|
Ningyou posted:"someone was raped and the cops victim-blamed and didn't pursue her case, which is actually not an uncommon thing and has been written about a bunch? WOW LET ME STOP YOU THERE we are off to the absurdity rodeo" I think the problem is more that her blog appears to indicate that she has been victim blamed by every cop she's ever met, which seems unlikely for someone living in the west from the mid 90s onwards.
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 22:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 19:47 |
|
|
bongwizzard posted:If that is what you guys want, then sure, I will drop it. But I don't believe at all that it will help anything. "Getting people on board" requires getting them to take you seriously, which was the point I was trying to address. Right now, you are having a harder time being taken seriously, than she is. Maybe that says something about how word choice matters less and having something important and valid to say matters more? NTRabbit posted:I think the problem is more that her blog appears to indicate that she has been victim blamed by every cop she's ever met, which seems unlikely. The police are overwhelmingly male. There is mountains of evidence describing in detail the way the police have systematically ignored or discounted reports of sexual abuse and assault, to the degree that to this day the vast majority of sexual assaults go unreported. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, but I guess it still is. https://www.google.com/search?q=police+failure+sexual+assault+cases&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Apr 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 22:50
|
|
|
NTRabbit posted:I think the problem is more that her blog appears to indicate that she has been victim blamed by every cop she's ever met, which seems unlikely. If you believe this is genuinely unlikely, I'm sorry to say you probably haven't had a lot of conversations with victims of abuse. This sort of mentality is terrifyingly rampant.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 22:51
|
|
|
Dulkor posted:If you believe this is genuinely unlikely, I'm sorry to say you probably haven't had a lot of conversations with victims of abuse. This sort of mentality is terrifyingly rampant. In my experience using critical thinking skills is not terrifyingly rampant, no. I could believe some cops, even many cops, but every cop reads like the same sort of exaggeration that is evident when drawing a line from the actual Wyrd thread as presented, to her claims about what happened. Just because harassment is real, and prevalent in many places, doesn't mean I'm prepared to accept every claim at face value, without evaluation. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Apr 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 22:53
|
|
|
bongwizzard posted:If that is what you guys want, then sure, I will drop it. But I don't believe at all that it will help anything. "Getting people on board" requires getting them to take you seriously, which was the point I was trying to address. No one is interested in getting people like you onboard. Your opinion doesn't matter, and you're busy actively proving that you're a dedicated part of the problem.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:00
|
|
|
This whole things reads like sdth.txt simply because no nerd that bad is going to have the balls to do that poo poo out in the open, and I say that as someone who had a group email me telling me not to bring my black girlfriend anymore because she "made then feel uncomfortable".. I've been around some awkward table top people but none that would ever tell a thirteen year old "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" or flat out slap a stranger's rear end. Maybe I've just never met/interacted with/seen this in my 32 years of the hobby and other nerdy hobbies (many with POC or women), or even the population at large that I find it so bizarre.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:01
|
|
|
Leperflesh posted:One way is to call out people who want to redirect the conversation into a criticism of the tone, word choice, or attitude of the people who are doing the complaining, and pile on them until they are willing to stop derailing the conversation. I suppose that's valid. I guess by dog piling on him we are still discussing the issues. It seems like a distraction from the real problems, though. I guess it's not like us discussing the issues here would ever do more than just expose the toxic elements in our community and give ourselves better understanding and tools to spot the issues in our own lives and respond to them, I suppose. Unless we organized something bigger, that is. NTRabbit posted:In my experience using critical thinking skills is not terrifyingly rampant, no. I could believe some cops, even many cops, but every cop reads like the same sort of exaggeration that is evident when drawing a line from the actual Wyrd thread as presented, to her claims about what happened. Doubting claims of abuse is exactly what abusers want and why so few abuse cases get reported. It's part of a culture that perpetuates sexism and oppression.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:03
