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I sort of agree about the outcome, but the repression wasn't minor, dozens, possibly hundreds of people died, thousands were imprisoned or tortured. Also people aren't magically enlightened by virtue of being cut away from the church, they've turned to bullshit alternative healers and other charlatans instead, which may be worse in the long term than simply belonging to Catholicism.
steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 2, 2016 |
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Apr 2, 2016 21:32
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Baronjutter posted:Yeah, Church bullied and forced people into their beliefs for hundreds of years then got a taste of their own medicine via some incredibly minor repression and rules that paled in comparison to how the existing centuries of religious brainwashing and social control were brutally forced and held in place. I'd say the lack of czech religiousness is maybe the one good outcome from the whole stupid soviet union. I wonder how much less hosed polish politics would be today if the catholic church had little to no influence in the country. Ah it's always nice when the anti theist lets their totalitarian face show through the mask of tolerance they claim.
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Apr 2, 2016 21:33
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes it's a good idea to bully people for their beliefs. You know I think Iran has a good way to run itself.
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Apr 2, 2016 21:41
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Pierogi posted:Don't take it from me, take it from the people who want to bully imprison women for believing in the right to decide about their bodies. Yes because the Polish Catholic Church is corrupt religion should be persecuted.
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Apr 2, 2016 21:46
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Pierogi posted:Don't take it from me, take it from the people who want to bully imprison women for believing in the right to decide about their bodies. There's virtually no link between this and the religious persecution under Communism. If anything the Communists were just as conservative on this issue as the church.
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Apr 2, 2016 21:51
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 I wonder if the fighting could lead to Armenia invoking defensive protection because of the ODKB. As far as I can tell the clashes were between NK troops and Azeri, and not actually Armenian military, but I'm sure Russia would love to pull a Georgia on Azerbaijan. I highly doubt the US will support them at all, so it would probably go even faster than the invasion of Georgia.
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Apr 2, 2016 21:57
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes because the Polish Catholic Church is corrupt religion should be persecuted. Its not corrupt (in this instance), its the Catholic interpretation of the validity of abortion, in accordance with mainstream Catholic doctrine. It's just regressive like every major religion that isn't some hippy dippy new age bullshit or a dying protestant sect fighting for its survival. People can believe what they want but I can want people to believe less too because ultimately I and I guess Pierogi too believe that religion is a force for evil in the world. Anyway Poland was doomed to religiosity for the next several decades because of JPII and people's perception of him as one of the main catalysts in the fall of communism.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:21
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sparatuvs posted:
Not enough info yet but yeah, this looks like yet another Russian land grab.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:23
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steinrokkan posted:There's virtually no link between this and the religious persecution under Communism. If anything the Communists were just as conservative on this issue as the church. I don't know about Czechia but in Poland, the abortion law was the most liberal its ever been under the commies. Now it looks like its going to be the most restrictive since 1932. I'm not a huge fan of on demand abortion and actually like the Polish law the way it is now, but the Polish communists were certainly not near as conservative as the church on this issue.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:25
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Russia has been arming both Azerbaijan and Armenia. Simple really - the former have plenty of money. http://www.eurasianet.org/node/68407 - More Russian Arms Deals With Azerbaijan Add Insult To Armenia's Injury http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-08-13/azeri-russian-arms-trade-4-billion-amid-tension-with-armenia - Azeri-Russian Arms Trade $4 Billion Amid Tension With Armenia http://www.eurasianet.org/node/77486 few interesting tidbits from that last article: quote:...That said, Azerbaijan's purchases are still substantial, and a large portion of them also come from Russia. This week, the Stockholm International Peace Research institute released a report noting that Azerbaijan was the largest importer of arms in Europe over the period 2011-15, and that it accounted for nearly five percent of Russian exports over that period.... quote:....Earlier this month, U.S. intelligence officials said that the potential for war over the disputed territory of Nagorno Karabakh is rising. "Baku’s sustained military buildup coupled with declining economic conditions in Azerbaijan are raising the potential that the conflict will escalate in 2016",.... And in february some sales to Armenia http://www.janes.com/article/58187/russia-details-usd200-million-arms-sale-to-armenia - Russia details USD200 million arms sale to Armenia Armenia's position is hardly enviable. They are held dependent on Russia and it's military bases in Armenia, Azerbaijan has triple the population and twice the GDP per capita.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:32
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A Pale Horse posted:I don't know about Czechia but in Poland, the abortion law was the most liberal its ever been under the commies. Now it looks like its going to be the most restrictive since 1932. I'm not a huge fan of on demand abortion and actually like the Polish law the way it is now, but the Polish communists were certainly not near as conservative as the church on this issue. What's wrong with "on-demand" abortion?
