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Brevity is the soul of wit. Needless complexity is the soul of poo poo.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:09
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Groovelord Neato posted:uh yes? it's a lot worse when something is both dumb and convoluted. No but you're saying dumbness and complexity are two distinct qualities now? Because you initially said everything post 2 is dumb, but what you really meant was that everything post 2 is complex?
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Apr 2, 2016 19:35
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:IShallRiseAgain confirmed for fishman We prefer the term Deep Ones. Please don't use that racial slur.
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Apr 2, 2016 23:14
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porfiria posted:So your metric for dumbness is complexity? Essentially the Warcraft mandala is very convoluted and yet more evidence of the never-ending retcons. When you first look at their mandala it doesn't even appear to make sense. We had a very long period where magic was evil and ultimately the province of Sargeras/demons. Well, now that doesn't matter anymore, either. In their effort to make every race "belong" in the game and be in some way nuanced, whatever the cost, Blizzard has consistently set fire to whatever happened in the past of the game world, often immediately before their retcon. As a consequence we have no idea what is happening in the movie because depending upon when the movie was written and whether or not the script writers cared to pay close attention, it could be one or several things. I remember when Grom Hellscream was a psychopathic 70's rock joke. Everything was simple, made sense, and was good. There wasn't a new demigod coming in every two years to tell us everything we knew was wrong and no it didn't happen like it just happened. Warcraft II ended on Ner'zhul escaping into the multiverse while being chased by Khadgar. Everything else since has been significantly less interesting, despite its vastly increased complexity. It wasn't that orcs were necromancer mongols, you see, it's that the Alliance is racist! Of course, every video game series between the mid-90's and the early 2000's became vastly more complicated in scope, given the increased technical capabilities of the games, leading to more and more storytelling. And if they had made this movie back when Burning Crusade/Wrath of the Lich King came out, generally the last time Warcraft was considered at all compelling by most people, maybe that would have worked. But those expansions were a long-rear end time ago.
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Apr 2, 2016 23:47
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Essentially the Warcraft mandala is very convoluted and yet more evidence of the never-ending retcons. When you first look at their mandala it doesn't even appear to make sense. We had a very long period where magic was evil and ultimately the province of Sargeras/demons. Well, now that doesn't matter anymore, either. It's an MMO so stuff has to keep happening. The plots and characters have never been the point though, it's all about funny vocal responses and wacky designs. Which the games continue to have, pretty much.
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Apr 2, 2016 23:58
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504 posted:Warcraft lore sounds like the comic Spawn when I stopped reading. That's Blizzard writing in general.
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Apr 3, 2016 01:08
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porfiria posted:It's an MMO so stuff has to keep happening. The plots and characters have never been the point though, it's all about funny vocal responses and wacky designs. Which the games continue to have, pretty much. Soap Operas and Pro Wrestling manage to do it by evolving storylines forward and changing characters in the now rather than continuously rewriting up the past and negating the symbolism and relationships come before. A big heel turn is more potent because it tears something down and creates loss, whereas a retcon says it never was.
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Apr 3, 2016 01:35
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Paolomania posted:Soap Operas and Pro Wrestling manage to do it by evolving storylines forward and changing characters in the now rather than continuously rewriting up the past and negating the symbolism and relationships come before. A big heel turn is more potent because it tears something down and creates loss, whereas a retcon says it never was. That's because Soap Operas and Wrestling are character-driven linear scripted visual narratives, whereas MMOs are player-driven persistent virtual worlds.
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Apr 3, 2016 01:42
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WoW is a 100% NPC-driven narrative with players acting as supporting cast.
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Apr 3, 2016 01:48
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porfiria posted:That's because Soap Operas and Wrestling are character-driven linear scripted visual narratives, whereas MMOs are player-driven persistent virtual worlds. WoW's storytelling is not player-driven in the least.
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Apr 3, 2016 01:48
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EVE has player driven story in that events like war, betrayal and alliances are not controlled by the devs but by the players themselves. There isn't really a story per se and for most players the game is just flying around and looking at spreadsheets but at least CCP know to just sit back and allow the players to control things as much as possible.
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Apr 3, 2016 01:56
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Lurdiak posted:WoW's storytelling is not player-driven in the least. Right, it's an occasion for players to murder stuff.