|
|
|
If your immediate reaction to more evidence that gaming has a massive problem with harassment towards women and minorities is "BUT SHE USED THE WORD TERRORISM AND SOME PEOPLE (BUT TOTALLY NOT ME GUYS, HONEST) MIGHT NOT TAKE HER SERIOUSLY AS A RESULT," you have a problem.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:04
|
|
|
Let's say that her claims are exaggerated. Who loving cares? Even if just a tenth of a tenth of an hundredth of what she said is based on reality, it would still be unacceptable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:09
|
|
|
Covok posted:Doubting claims of abuse is exactly what abusers want and why so few abuse cases get reported. It's part of a culture that perpetuates sexism and oppression. So I'm supposed to accept all claims of abuse, without any supporting evidence at all, no matter how they appear? Sorry, that's not how it works, nor should it ever be how it works.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:10
|
|
|
We (as a society) should, of course, apply standards of proof and reasonable doubt to any accusation of criminal behavior. I hope no reasonable person is arguing against that. The problem here (and it's a problem, of course, in society as a whole, including gaming) seems to be that the victim's claims are not even being taken seriously or followed up on by the authorities whose responsibility it is to do so. e: Talking, of course, about the actual criminal behavior and not the toxic but non-criminal aspects of nerd culture.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:10
|
|
|
Fenarisk posted:This whole things reads like sdth.txt simply because no nerd that bad is going to have the balls to do that poo poo out in the open, and I say that as someone who had a group email me telling me not to bring my black girlfriend anymore because she "made then feel uncomfortable".. I've been around some awkward table top people but none that would ever tell a thirteen year old "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" or flat out slap a stranger's rear end. When I was in high school, I saw something like this in the first group I was in. We were playing after school when a female classmate asked to borrow a quarter for the payphone. One of the guys at the table informed her he could give her one if she got up on the table and stripped. Stuff like she described happens.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:12
|
|
|
Serious side-eye for anyone who's first reaction to a claim of sexual harassment/assault is "she made it up!" Good job perpetuating the myth that women lie about this sort of thing for... attention? I guess?
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:13
|
|
|
NTRabbit posted:So I'm supposed to accept all claims of abuse, without any supporting evidence at all, no matter how they appear? Would you hold this exact same standard to any other claim of a crime taking place? Theft, breaking and entering, assault, etc.? I imagine most people say they would, but the reality in western culture is that sexual assault/harassment aren't held to the same standards as other crimes. If you post on facebook about how you got robbed, you'll typically get sympathy. If a woman posts about having an experience with a sexual assault, she's going to get comments about what she was wearing, did she defend herself adequately, doubts anything really happened, why was she even there, etc. etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:15
|
|
|
NTRabbit posted:In my experience using critical thinking skills is not terrifyingly rampant, no. NTRabbit posted:I could believe some cops, even many cops, but every cop reads like the same sort of exaggeration that is evident when drawing a line from the actual Wyrd thread as presented, to her claims about what happened.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:15
|
|
|
bongwizzard posted:Exactly. I did this, on ENWorld, in as concise and as non-aggressive a way I could. And I encountered far more dismissiveness and hostility from several posters there than I did with the same message on RPGnet or Min-Max Boards. I posted it on GiantITP, and I heard some MRA-sympathetic folks asking why I'm bringing politics into gaming culture; which carries the unfortunate implications that people's existences and lived experiences are inherently political (ex: see the reaction of adding a trans* person into a game, or alternating between masculine and feminine pronouns in 3rd Edition D&D). The thread resulted in a lot of hurt feelings and bannings, but I did convince one guy of the validity of trigger warnings. Messages matter, as does how one delivers it. And a less provocative title on the linked Tumblr might have gotten some more readers. But it's like Anita Sarkeesian; sometimes the message itself will turn people away, regardless of tone. Libertad! fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Apr 3, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:17