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Apr 2, 2016 22:34
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A Pale Horse posted:I don't know about Czechia but in Poland, the abortion law was the most liberal its ever been under the commies. Now it looks like its going to be the most restrictive since 1932. I'm not a huge fan of on demand abortion and actually like the Polish law the way it is now, but the Polish communists were certainly not near as conservative as the church on this issue. In Czechoslovakia the Communist policy on abortions was pretty much what the US GOP wants to institute nowadays. It was legal in cases approved by medical commissions, illegal abortions were persecuted by indicting the persons performing them, not the women seeking them (that is, afaik, literally the GOP stance on abortions today). From a philosophical and discoursive point of view, it can be argued that women were discouraged from interruptions and shamed away from "weakening the state" by failing to live up to their role as the reproductive agents of the Communist society: http://www.genderonline.cz/uploads/a77283b65d2e3a466e00fef691c4b9182bcf7a18_interrupce-v-socialistickem-ceskoslovensku.pdf
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Apr 2, 2016 22:36
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Baronjutter posted:What's wrong with "on-demand" abortion? Believe it or not, some people don't think abortion is a standard medical procedure.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:37
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steinrokkan posted:Believe it or not, some people don't think abortion is a standard medical procedure. Well then some people are really stupid, or don't understand what the words "standard medical procedure" are.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:40
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fishmech posted:Well then some people are really stupid, or don't understand what the words "standard medical procedure" are. Most medical procedures are aimed at removing a pathology. An abortion isn't.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:42
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Baronjutter posted:What's wrong with "on-demand" abortion? I used to be all for it when I was younger, but in the course of my medical training I came to realize that a fetus is a human life and if you're going to take a human life you better have a drat good reason. I believe current Polish law allows for all the drat good reasons I could think of.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:42
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steinrokkan posted:Most medical procedures are aimed at removing a pathology. An abortion isn't. Counterpoint: cosmetic surgery.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:45
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Preserving bodily integrity is an excellent reason.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:46
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StandardVC10 posted:Counterpoint: cosmetic surgery. Cosmetic surgery is a luxury, not a human right.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:47
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steinrokkan posted:Most medical procedures are aimed at removing a pathology No they are not, unless this is some strange means of translation from your native tongue.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:47
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Anosmoman posted:Preserving bodily integrity is an excellent reason. Sure, but I still think it should be coupled with counselling.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:48
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fishmech posted:No they are not, unless this is some strange means of translation from your native tongue. Do you often go into surgery when there's nothing wrong with you?
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Apr 2, 2016 22:49
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StandardVC10 posted:Counterpoint: cosmetic surgery. Cosmetic surgery doesn't result in the loss of a human life. Not intentionally anyway.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:49
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A Pale Horse posted:Cosmetic surgery doesn't result in the loss of a human life. Not intentionally anyway. Well, neither does an abortion, depending on your personal ontology.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:50
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steinrokkan posted:Cosmetic surgery is a luxury, not a human right. Yeah? What about people with cleft lips. That's a cosmetic surgery. steinrokkan posted:Well, neither does an abortion, depending on your personal ontology. I'm very pro-choice, but arguing a fetus is not a human is pretty stupid.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:51
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i don;t like abortion but i also don't like governments being bitches and having hella control over peeps lives and such. especially piss or any eastern euro government goddamn
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Apr 2, 2016 22:52
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i wouldn't have an abortion in poland
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Apr 2, 2016 22:53
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jonnypeh posted:Russia has been arming both Azerbaijan and Armenia. Simple really - the former have plenty of money. so they are playing both sides?
