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Kemper Boyd posted:Talking elsewhere about cool and casual ways to approach history and this dude was brought up. Smug incarnate.
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Apr 2, 2016 20:19
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Kemper Boyd posted:Talking elsewhere about cool and casual ways to approach history and this dude was brought up. I had to give up about a third of the way through. It was worse than when I watched it the first time.
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Apr 2, 2016 22:03
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Looking through the Daily Telegraph's uploads from 100 years ago, I noticed this: I can't say that I'm shocked that someone would think to have zeppelin insurance, but I'm still fascinated by its existence.
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Apr 3, 2016 03:08
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omg guys guys they make tiny little sets of harness  eeek and infant-sized swords Johanna Vergouwen, 1668
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Apr 3, 2016 03:14
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Libluini posted:I'm LPing an old SF-strategy game right now and the (two) programmers apparently tried really hard to put a lot of really clever and "realistic", but also really boring and mostly undocumented stuff into combat. It is rear end Sword of the Stars? Sounds like Sword of the Stars.
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Apr 3, 2016 06:12
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I love how even though I can't understand a single word in this the acting is good enough that I can't help but laugh a bit as I watch the gears in poor Hans's brain start to grind against each other in protest at the end. Also I'm so glad I found this thread. So very fun to read actual history nerds chatting even though WWII stuff tends to predominate the chat. To be fair it's very interesting, especially when talking about the reactions of C-stoff and T-stoff and how you never want to be anywhere near that stoff. Surprised Substance N never came up during that chat (a.k.a. CFl a.k.a. "the poo poo that was too dangerous for even the Nazis to use"). It's just that WWII chat tends to get in the way of the equally very fascinating "anything predating mechanized war" chat by being so prevalent. Love reading about that stuff...though I doubt I'll add much since most I know about such topics is from the 1632/Ring of Fire alt-history stories. You can laugh, I understand Also, "Today in WWI" has to be one of my favorite thread gimmicks I've ever seen. A mixture of horrifying and hilarious as entire armies basically run around in place like chickens with their heads cut off.
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Apr 3, 2016 07:05
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TheFluff posted:Gonna dump a few pics I found amusing. Swedish Centurion fitted with experimental steel chain standoff screens. August 1976. jingle tank
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Apr 3, 2016 07:16
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HEY GAL posted:i've never met any actual swedes, despite the people i reenact with Christian is not a good Swedish name.
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Apr 3, 2016 12:37
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Would expect Gustav and Bernard to be popular with reanactors, or is there few people being Swedish?
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Apr 3, 2016 13:10
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Grand Prize Winner posted:Sword of the Stars? Sounds like Sword of the Stars. Your guess is 16 years too late. Prepare to be bored out of your mind!
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Apr 3, 2016 14:32
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Libluini posted:Your guess is 16 years too late. Prepare to be bored out of your mind! So you took a glance at the Aurora LP, and decided you wanted something like that, but uglier and boring?
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Apr 3, 2016 14:51
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JcDent posted:So you took a glance at the Aurora LP, and decided you wanted something like that, but uglier and boring? I avoid the Aurora LP like the plague, so nope. Instead, it started with me importing a game to try out my Atari ST and ended with me deciding the world should feel my pain and I wish this game was boring instead it's infuriating But at least the programmers tried to model stuff like training and attrition in their ground battle model. Very badly of course, since they seemed to be high as gently caress while programming this mess.
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Apr 3, 2016 15:01
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Libluini posted:I avoid the Aurora LP like the plague, so nope. Well, if you want boring, you can also go for my Fallout Tactics LP, where ADD MORE HP is how you advance difficulty, and "burst fire does increasing amounts of damage to secondary targets" was apparently to subtle of a bug to patch out.
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Apr 3, 2016 20:27
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RC and Moon Pie posted:Looking through the Daily Telegraph's uploads from 100 years ago, I noticed this: I love stuff like this. Shows us how we could be scared by any big thing of the time.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:05
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JcDent posted:Well, if you want boring, you can also go for my Fallout Tactics LP, where ADD MORE HP is how you advance difficulty, and "burst fire does increasing amounts of damage to secondary targets" was apparently to subtle of a bug to patch out. At the least the makers of that game didn't include a way to kill yourself by using the options menu. (Man, I hope they didn't. I bookmarked your LP to find out.)
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Apr 3, 2016 21:29
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Plan Z posted:I love stuff like this. Shows us how we could be scared by any big thing of the time.
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Apr 3, 2016 21:36
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Chamale posted:The character's real name turns out to be Franek Dolas. I just found out that the actor playing him died two weeks ago. Rest in Peace  But yeah I know nothing about that movie except for that scene so I'm disappointed that the character wasn't wandering through life with that name.
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Apr 3, 2016 22:07
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I realize I might cause a shitstorm, but, uh, was racism on the American side one of the cause of Vietnam war?
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Apr 4, 2016 10:16
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If you classify communists as a race, then sure.