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Apr 3, 2016 02:00
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Essentially the Warcraft mandala is very convoluted and yet more evidence of the never-ending retcons. When you first look at their mandala it doesn't even appear to make sense. We had a very long period where magic was evil and ultimately the province of Sargeras/demons. Well, now that doesn't matter anymore, either. I guess I fundamentally disagree: the mandala takes the problem of a series with a lot of mere length-based complexity (we're a long way from Demonic Orcs and Virtuous Humans) and makes a working diagram of everything that passes the Eye Test without drastically changing what we've been dealing with for a while now. When I look at the mandala, I'm not thinking about the supposed danger of using arcane magic (since practically everyone is using arcane magic in the setting and the Legion only seems to come around every once in a while), I'm thinking that, ok, the Titan Magic is diagonal to the Burning Legion Magic. Like, I can understand it being annoying if you liked the Red-Vs-Blue aspect of older Warcraft and seeing that modern Warcraft is WGRUB from Magic, but it's not that terrible.
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Apr 3, 2016 02:20
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it's bad and it's been bad in all their current sequels. i do wish i could have bad taste though and enjoy what they put out but alas it is not to be.
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Apr 3, 2016 02:34
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As far as I remember the stuff in this book is meant to be the last retcon. Basically if it's in the book it is going to be true, not that I believe they'll stop making retcons but this is what they've said about the book I'm pretty sure.
Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 04:25 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 04:18
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Lord_Magmar posted:As far as I remember the stuff in this book is meant to be the last retcon. Basically if it's in the book it is going to be true, not that I believe they'll stop making retcons but this is what they've said about the book I'm pretty sure. There's gonna loving be more retcons now I'm absolutely sure of it.
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Apr 3, 2016 04:30
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porfiria posted:Right, it's an occasion for players to murder stuff. You keep shifting goalposts and now you've basically gotten to the point of saying the story doesn't even matter. Is it so hard for you to admit that it's just a really bad story and everyone is right to feel it's bad?
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Apr 3, 2016 04:32
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Lord_Magmar posted:As far as I remember the stuff in this book is meant to be the last retcon. Basically if it's in the book it is going to be true, not that I believe they'll stop making retcons but this is what they've said about the book I'm pretty sure. The Titans one tick away from the Old Gods and the Naaru one tick away from the Burning Legion? This crap won't stand.
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Apr 3, 2016 06:41
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The book is there so when they finally do the "kill sargeras" expansion, which might very well be this upcoming one, they can launch the next one with Void Gods and when people say "wait what the gently caress is this, how is this a follow up to the main bad guys since the very first RTS game?" blizzard will get bailed out by nerds who say "ACTually if you read Chronicles you'd know that void lords are the real bad guys and are badder than the Legion".
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Apr 3, 2016 06:52
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porfiria posted:No but you're saying dumbness and complexity are two distinct qualities now? Because you initially said everything post 2 is dumb, but what you really meant was that everything post 2 is complex?  warcraft fan tears detected
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Apr 3, 2016 08:36
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Killing The Lich King was the end of the WoW story. No one has been 10% as interesting or generated 1% of the player enthusiasm to see/beat.
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Apr 3, 2016 09:36
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504 posted:Killing The Lich King was the end of the WoW story. I liked Deathwing a lot but I apparently was the only person. I guess most WoW players' first game was WC3 and not WC2. I already thought 3 was self-important, full of needless retcons and kinda dumb, not to mention it seemed to recycle plot points from the Star Wars prequels of all things, but I had no idea how dumb things would get.
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Apr 3, 2016 09:41
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Lurdiak posted:I liked Deathwing a lot but I apparently was the only person. I guess most WoW players' first game was WC3 and not WC2. I already thought 3 was self-important, full of needless retcons and kinda dumb, not to mention it seemed to recycle plot points from the Star Wars prequels of all things, but I had no idea how dumb things would get. I remember downing NW and being all "What? really?" there was just nothing in it for me.
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Apr 3, 2016 09:53
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Who is NW?
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Apr 3, 2016 09:57
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porfiria posted:Right, it's an occasion for players to murder stuff. Kinda? I stopped playing when people stopped asking me to murder birds and bring them their feathers. gently caress crystals and magic swords, I just wanted to kill birds. Or maybe some hogs.