|
|
|
NTRabbit posted:So I'm supposed to accept all claims of abuse, without any supporting evidence at all, no matter how they appear? if you were a judge or juror in a court of law then yes the burden of proof is on the defendant (though actually proving sexual violence isn't particularly easy), but unless you're like, i don't know, incredibly stupid or something, you surely can understand that Events take place in a World which hosts Societies, and that we currently do not exist in a Society which values the sexual health or physical, economic, or mental well-being of women particularly highly esp in male dominated institutions. this makes it very difficult to actually come forward when these things happen because women (as well as gay men) see the immediate skepticism both by these institutions but people outside of them for a crime which is both difficult to prove happened and not strongly pursued much of the time. it's Irresponsible for us as people who want to see a more verdant and kind world to contribute to that culture of fear. again this is different if youre literally the person deciding whether or not to subject a potentially innocent individual to the American Prison Industrial Complex, a fate that no one should have to endure tbqh, but we arent in that situation
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:19
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:if you were a judge or juror in a court of law then yes the burden of proof is on the defendant (though actually proving sexual violence isn't particularly easy), but unless you're like, i don't know, incredibly stupid or something, you surely can understand that Events take place in a World which hosts Societies, and that we currently do not exist in a Society which values the sexual health or physical, economic, or mental well-being of women particularly highly esp in male dominated institutions. this makes it very difficult to actually come forward when these things happen because women (as well as gay men) see the immediate skepticism both by these institutions but people outside of them for a crime which is both difficult to prove happened and not strongly pursued much of the time. it's Irresponsible for us as people who want to see a more verdant and kind world to contribute to that culture of fear. again this is different if youre literally the person deciding whether or not to subject a potentially innocent individual to the American Prison Industrial Complex, a fate that no one should have to endure tbqh, but we arent in that situation I thought the burdern of proof was on the accuser Or is that only an American thing, idk
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:25
|
|
|
Fenarisk posted:This whole things reads like sdth.txt simply because no nerd that bad is going to have the balls to do that poo poo out in the open, and I say that as someone who had a group email me telling me not to bring my black girlfriend anymore because she "made then feel uncomfortable".. I've been around some awkward table top people but none that would ever tell a thirteen year old "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" or flat out slap a stranger's rear end. Presumably, she was 13 quite a while ago, given the dates mentioned. Presumably, she did not discuss in the article the times when the police were more helpful, or the cases where people around her were actually helpful or supportive. It's not incumbent on her to do so, though. Her article is pointing out that sexist and racist bullshit happens a lot; if it was so rare, it wouldn't have happened so many times to the same woman. It's only an online poll, but: The results of a survey of 3600 regular con attendees included a 25 percent rate of reporting having been personally sexually harassed in the industry, and an 8% rate of having been groped, assaulted, or raped at a comic book convention. The blog post references this survey. An 8% sexual assault rate? OK, sure, even if you discount the survey results by assuming respondents were more likely than the general attendee population to complete the survey on the basis that con attendees who have been sexually harassed or assaulted would be more likely to seek out online resources like this one, it's still a big number. Given the size of that number... and given that we can probably safely assume that certain subsets of con attendees are more likely to be sexually assaulted than others (that is, young, attractive women are the most likely), it's not at all unlikely that one woman who attends comic cons annually for a decade or two would suffer multiple assaults. Not every report of sexual assault or harassment is honest. That's a fact. It's also irrelevant to the discussion. There's simply no possibility that the degree and severity and consistency of reported harassments and assaults could all boil down to just a bunch of attention-seeking dishonest people. That means it's real, and if it's real, then it's something worth talking about and - wherever possible - acting against. Covok posted:Doubting claims of abuse is exactly what abusers want and why so few abuse cases get reported. It's part of a culture that perpetuates sexism and oppression.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:26
