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Boris Galerkin posted:I see Pike portrayed as an out of touch leader who seriously believes that grounders are a problem and is trying to protect his people within the rules that he's known his entire life: the exodus charter, where punishment by death was a necessity to have enough food/oxygen for everyone else. I don't think he's been ever shown as a power hungry tyrant or corrupt or anything, he's just enforcing the rules. The execution scene even went out of the way to have him say that even though he can't free the grounder prisoners (because they are prisoners of war, and they are currently at war) he'd take care of them until a later time when the war is over and they can be handed off or whatever. I see that. Unfortunately his characterization as a leader who doesn't break rules and isn't needlessly cruel, but whose agenda is based on a tragic misunderstanding of the situation, was totally undercut by his slaughter of a non-threatening army, killing of wounded enemies and forcible relocation of grounders living close to the station. He's an unsympathetic villain because his concern about the law and justice is only confined to the walls of Arcadia, and even then its enforcement is based on a biased reading of the charter. Contrast with Kane whose harsh, literal interpretation of the law was motivated by trying to minimize any possible harm to humans in general.
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Apr 2, 2016 17:43
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Boris Galerkin posted:I see Pike portrayed as an out of touch leader who seriously believes that grounders are a problem and is trying to protect his people within the rules that he's known his entire life: the exodus charter, where punishment by death was a necessity to have enough food/oxygen for everyone else. I don't think he's been ever shown as a power hungry tyrant or corrupt or anything, he's just enforcing the rules. The execution scene even went out of the way to have him say that even though he can't free the grounder prisoners (because they are prisoners of war, and they are currently at war) he'd take care of them until a later time when the war is over and they can be handed off or whatever. Wait, I thought the exodus charter specifically only applied to living on the ground after their return, and was different from the laws they applied up in their space stations.
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Apr 2, 2016 18:03
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Troposphere posted:I wouldn't be sad about it. especially cause it'd free up Eliza Taylor to go on and do new things because I love her I wish tv audience wouldn't be populated by a bunch of  who invest themselves so much in one or 2 characters to the point that these need ridiculous plot armor to insure a show's survival.I loved Lincoln. He was great. Its sad that he's dead but it doesn't kill the show for me. I like that a few producers are willing to kill major characters in order to create show drama. I just wish it wouldn't create so much real drama.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:23
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and with the ratings it's getting I wouldn't blame the network for pulling it.
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Troposphere posted:it was pretty tone deaf and gratuitous in the context of the current political climate especially considering the behind the scenes bullying Ricky Whittle went through...which he says he's going to completely bring to light soon now that he's off the show which should be enlightening Because Twitter is a bastion of sanity and rational discourse, right? 
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Apr 2, 2016 19:26
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Dalael posted:Because Twitter is a bastion of sanity and rational discourse, right? it's a good tool to use to get through to networks and sponsors, which is how maybelline decided to pull out of advertising in the 100's timeslot
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Apr 2, 2016 19:28
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Troposphere posted:it's not about not ever killing minority characters, it's about recognizing harmful trends in media, calling them out and telling the networks it's not okay and people are tired of it, and hopefully inspiring show runners and writers to think more carefully about these issues in the future #OnlyStraightWhiteMinorCharactersShouldDie! Make it trend people.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:30
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raditts posted:Are you kidding, the bad guys in season 2 were way more cartoony and schizophrenic than anyone so far this season. Well, cartoony yes. Their reasoning that they had to go through with the mad scientist plots because there was a chance the sky people could say no was almost laughably diabolical. All I'm saying is they all had very clear motivations even when they were being over the top villainous. Pike on the other hand is a fascist brought in to bring inorganic tension and stakes to Arkadia politics. The show can tell me all it wants about what a hard time farm station had but all it shows me is a one-sided dictator with no depth.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:32
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hope and vaseline posted:The main problem right now is Troposphere's tumblr/twitter demographic actually did turn out to be a sizeable number of the fanbase that the show not only catered to, but pandered directly to, which did end up turning into this shitstorm that's going on now. This is the kind of fanbase (CW, see Supernatural) that stalks married men and threatens their wives, and of course actively calls out for the cancellation of a show because their pet warrior princess gets offed. The lesson here should be, don't pander to crazies. I can't wait to see Pike die and Troposphere's twitter buddies because another black guy got killed.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:33
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Troposphere posted:it's a good tool to use to get through to networks and sponsors, which is how maybelline decided to pull out of advertising in the 100's timeslot It's a way for unhinged lunatics to stalk and bully creatives, in other words.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:40
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steinrokkan posted:It's a way for unhinged lunatics to stalk and bully creatives, in other words. as a creative I'm gonna say hmmmm no
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Apr 2, 2016 19:44
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Troposphere posted:as a creative I'm gonna say hmmmm no You are right that you are part of the equation, but you picked the wrong one.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:46
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if you can't handle people criticizing your art then maybe being a creative isn't the job for you
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Apr 2, 2016 19:49
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Troposphere posted:as a creative I'm gonna say hmmmm no I hope you're not talking about your posts.