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Apr 4, 2016 10:31
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JcDent posted:I realize I might cause a shitstorm, but, uh, was racism on the American side one of the cause of Vietnam war? It's a rum do. Officially, no, and I don't think there was much racist in the intent of policy makers. However, all political developments are a product of their time, and the same people who created domino theory, may well also have thought that asian people were weaker or inferior. I don't really think it's possible to decide how much racism played a part in causing the war, but a qualified guess would be "not a lot, if at all".
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Apr 4, 2016 10:37
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JcDent posted:I realize I might cause a shitstorm, but, uh, was racism on the American side one of the cause of Vietnam war? I don't think the US would have backed the (rather sketchy) government of South Vietnam and recruited, trained, and armed the mountain tribes if the war was motivated by anti-Vietnamese racism, no.
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Apr 4, 2016 10:46
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HEY GAL posted:I don't know if it's fear exactly, I think a lot of insurance policies don't cover things that happen to your property during wartime. And note this was the first time in centuries that a British civilian in Britain need have any concern about their property during a war; it was a bit of a novelty at the time. I somehow doubt anyone was offering similar insurance during the Blitz...
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Apr 4, 2016 11:11
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There was a little bit of the old monolithic Asiatic hordes nonsense, especially after the way the Chinese fought in the Korean War. American attitudes towards the "Vietnam War" are very strange. The Japanese invasion of the area was a major reason we put the embargo on Japan that caused them to attack us at Pearl Harbor. We were heavily involved in that country from the 40''s on, but we view the conflict that ramped up in the earlly 60's as a discrete entity that came out of basically nowhere. Also poor Ho Chi Minh! He always had the highest hopes for the United States. He was at Versailles trying to convince Americans that Wilson's principles should apply to Vietnam. An OSS medic saved his life during the struggle against the Japanese. He put a quotation from the Declaration of Independence right at the beginning of Vietnam's declaration of independence. And we turned him into a boogeyman.
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Apr 4, 2016 11:23
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It's just that I got into a discussion over racism of Vietnam war over this Black Panther quote:quote:"The enslavement of Black people at the very founding of this country, the genocide practiced on American Indians and the confinement of the survivors on reservations, the savage lynching of thousands of Black men and women, the dropping of atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the cowardly massacre in Vietnam all testify to the fact that toward people of color the racist power structure of America has but one policy: repression, genocide, terror and the big stick"
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Apr 4, 2016 11:51
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Well, America's treatment of the Vietnamese in the 20th century definitely goes against two Presidential pledges that America would guarantee very specific freedoms for oppressed peoples: the Fourteen Points and the Atlantic Charter. We mostly didn't uphold these pledges in the case of the Vietnamese because it would have been super hard and we didn't really feel like it, but there's a case to be made that racism was a factor.
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Apr 4, 2016 12:19
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Wilson was a huge racist who never wanted the Fourteen Points to apply to non-White countries (and Japan).
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Apr 4, 2016 12:27
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It's definitely true that racism *was* a factor in how the Vietnam war developed. But to say it 'caused' the war is amusingly simplistic at best. That said, trying to analyze a polemic like that in terms of its factual accuracy is a fool's game. "Repression, genocide, terror and the big stick" aren't even "one policy", not in even the loosest sense of the word. But pretty much every political statement about history is at best a half truth, with a specific goal in mind.
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Apr 4, 2016 12:38
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JcDent posted:It's just that I got into a discussion over racism of Vietnam war over this Black Panther quote: The Panther is not wrong, but notice that he says that "repression" is a "policy". Sure, massacres against asians were committed, but they were as much a product of poor morale, desperation and common cruelty, if not more, than just racism.
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Apr 4, 2016 12:48
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cheerfullydrab posted:Well, America's treatment of the Vietnamese in the 20th century definitely goes against two Presidential pledges that America would guarantee very specific freedoms for oppressed peoples: the Fourteen Points and the Atlantic Charter. We mostly didn't uphold these pledges in the case of the Vietnamese because it would have been super hard and we didn't really feel like it, but there's a case to be made that racism was a factor. What freedom for oppressed peoples do you think applies from the Fourteen Points? I mean there's: 'V. A free, open-minded, and absolutely impartial adjustment of all colonial claims, based upon a strict observance of the principle that in determining all such questions of sovereignty the interests of the populations concerned must have equal weight with the equitable government whose title is to be determined.' but that doesn't even unequivocally mean 'the place shouldn't be run by the French'. (as you'd expect given that when the Points were espoused colonialism was very much still the rule of the day among America's allies).
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Apr 4, 2016 13:44
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Tias posted:The Panther is not wrong, but notice that he says that "repression" is a "policy". Sure, massacres against asians were committed, but they were as much a product of poor morale, desperation and common cruelty, if not more, than just racism. Well, the whole "the nukes were only/primarily dropped on Japan because of racism" is certifiably false.