|
|
|
Bedlamdan posted:I thought the burdern of proof was on the accuser that's actually what i meant, sorry
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:28
|
|
|
Countblanc posted:that's actually what i meant, sorry oh ok, no big deal
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:29
|
|
|
i remember i once was in bongwhizzard's position on these very forums, thinking i was being helpful by tone policing incidentally, i got told to shut the gently caress up and in the end i learned something and well, i hope the same happens to him
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:43
|
|
|
Just a quick message to all the people who think "I never see that!" Think really hard. Do you really never see it? Or do you see it and write it off as "oh, they're just kidding, it's all in good fun." Be honest with yourself here. If you still honestly have never seen this poo poo happen, well, good for you then. You've successfully avoided the lovely core of the hobby. Please don't crap on the people who haven't been so lucky.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:47
|
|
|
Fenarisk posted:This whole things reads like sdth.txt simply because no nerd that bad is going to have the balls to do that poo poo out in the open, and I say that as someone who had a group email me telling me not to bring my black girlfriend anymore because she "made then feel uncomfortable".. I've been around some awkward table top people but none that would ever tell a thirteen year old "old enough to bleed, old enough to breed" or flat out slap a stranger's rear end. I wouldn't presume somebody shouting that is a pedophile, and more likely a tone-deaf rear end in a top hat. There are some people that think aping deliberately shocking nonsense from a 1990s punk song ("Let's gently caress" by The Dwarves, for the record) passes for wit, without realizing it makes them sound like monsters. "If there's grass on the green, then it's time to mow.", was a line I heard making the rounds around the same time, not from people who meant it seriously, but who thought transgression = funny. But I got to see the real damage done to friends by predators in the TG scene, and it was never funny for me again.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:49
|
|
|
FWIW, I am personally familiar with a lot of the places/events/etc this person is talking about, and nothing she's describing sounds unlikely here. Especially not the behaviour of the RCMP and police. The behaviour she's describing is extremely consistent with what I know of them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 3, 2016 23:52
|
|
|
Alien Rope Burn posted:I wouldn't presume somebody shouting that is a pedophile, and more likely a tone-deaf rear end in a top hat. There are some people that think aping deliberately shocking nonsense from a 1990s punk song ("Let's gently caress" by The Dwarves, for the record) passes for wit, without realizing it makes them sound like monsters. "If there's grass on the green, then it's time to mow.", was a line I heard making the rounds around the same time, not from people who meant it seriously, but who thought transgression = funny. But I got to see the real damage done to friends by predators in the TG scene, and it was never funny for me again. The line I heard at my table, many years ago, was "If there's moss in the underdark, you can play in the cave." I thought it was pretty funny at the time, and to be fair I think it still would be in the right context - among friends who know each other well, with a shared history and who are comfortable in each other's presence, tasteless jokes can be permissible. Calling it out in a public space, directed at an actual minor, though? gently caress, no. I've known enough awkward nerds through the years that I can easily believe it happened, though. neongrey posted:FWIW, I am personally familiar with a lot of the places/events/etc this person is talking about, and nothing she's describing sounds unlikely here. Especially not the behaviour of the RCMP and police. The behaviour she's describing is extremely consistent with what I know of them. I'm not familiar with the cons in question, but I can affirm the RCMP is a special kind of bad. A unique* blend of corrupt, lazy, and incompetent. * At least, I hope it's unique. Probably not. Falstaff fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Apr 4, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 00:10
|
|
|