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Apr 2, 2016 19:49
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Dalael posted:I hope you're not talking about your posts. I'm talking about my profession, which is illustration
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Apr 2, 2016 19:51
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Troposphere posted:if you can't handle people criticizing your art then maybe being a creative isn't the job for you You should know that victim blaming isn't cool. Trying to shame authors into changing their vision is way beyond "criticism".
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Apr 2, 2016 19:55
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steinrokkan posted:You should know that victim blaming isn't cool. Trying to shame authors into changing their vision is way beyond "criticism". yes tell me more about how Jason rothenberg is a poor victim of Internet bullying because that doesn't sound absurd at all
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Apr 2, 2016 19:58
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Troposphere posted:yes tell me more about how Jason rothenberg is a poor victim of Internet bullying because that doesn't sound absurd at all Not really. Terrible people can still be bullied too, and the internet is filled with a ton of totally loving crazy people. On the face of it if you tell me literally anyone on the internet is being bullied, no matter who, I start from a default position of accepting it as a possibility. The title of God-Emperor of Crazy fans will always go to the fans of Supernatural, who have made death threats to the wives of the leads and called security on them at Cons to try to get them thrown out as prostitutes and all sorts of crazy poo poo. Fans of small genre shows can be utterly driven in their psychosis.
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Apr 2, 2016 20:04
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there is a difference between calling people out for being lovely and bullying them
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Apr 2, 2016 20:08
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Troposphere posted:yes tell me more about how Jason rothenberg is a poor victim of Internet bullying because that doesn't sound absurd at all Yes, people trying to shut down somebody, silence them both by harassing them directly and by applying pressure on their commercial partners, all in the name of a particular goal of a small subset of individuals, is indeed bullying, and goes against basic freedoms of the individual, and of the media. People have the right to be lovely, and trying to ruin them for this subjective assessment is in turn being actually lovely person yourself. Criticism of media doesn't involve trying to suppress the object of the critique, it merely presents an analysis that allows the affected subjects to draw their own conclusions. E: Of course, I don't expect a literal fascist of your calibre to get this. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Apr 2, 2016 |
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Apr 2, 2016 20:09
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Did I miss the Twitterverse meltdown yet? I hurried over as fast as I could after watching the show(late). I'm sad Lincoln is dead, but excited to see how this changes the dynamic of the show. Does Pike see that Grounders are people too now, after witnessing Lincoln sacrificing himself to save his people? Will Octavia murder Pike sooner or later, and when she does will there be another/continuing public outcry about killing black dudes? Will we get to see
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Apr 2, 2016 20:12
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Troposphere posted:there is a difference between calling people out for being lovely and bullying them I'd like to see proof of all that bullying. Not just "he said so and no one denies it". I'm sorry but its entirely possible that he's not being bullied and simply can't take the heat. I'm not saying its the case, but its possible. What if he's the one being a diva on set the and the producer won't have it? My point is, just because he's complaining doesn't mean its actually as bad as he and twitter claim.
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Apr 2, 2016 20:18
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steinrokkan posted:It's a way for unhinged lunatics to stalk and bully creatives, in other words. I wouldn't be surprised if most show runners were bullied into doing it by their marketing team as I cannot see how anyone in their right mind would voluntary engage with twitter.
