

HoboMan posted:

a lot of running in circles, but somehow that makes things happen?

i mean like

JavaScript code:

function (selector, maxCount) {
	var 
		all = document.all,
		l = all.length,
		i,
		resultSet = [];

	style.addRule(selector, "foo:bar");
	for (i = 0; i < l; i += 1) {
		if (all[i].currentStyle.foo === "bar") {
			resultSet.push(all[i]);
			if (resultSet.length > maxCount) {
				break;
			}
		}
	}
	style.removeRule(0);
	return resultSet;
};

the gently caress is this?

it adds styles onto a list and then returns it

# ? Apr 1, 2016 23:03

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

Maluco Marinero posted:

just coming back to this a moment, the thing about design ad hoc, say with Bootstrap or whatever, is it's surprisingly wasteful. I say wasteful because if you want something tailored to your context you actually end up spending a lot of time hammering the design into shape (probably in brittle ways), going back and forth on iterations to get things 'just right'.

if you have some sort of design process, even if it's just pencil & pad + some time in Sketch or Illustrator, you'll be far better equipped to not waste your time on implementation, so the iterations you do need have much less ground to cover to reach the final product.

of course,if you think stock Bootstrap is enough for your needs knock yourself out, but there's a reason things with good design don't stay on Bootstrap forever and it's not actually vanity.

its mostly vanity. the vast majority of sites would be better off starting from bootstrap w/ sketches for layout and navigation. then if you find something you cant do w/ stock bootstrap you can start extending it or eventually replacing it, but most sites totally fail at design and you get some bloated shitpile of custom garbage where they tried to do way too much.

with bootstrap the tool kind of limits the total damage you can do to the client by default

# ? Apr 1, 2016 23:04

Maluco Marinero: Jan 18, 2001; Damn that's a
fine elephant.

Shaggar posted:

but most sites totally fail at design and you get some bloated shitpile of custom garbage where they tried to do way too much.

I don't disagree with this, but often the bloatedness comes out of trying to extend bootstrap's poor style/structure Separation rather than build good components. Bootstrap written as BEM components would be far easier to extend, but would require more written markup. A really nice BEM set would actually be pretty good now that I think of it, ship template helpers for a bunch of different spaces, make it easy to just drop in new components without colliding with the Bootstrap CSS.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 23:24

HappyHippo: Nov 19, 2003; Do you have an Air Miles Card?

HoboMan posted:

Javascript code:

found your problem

# ? Apr 1, 2016 23:26

HoboMan: Nov 4, 2010

Maluco Marinero posted:

I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse here. Of course there are tools that make it faster, but none of them fully replace a lack of design skills and HTML/CSS knowledge. The only tool that comes close is http://macaw.co/ but even that comes with limitations, you still need to know how to design don't you?

If you want to learn how to do a thing, do it, otherwise use Squarespace Themes, Bootstrap, Foundation, whatever you want to cut out the bit of work you don't want to or aren't able to do.

that's funny because i feel like you are the one being deliberately obtuse.

"well you're not a designer so just don't even bother and leave it to the professionals" -basically all you've loving said to me

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:02

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

HappyHippo posted:

the options here are not "oop" versus "nothing". there are other ways to structure a program.

and the options for oop are not "java" versus "nothing", so finding a deficiency in java syntax is not an argument against the whole oo paradigm

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:05

Maluco Marinero: Jan 18, 2001; Damn that's a
fine elephant.

HoboMan posted:

that's funny because i feel like you are the one being deliberately obtuse.

"well you're not a designer so just don't even bother and leave it to the professionals" -basically all you've loving said to me

Not really, what I'm saying is if you want a theme in a can, use that. If you want to be able to design poo poo, you're going to have to learn how, but you have to understand it's a new discipline to learn and it will take time to do so. The question is do you wish to do that or not? You can either learn to use Bootstrap or themes like we've been saying and get most of the way there, but if you want something that looks genuinely designed custom to your program/website's use case, you need a designer, either find one or become one.

Which one do you want advice on?

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:09

HoboMan: Nov 4, 2010

pretend i have design skills and was making a webpage, "what program do i loving boot up to start crafting some html/css?" is essentially my question. all you've said in response is "be a designer". this is not helpful

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:12

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

fire up VS and start a new asp.net 5 Core 1 web app project. it will come w/ a default boot strap layout and u can get started from there.

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:14

Jerry Bindle: May 16, 2003

HoboMan posted:

pretend i have design skills and was making a webpage, "what program do i loving boot up to start crafting some html/css?" is essentially my question. all you've said in response is "be good at design".

if you want to do some wysiwyg html, i would use http://www.seamonkey-project.org/
if you want to gently caress around with css, http://brackets.io/. brackets is cool because you can edit html codes and css codes and see them live update

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:15

Asshole Masonanie: Oct 27, 2009; by vyelkin

take a picutre of whatever poo poo you just drew and put it into photoshop and make it how you want to look then use SLICES because that's better than any method currently available

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:15

Asshole Masonanie: Oct 27, 2009; by vyelkin

source: i'm a 10x developer

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:16

Valeyard: Mar 30, 2012; Grimey Drawer

just hand craft it all

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:16

Fergus Mac Roich: Nov 5, 2008; Soiled Meat

HoboMan posted:

pretend i have design skills and was making a webpage, "what program do i loving boot up to start crafting some html/css?" is essentially my question. all you've said in response is "be a designer". this is not helpful

sublime text with emmet

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:17

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

HoboMan posted:

pretend i have design skills

this is a dangerous game tho, is why everyone's XYIng u so hard

ive seen a shitload of sql databases with a loose skin on top of them that engineers claim to be usable by humans

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:19

piratepilates: Mar 28, 2004; So I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it.