Libertad! posted:I did this, on ENWorld, in as concise and as non-aggressive a way I could. And I encountered far more dismissiveness and hostility from several posters there than I did with the same message on RPGnet or Min-Max Boards. To be frank it's unsurprising for the same reason the initial post was so unsurprising. Nerd culture is goddamn garbage, and one of the biggest reasons for it comes from nerds refusing to be critical about anything that touches them in the slightest. The idea that their "fellow nerds" could be bad, much less their entire hobby be mired in poo poo, is beyond the pale to them. There is no amount of message massaging, no amount of careful deliverance, that will help. ENWorld especially was unsurprising when you consider how abhorrent it's sister site of CircvsMaximvs is. These are the sorta places where people like Zak S thrive. Hell, this is the INDUSTRY in which they thrive. As for what you can do, especially if you aren't their target victim, you can call them the gently caress out. Break those stupid "geek social fallacies" over your knee. You call that poo poo out if it's anywhere near you, no matter how unconnected to it you are. This poo poo continues to exist because nerds are given nonstop free passes. Stop coddling them and tell them to shut the gently caress up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 00:19
|
|
|
NTRabbit posted:In my experience using critical thinking skills is not terrifyingly rampant, no. I could believe some cops, even many cops, but every cop reads like the same sort of exaggeration that is evident when drawing a line from the actual Wyrd thread as presented, to her claims about what happened. Literally the only thing you need to do here is say "Those experiences shouldn't happen to anyone. When I see someone encountering a similar situation, I will stand up and say something." But instead you're saying "Prove it." That's terrible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 00:24
|
|
|
Regardless of whether any/all of this did happen, it's perfectly formatted to fit STDH.txt, down to "and then they all started chanting in unison." Then the atheist professor accepted Jesus into his heart and the whole class applauded. The cop called her a drunk slut. The Warhammer guys were literal group-thinking pedos who synchronized their harassment. Bad Guys here behave exactly as Bad Guys are expected to behave everything is black and white. It's also conveniently unquestionable, since questioning a victim's story is really loving tacky and contributes to the problem. I don't think it's unlikely that this person had some bad experiences, but the fact that the bad things went down in such cookie-cutter perfection just makes it look like FW:FW:FW:FW:GET MAD bait. Which, big loving surprise, got people mad. Most of the reason STDH parables exist and persist is that someone always says "it doesn't matter if it's true, the message is what's important." E: and for fucks sake if you see something, say something. The hobby won't get better on its own and if Tumblr stories help to raise awareness they're a net positive regardless. moths fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Apr 4, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 00:26
|
|
|
moths posted:Regardless of whether any/all of this did happen, it's perfectly formatted to fit STDH.txt, down to "and then they all started chanting in unison." You're weird. Inventing conspiracy theories about literary technique as applied to the plausibility of someone's personal account. The truth is out there about this blog, Scully.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 00:38
|
|
|
moths posted:I thought the blog post was a mean-spirited parody of actual harassment victim blogs. But I stopped reading at "a guy handed me a roofie Pepsi and then the cops called me a slut." It counts on it being always-wrong to question a victim, then rides the premise to the absurdity rodeo for whatever laughs assholes get out of doing that. moths posted:Regardless of whether any/all of this did happen, it's perfectly formatted to fit STDH.txt, down to "and then they all started chanting in unison." When you find yourself in a hole, first stop digging. no really though how does someone talking about poo poo that is known to happen often happening to them make this some crazy Nerd Marine Todd chain letter also lmao how is *groups of nerds making rapey, skeevy jokes* one of the big things that breaks your suspension of disbelief Ningyou fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Apr 4, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 00:45
|
|
|
I'd be less likely to call it dishonesty and more twenty years of trauma filtered through a mind trying to cope. I was bullied a lot as a kid (countdown to someone saying "everyone was bullied as a kid, suck it up"...) and between depression, other medical issues, and the actual abuse it's been a heck of a time for me to unpack what influenced what, which memories I've adjusted, and how bad things actually were. And in the end what really happened doesn't make one lick of difference in how it affected me. It happened, it was terrible, saying "I don't think it was THAT bad" doesn't mean it wasn't STILL bad. There's no need to figure out exactly how severe things were. moths posted:E: and for fucks sake if you see something, say something. The hobby won't get better on its own and if Tumblr stories help to raise awareness they're a net positive regardless. Amen amen amen.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 00:48