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Apr 2, 2016 22:54
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steinrokkan posted:Well, neither does an abortion, depending on your personal ontology. I agree, I'm just presenting things from my perspective. quote:Yeah? What about people with cleft lips. That's a cosmetic surgery. There's an ethical difference in reconstructive plastic surgery and purely cosmetic surgery even though many plastic surgeons do both.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:54
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steinrokkan posted:Do you often go into surgery when there's nothing wrong with you? Getting your blood pressure checked is a medical procedure, in english. So is having your piss tested, or having your eyes examined. And there's tons of those procedures that don't actually do anything to alleviate a pathology in themselves. So again I ask: are you actually badly translating some term from your own language?
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Apr 2, 2016 22:54
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sparatuvs posted:Yeah? What about people with cleft lips. That's a cosmetic surgery. quote:I'm very pro-choice, but arguing a fetus is not a human is pretty stupid.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:56
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When is it okay to have an abortion? Hell if I know! It's an intensely personal decision to do that. It's not my place to say "no you can't."
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Apr 2, 2016 22:57
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fishmech posted:Getting your blood pressure checked is a medical procedure, in english. So is having your piss tested, or having your eyes examined. And there's tons of those procedures that don't actually do anything to alleviate a pathology in themselves. So again I ask: are you actually badly translating some term from your own language? Everything you've mentioned is done in furtherance of testing for, diagnosing or removing a pathology but I realize you're the king of pedantic dipshits so its futile to argue with you.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:57
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fishmech posted:Getting your blood pressure checked is a medical procedure, in english. So is having your piss tested, or having your eyes examined. And there's tons of those procedures that don't actually do anything to alleviate a pathology in themselves. So again I ask: are you actually badly translating some term from your own language? OK, i would not consider that a procedure, as it is a mere preliminary examination. Let me change this to "surgical procedure", for the sake of context, also tune down your smugness, please. Also: A Pale Horse posted:Everything you've mentioned is done in furtherance of testing for, diagnosing or removing a pathology but I realize you're the king of pedantic dipshits so its futile to argue with you.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:58
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It doesn't even matter if all fetuses were human, because most abortions take place in the embryo stage or earlier.A Pale Horse posted:Everything you've mentioned is done in furtherance of testing for, diagnosing or removing a pathology but I realize you're the king of pedantic dipshits so its futile to argue with you. That doesn't make them "procedures to fix a pathology" dude. I get, again, that maybe that means something totally different in your native language, but that's not how things work in English. But if you insist that anything that can lead to fixing a pathology is therefore a procedure to fix a pathology, then all abortions are in fact procedures that fix pathology. steinrokkan posted:OK, i would not consider that a procedure, as it is a mere preliminary examination. Let me change this to "surgical procedure", for the sake of context, also tune down your smugness, please. Many forms of abortion are not surgical procedures. Try again.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:59
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steinrokkan posted:
There is an important distinction between a human and a person.
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Apr 2, 2016 23:02
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A Pale Horse posted:Its not corrupt (in this instance), its the Catholic interpretation of the validity of abortion, in accordance with mainstream Catholic doctrine. It's just regressive like every major religion that isn't some hippy dippy new age bullshit or a dying protestant sect fighting for its survival. People can believe what they want but I can want people to believe less too because ultimately I and I guess Pierogi too believe that religion is a force for evil in the world. It helped that until JPII died, no one really dared to stand against the bullshit of the Church. He was an immensely popular figure and both post-communists and liberals decided that trying to oppose the clergy is a foregone conclusion and tried to appease them instead.
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Apr 2, 2016 23:02
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fishmech posted:Many forms of abortion are not surgical procedures. Try again. You are retarded and should have been aborted. Taking a pill is not an abortion in the sense anybody considers in this day and age.
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Apr 2, 2016 23:02
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steinrokkan posted:Taking a pill is not an abortion in the sense anybody considers in this day and age. Tell that to Hobby Lobby!
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Apr 2, 2016 23:03
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sparatuvs posted:There is an important distinction between a human and a person. Not really, children are not full persons, but we understand them as both humans and potential persons. Thus they get the full protection afforded to a person. At what point does a mass of human cells make the transition from being a simple biological sample to being a child?
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Apr 2, 2016 23:04
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