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Apr 3, 2016 10:00
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Grendels Dad posted:Kinda? I stopped playing when people stopped asking me to murder birds and bring them their feathers. gently caress crystals and magic swords, I just wanted to kill birds. Or maybe some hogs. There's a whole zone of birdmen in the latest expansion. It's also got some of the better storytelling of the expac, because it's largely divorced from the main plot.
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Apr 3, 2016 10:02
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Lurdiak posted:I liked Deathwing a lot but I apparently was the only person. I guess most WoW players' first game was WC3 and not WC2. I already thought 3 was self-important, full of needless retcons and kinda dumb, not to mention it seemed to recycle plot points from the Star Wars prequels of all things, but I had no idea how dumb things would get.
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Apr 3, 2016 10:11
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MisterBibs posted:WGRUB  What does that stand for?
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Apr 3, 2016 14:12
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Games Discusso is better than the actual Games subforum now.
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Apr 3, 2016 15:01
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Corek posted:Games Discusso is better than the actual Games subforum now. Low bar
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Apr 3, 2016 15:07
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504 posted:Killing The Lich King was the end of the WoW story. If Thrall did a heel turn vast swaths of players would resub just to get a chance to kill him. (If Metzen had any talent this would have happened in the latest expansion. Heck he would even have been able to recycle his favorite corruption storyline.) Paolomania fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 16:37
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Paolomania posted:If Thrall did a heel turn vast swaths of players would resub just to get a chance to kill him. (If Metzen had any talent this would have happened in the latest expansion. Heck he would even have been able to recycle his favorite corruption storyline.) Why? Normal not crazies like Thrall and don't really want to kill him.
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Apr 3, 2016 16:52
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The best Orc leaders in gaming: 1.  2.  3.  4.  5. 
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Apr 3, 2016 17:08
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I just cant get over how much Khadgar looks like some nerdy high-schooler's lovely cosplay.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:06
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Lurdiak posted:I guess most WoW players' first game was WC3 and not WC2. I don't know for certain, but I recall reading that this was the case. WC2 was a game very popular within the niche market of gaming at the time (winnowed down even further by it being in its own niche genre, the RTS), whereas WC3 was the first mainstream introduction for a growing market. Picklepuss posted:
White - Green - Red - BlUe - Black. Basically I was saying that I can understand it if someone who liked WC 1/2 liked the Red-Is-Against-Blue-Is-Against-Red style of things, when the new codified lore defines things as multiple different groups allied/opposed to each other. Personally, I like the latter more. Prolly because of my time spent in Magic, where even dual (and tri) color combos have their own internal flavor. Steve2911 posted:Why? Normal not crazies like Thrall and don't really want to kill him. One of the base-level underpinnings from WoW's lore thread is the assumption that Thrall-hate is the standard.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:15
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Bobfromsales posted:I just cant get over how much Khadgar looks like some nerdy high-schooler's lovely cosplay.  MisterBibs posted:White - Green - Red - BlUe - Black. MisterBibs posted:One of the base-level underpinnings from WoW's lore thread is the assumption that Thrall-hate is the standard. Picklepuss fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Apr 3, 2016 |
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Apr 3, 2016 19:15
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Med'an is virtually unknown. Anyone angry about him is close to being a red shirt guy. Thrall is overused and annoying but thrall-hate is internet retardation. Khadgar was a teenager in the first war. The "mandala" is just book art and should be given liberty to interpret the wow universe. It doesn't serve a purpose than other to look pretty. The wow movie might do well if there is no competition. Otherwise, it is kind of bland. IDK blizzard has the luck of the gods with marketing average products. The first war story imo revolves around Gul'dan and Medivh, not irrelevant human king and irrelevant orc chief. Human and orc good guys are only significant in their deaths but the wizards drive the action. If they were were to set up Ner'zhul and Khadgar in addition to the guys that opened the portal, some of the most important characters would be developed for future movies. This makes too much sense and the movie will probably be a retcon.
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Apr 3, 2016 19:47
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it's not marketing luck, they made really good games up until sc2 and have been able to continue off the bad taste of game players or "gamers".
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Apr 3, 2016 20:01
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temple posted:Med'an is virtually unknown. Anyone angry about him is close to being a red shirt guy.
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Apr 3, 2016 20:53
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Lurdiak posted:Who is NW? Hehe, mean DW (Deathwing) NW was Nightwing, Batmans lil boy toy all grown up.
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Apr 4, 2016 10:20
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