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Apr 2, 2016 20:23
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Robutt posted:I wouldn't be surprised if most show runners were bullied into doing it by their marketing team as I cannot see how anyone in their right mind would voluntary engage with twitter. In support of your argument, I sometimes use twitter.
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Apr 2, 2016 20:25
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Dalael posted:I wish tv audience wouldn't be populated by a bunch of Besides, didn't they kill him off because he got cast on another show? They'd been spinning their wheels with his character all season.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:54
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raditts posted:Besides, didn't they kill him off because he got cast on another show? They'd been spinning their wheels with his character all season. nope he auditioned for American gods after they had filmed his death, he was a late audition
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Apr 2, 2016 22:56
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raditts posted:Besides, didn't they kill him off because he got cast on another show? They'd been spinning their wheels with his character all season. They gave him exposure to run the gravity of his death home. If he had died as some barely present grounder whose sole characteristic was dating Octavia, it wouldn't have worked.
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Apr 2, 2016 23:07
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I will miss lincoln. Especially Lincoln beating the poo poo out of people. That's when he was at his best.
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Apr 2, 2016 23:27
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Boris Galerkin posted:I see Pike portrayed as an out of touch leader who seriously believes that grounders are a problem and is trying to protect his people within the rules that he's known his entire life: the exodus charter, where punishment by death was a necessity to have enough food/oxygen for everyone else. I don't think he's been ever shown as a power hungry tyrant or corrupt or anything, he's just enforcing the rules. The execution scene even went out of the way to have him say that even though he can't free the grounder prisoners (because they are prisoners of war, and they are currently at war) he'd take care of them until a later time when the war is over and they can be handed off or whatever. Yeah, Pike's an rear end in a top hat but he sincerely believes he's doing the right thing. He spent his entire life on the Ark learning a ruthless way of doing things, than he crashed to Earth and spent months being attacked by grounders and fighting for his life and the lives of his people. The idea of peaceful Grounders or another way is just completely foreign to him and way too much of an act of faith for him to take. His actions are wrong but he truly thinks he's doing evil for a good reason. Which is the entire point of the show. Lexa thought she was doing the right thing when she sent the Grounders after The 100, or when she abandoned them at the Mountain. Clarke thought she was doing the right thing when she killed the Grounders or the Mountain Men (and Women and Children). Kane and Jaha thought they were doing the right thing when they sent the 100 to Earth or killed those 300 people on the Ark. Abby thought she was doing the right thing when she turned her husband in to Jaha. Bellamy thought he was doing the right thing when he shot Jaha to try and help his sister. This show is all about people doing evil things for what they think are good reasons at that time. And then they wrestle with the guilt of it, especially when things turn out to show it wasn't as necessary as they thought it was, but even when it probably was the necessary action like with Clarke and the Mountain Men. Pike is doing evil poo poo but he definitely seems to know that and be carrying some guilt for it. His final words to Lincoln were part of that where on some basic level he clearly respected Lincoln but felt he had to execute him to maintain order. Pike also showed some reason when Kane talked him out of killing all the Grounders. Sure, from our perspective killing Kane, Lincoln, and Sinclair is decidedly awful but if Pike were a madman he would have just killed them all and wouldn't be using resources on the Grounder prisoners.
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Apr 3, 2016 00:21
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Then again - The Nazis actually kept Jews alive for years before killing them. If simply interning an "ethnic" group is considered to be a not the worst possible course of action, we should contrast it with its historical counterparts.
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Apr 3, 2016 00:27
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But again, the problem is that there is no 'worse' alternative to Pike, so he is never going to be truly seen as someone making the best out of a bad situation.