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Apr 4, 2016 13:47
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WW2 Data As we read more entries in the IJN's bomb inventory, we come across a few more rockets and cluster munitions. For example, there's the 1kg hollow charge bombs they used in clusters. There's even an entry on a bomb that was still in development when the war came to an end. But what was the bombs purpose? Which bomb was capable of being exploded by the pilot and what was its target? Which rocket was intended to be used like the German R4M? All that and more at the blog! 
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Apr 4, 2016 14:24
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ArchangeI posted:Well, the whole "the nukes were only/primarily dropped on Japan because of racism" is certifiably false. Well, definitely. I was talking about the Vietnam war.
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Apr 4, 2016 14:32
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Fangz posted:It's definitely true that racism *was* a factor in how the Vietnam war developed. But to say it 'caused' the war is amusingly simplistic at best. Yeah, Truman studiously refused to get involved in Indochina in any way until China and the USSR recognized NV and began sending them arms. Only when it became a Cold War showdown did it matter to him at all. Both Ho Chi Minh and France begged Truman to intervene on their behalf against the other numerous times. Truman had no interest in helping the French with their colonial ambitions, nor did he want to fight against his recent WWII ally. The US got involved to stop the spread of Communism, full stop.
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Apr 4, 2016 14:40
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Deteriorata posted:Yeah, Truman studiously refused to get involved in Indochina in any way until China and the USSR recognized NV and began sending them arms. Only when it became a Cold War showdown did it matter to him at all. The Indochina question was fairly insignificant compared to Truman's concerns in Europe. There was a lot of concern that the 4th Republic would go commie of its own volition and the Mutual Defense Assistance Act/Mutual Security Act were really intended to prevent this more than anything else.
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Apr 4, 2016 15:02
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JcDent posted:I realize I might cause a shitstorm, but, uh, was racism on the American side one of the cause of Vietnam war? It's not a "cause" of the war because we were not there to dominate the Vietnamese or do them harm specifically because we thought they were an inferior race. Rather I would say that racism was a contributing factor to the Vietnam War. It caused policy-makers to see most of the planet (i.e. the third world) simply as a field in which opposing American and Soviet strategic interests played out, rather than those people having their own reasons and purposes. I think the best example to explain what I'm saying is the very popular notion that the Truman administration had "lost" China. The underlying assumption is that China in some sense belonged to the United States and had been lost through an error of American policy, instead of the Chinese Civil War being something determined by the Chinese. They entertained similar notions about the Middle East, or Vietnam--that these places and their populations existed mainly in terms of American access to strategic resources, that the locals in any given third world country had no agency and were merely elements in a Soviet-led global conspiracy, that these locals could be ignored until they became a problem at which point they could be subjected to violence in ways that would not be acceptable if applied to European countries, etc. Your quote from the Black Panther isn't necessarily wrong in the broad strokes (although some of the details definitely are wrong), but it does seem to assert a level of active malevolence that I don't think really existed. I think a better way to put it is that underlying American foreign policy was a conviction that people of color didn't matter in the same way as white people, and therefore it was permissible to act in their parts of the world in ways that we probably would not have done, had they been white. In Vietnam this was explicitly stated as the idea that Vietnamese people did not value life in the same way as Americans, and variations on that theme can be found in nearly any American conflict up through the present day. For example, conservatives dusted it off to argue that we couldn't negotiate with Iran, because Muslims don't value their lives or fear death as we do. Another problem with looking at this as a cause of wars, or imperialist policies generally, is the difficulty of determining your order of operations. Do we have imperialism because of racism, or does imperialism create and perpetuate racism to justify the unequal power relationship and abuse of indigenous peoples?
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Apr 4, 2016 21:06
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Does anyone have an accurate TOE for a contemporary Russian division?
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Apr 4, 2016 21:53
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EvanSchenck posted:
I think it's safe to say we could not have imperialism without racism, but that's a bit above and beyond the question asked. I simply can't agree that racism was a cause of the vietnam war, because even if policymakers weren't racists, the agressive anti-communism would have let to a conflict of some scope anyway.
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Apr 4, 2016 22:19
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JcDent posted:I realize I might cause a shitstorm, but, uh, was racism on the American side one of the cause of Vietnam war? If you are at all interested in the history of why the US went to war in Vietnam, you should read The Best and the Brightest by David Halberstam. It's probably got some out of date stuff in it since it's over 40 years old at this point but as a narrative history of how the US got embroiled in Vietnam you won't find a better starting point.
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Apr 4, 2016 22:21
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bewbies posted:Does anyone have an accurate TOE for a contemporary Russian division? Didn't they too switch over to a brigade structure?
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Apr 4, 2016 22:53
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hogmartin posted:I don't think the US would have backed the (rather sketchy) government of South Vietnam and recruited, trained, and armed the mountain tribes if the war was motivated by anti-Vietnamese racism, no. Using someone doesn't mean you like them.
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