HoboMan posted:

pretend i have design skills and was making a webpage, "what program do i loving boot up to start crafting some html/css?" is essentially my question. all you've said in response is "be a designer". this is not helpful

notepad

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:21

brap: Aug 23, 2004; Grimey Drawer

don't use asp.net core yet. it's really really not ready yet

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:21

HoboMan: Nov 4, 2010

JawnV6 posted:

this is a dangerous game tho, is why everyone's XYIng u so hard

ive seen a shitload of sql databases with a loose skin on top of them that engineers claim to be usable by humans

well you see my problem is this is already the case and so i want to try and improve the situation.

piratepilates posted:

notepad

gently caress

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:24

JawnV6: Jul 4, 2004; So hot ...

HoboMan posted:

well you see my problem is this is already the case and so i want to try and improve the situation.

so you need to learn design. you don't need a tool to automate & expedite your failures.

"hey y'all i need to machine this widget"
"uh, maybe find someone to teach you machining first?"
"no, no, i just need to find an unguarded lathe or mill or cnc i guess??"

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:29

Potassium Problems: Sep 28, 2001

fleshweasel posted:

don't use asp.net core yet. it's really really not ready yet

I keep seeing this, but what makes it not ready? esp when scott hanselman says "you can go into production with ASP.NET 5 on Windows or Linux and Microsoft will support you.", it seems like it should be in a pretty good state

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:30

Maluco Marinero: Jan 18, 2001; Damn that's a
fine elephant.

HoboMan posted:

pretend i have design skills and was making a webpage, "what program do i loving boot up to start crafting some html/css?" is essentially my question. all you've said in response is "be a designer". this is not helpful

See, the thing is here's where we started:

HoboMan posted:

where do i start if i want to make my webpages not look like an engineer made them?
"but it's functional, what more do you need?" *entire page is enclosed in <ul> tag and just depends on list wraparound to have any vertical placement* also: "lol, what's css?"

Bootstrap or Foundation (by Zurb) is your option if you don't have much HTML/CSS experience.

If you want something different and custom the only process that works to give you a good result is to design properly in design tools, and then building in HTML/CSS. Building in HTML & CSS is still pretty primitive, it's all text editors and templating, Brackets as suggested gives you a few nice things like live editing and things, but is still a text editor at the end of the day. No text editor can supplement not having a strong enough handle on HTML & CSS to translate a design to code.

If you want to get better at HTML & CSS you need to start learning things at sites like CSS Tricks, Codeacademy (I guess), I dunno what the best resources out there are for a from scratch education.

edit: Or for design, grab a copy of Sketch if you have a Mac and this book - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Design-Hackers-Reverse-Engineering-Beauty/dp/1119998956?tag=duckduckgo-ffab-uk-21 - that'll start you off but is by no means going to be the end if you want appreciable results. Your own designs will still be poo poo for a long time, even longer without critique and mentoring.

Maluco Marinero fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Apr 2, 2016

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:30

quiggy: Aug 7, 2010; [in Russian] Oof.

HoboMan posted:

pretend i have design skills and was making a webpage, "what program do i loving boot up to start crafting some html/css?" is essentially my question. all you've said in response is "be a designer". this is not helpful

grep and sed

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:37

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

Barnyard Protein posted:

if you want to do some wysiwyg html, i would use http://www.seamonkey-project.org/

lol this still exists? wow. i guess a lot of it is just changes pulled from firefox, is the html editor side actually being maintained?

# ? Apr 2, 2016 00:51

MononcQc: May 29, 2007

MononcQc posted:

There's some web-made apps that allow this right now with a bit more hand-holding, but I forget the names. I'd have to ask around to know.

Just to close on that topic, I asked and the tool is webflow: https://webflow.com/designer it's a good step towards hand-holding, but still lets you edit stuff in a way it will always look the same.

# ? Apr 2, 2016 01:12

Progressive JPEG: Feb 19, 2003

LeftistMuslimObama posted:

i type the code and then the thing happen and then i am given money. its a very nice pattern.

# ? Apr 2, 2016 01:55

Progressive JPEG: Feb 19, 2003

HoboMan posted:

so you're saying i need to break out notepad and hand craft loving bespoke css and html? and there's really no tools to make that faster/easier?

just make a flash webpage

or a server-side imagemap

# ? Apr 2, 2016 01:59

Brain Candy: May 18, 2006

Soricidus posted:

and the options for oop are not "java" versus "nothing", so finding a deficiency in java syntax is not an argument against the whole oo paradigm

where is this oop that i can be employeed to use that's not comparible with java 8?

(if you tell me to use scala i will laugh at you)

# ? Apr 2, 2016 02:03

Plorkyeran: Mar 22, 2007; To Escape The Shackles Of The Old Forums, We Must Reject The Tribal Negativity He Endorsed

objc has meaningfully different oop from Java and there's a million ios jobs

# ? Apr 2, 2016 02:17

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# ? May 25, 2024 09:38

Vanadium: Jan 8, 2005

People always talk about oop being not the only way to structure yr code, but then people go and reduce oop to defining types w/ associated operations, and I'm not sure if I can think of a meaningfully different way to structure things.

# ? Apr 2, 2016 02:22

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