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Apr 3, 2016 00:32
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steinrokkan posted:I see that. Unfortunately his characterization as a leader who doesn't break rules and isn't needlessly cruel, but whose agenda is based on a tragic misunderstanding of the situation, was totally undercut by his slaughter of a non-threatening army, killing of wounded enemies and forcible relocation of grounders living close to the station. I mean, him killing all the Grounders was less about the Exodus Charter or whatever and more about the fact that for months the only thing he knew were Grounders killing his people. Pike doesn't have the experience to understand or believe that there are different tribes and different ways of doing things. He can't tell the difference between "Tree Crew" and "Ice Nation" and he finds the idea of it embarrassingly naive. That's wrong and arguably racist (or whatever) but its also born out of his genuine experience of being terrorized by them and it being the only experience he had with Grounders up to that point. Well that and the one time he went along with Bellamy and Octavia to trust a Grounder she went and betrayed them and killed more of his people. Something like Lincoln sacrificing himself is a nobility and honor that he had not seen in Grounders before and theoretically could act to change his thinking in some way. Which is actually narratively really cool since it was Lincoln who inspired The 100 and the Grounders to see a path for peace in the first place. Lincoln's death may serve the symbol of hope and peace that he always has been, which is basically what Kane told him at the start of the episode. Kane's a better guy NOW but he only get there after being a pretty massive dictatorial rear end in a top hat in S1 but then being guilt ridden that he pushed for the death of hundreds for no good reason, being wrong about the 100 being dead, experiencing his Ark ways failing on the Ground and the 100 having more success, and having personal experience with Lincoln, Indra, and Lexa. That's all knowledge and experience that Pike basically has the exact opposite of. steinrokkan posted:Then again - The Nazis actually kept Jews alive for years before killing them. If simply interning an "ethnic" group is considered to be a not the worst possible course of action, we should contrast it with its historical counterparts. I'm not in any way defending Pike's actions. As I said, he's doing truly evil poo poo and he's the villain. But this is a show that's basically about leaders committing war crimes and evil acts because they're put into dangerous situations and given difficult choices. Sometimes they make the right decision, sometimes they make the wrong one, but its almost always a really horrible act. But like, in a lot of ways Bellamy is a bigger villain this season because he's seen all the good things about Grounders that Kane has and he's still being seduced by Pike's ignorance and anger. He's grieving and desperate and all but there's a reason we're seeing the "good guys" so angry and disgusted by Bellamy and Monty. Because in a lot of ways they should have known better than Pike.
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Apr 3, 2016 00:37
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TMMadman posted:But again, the problem is that there is no 'worse' alternative to Pike, so he is never going to be truly seen as someone making the best out of a bad situation. Ice Nation?
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Apr 3, 2016 00:43
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STAC Goat posted:Something like Lincoln sacrificing himself is a nobility and honor that he had not seen in Grounders before and theoretically could act to change his thinking in some way. I agree - that would be a potentially smart move by the screen writers. Pike trying to revise his approach towards the grounders based on his growing understanding of their culture, only to be opposed by his own faction, and by the revenge-seeking grounders such as Octavia. Nevertheless, I don't think this show has enough subtlety, and enough space to execute such an intricate character development.
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Apr 3, 2016 00:48
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The show has had plenty of subtle character moments before, unlike some I have not given up on the writers. 
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Apr 3, 2016 00:58
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Troposphere posted:the gross way they killed Lincoln has pissed even more people off and it's all trending on Twitter constantly. The thing I want to see go down in flames is twitter and all the drama it serves as a free no-effort megaphone for. Troposphere posted:also protect poc characters is trending on Twitter right now Whittle is going on to American Gods. Good for him getting away from this shitshow of juvenile twitter drama. Troposphere posted:as "a creative" I'm gonna say Is this a game? If I tap you on the shoulder and say "now youre a tree!" does that mean you go outside and stop typing about twitter?
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Apr 3, 2016 01:27
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just because you disagree with me doesn't mean my profession magically changes
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Apr 3, 2016 01:33
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Yeah, posting pictures from a basement to Deviantart and Twitter is a profession, I know, please do not be agitated.
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Apr 3, 2016 01:34
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steinrokkan posted:Yeah, posting pictures from a basement to Deviantart and Twitter is a profession, I know, please do not be agitated. sick burn bro
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Apr 3, 2016 01:36
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You may be a creative but you sure as poo poo have a hosed up critical paradigm.
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Apr 3, 2016 01:53
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good to see we've resorted to personal insults because of differences in opinion on sci-fi television shows
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Apr 3, 2016 01:55
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