|
|
|
Being told that your experiences "weren't really that bad" or that your memory is wrong or that you're exaggerating things or that your story just isn't plausible? Yeah, that's the common experience of victims throughout time and it's always a lovely thing to do. It's a big reason why victims stay silent. Because few things make trauma worse than making the brave step of exposing your vulnerability and pain to other people, asking them for some kind of support, and having those people you trusted attack your credibility. "poo poo that didn't happen" is basically people refusing to accept any story that doesn't fit their world view unless the story is backed up by courtroom-level unassailable evidence. Or in other words, simple denial of everything that you'd prefer not to believe in, because courtroom-quality proof just isn't a reasonable demand to make outside of a courtroom. Especially when it comes to sexual harassment and assault, because short of a rape kit, there's usually no proof. At best there might be witnesses, but a common theme of sexual assault and harassment is that the perpetrators tend to avoid witnesses. So basically what it boils down to is that you can discount and diminish and dismiss almost all reports of sexual harassment and assault, solely on the basis that you'd rather not believe it happened. Seriously hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 01:17
|
|
|
Brainiac Five posted:You're weird. Inventing conspiracy theories about literary technique as applied to the plausibility of someone's personal account. The truth is out there about this blog, Scully. The tumblr post actually got me thinking about people I've known with extremely distorted perceptions of tragic events. Like, a UFO didn't actually murder your son, there is no cabal of gas-truck drivers planning to assassinate you, cigarette smokers can't read your mind. But their pain was real and they suffered from it, regardless of whether or not it happened in a world the rest of us occupy. There's no real tactful way to question an outrageous experience, but it feels like I'm actually hurting them long-term by pretending to go along with it. I usually just drift away from those people and wonder about them years later.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 01:18
|
|
|
Yes, believing a UFO attacked you is exactly the same level of credibility as reporting that you were drugged and raped at a convention.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 01:19
|
|
|
moths posted:The tumblr post actually got me thinking about people I've known with extremely distorted perceptions of tragic events. Like, a UFO didn't actually murder your son, there is no cabal of gas-truck drivers planning to assassinate you, cigarette smokers can't read your mind. Dude, I personally know someone who was raped after passing out in a bar, so you can gently caress right off with this poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 01:25
|
|
|
Yeah no rape ever happened to anyone, that's exactly what I'm saying. Seriously if that's what you got out of my post the rest of the thread is making a lot more sense to me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 01:28
|
|
|
moths posted:The tumblr post actually got me thinking about people I've known with extremely distorted perceptions of tragic events. Like, a UFO didn't actually murder your son, there is no cabal of gas-truck drivers planning to assassinate you, cigarette smokers can't read your mind. Really, you're comparing rape victims to UFO abductees? 
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 01:30
|
|
|
NTRabbit posted:I think the problem is more that her blog appears to indicate that she has been victim blamed by every cop she's ever met, which seems unlikely for someone living in the west from the mid 90s onwards. I wish I hadn't taken Asking For It: The Alarming Rise of Rape Culture and What We Can Do About It, by Kate Harding, to the library, because I could get the actual statistics out of it if I hadn't. There's a section in the book that goes over a) false myths people believe about rape victims ('asking for it', 'actually wanted it', etc.) and b) the statistics on how many cops believe 1 or more of them, which are alarmingly high. So no, it's not all that unlikely that she didn't find law enforcement personnel terribly trusting. (Written recently enough to have an extensive section on gorpergrumpf and Cosby, among other things, so the surveys are pretty up-to-date.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 01:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 9, 2024 19:47 |
|
|
Yeah, there's no reason to go THAT far in exaggeration. In my case it's more "that guy tormented me every day" when it may have been once a week. The point I was trying to make is that, as counter-intuitive as it seems, even if you believe her story is exaggerated that doesn't mean it's not true; targeting the exaggeration to dismiss the claims can be almost as counterproductive as attacking the word choice.
|
|
#
?
Apr 4, 2016 01:32
|
|