PYF Historical Fun Fact: (USER LOSETH POSTYNG PRIVILYGES FOR FOUR AND TWENTY HOURS)

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BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

Love is actually good.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 07:07

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# ? May 14, 2024 08:36

Aesop Poprock: Oct 21, 2008; Grimey Drawer

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

The play ends with them dying because they're dumbasses, imo.

It's because they're teenagers, but I guess pretty much the same thing

# ? Apr 1, 2016 07:13

Johnny Aztec: Jan 30, 2005; by Hand Knit

And not like 16-17 teenagers, but 13-14 teenagers.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 07:14

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

The play ends with them dying because their families hate each other, and they have to consummate their passions through suicide. This is pretty simple. Vendettas were common between Italian families.

Do you think the contemporaries wouldn't have considered suicide for romance to be selfish in an obstinate teenager way?

# ? Apr 1, 2016 07:27

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Besides, the whole drat play is choke full of comparisons of death to love and vice versa.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 07:30

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

steinrokkan posted:

Do you think the contemporaries wouldn't have considered suicide for romance to be selfish in an obstinate teenager way?

Doubtful, because there is nothing in the play itself to support that reading. Romeo and Juliet's love is something that allows them to transcend the blood feud that surrounds them. Their love and desperation is never condemned.

The whole "they're just dumb selfish teenagers" narrative is a pop factoid that requires mentally editing the play. You need to ignore passages like this, where Romeo wants to leave behind himself:

quote:

JULIET
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

ROMEO
I take thee at thy word:
Call me but love, and I'll be new baptized;
Henceforth I never will be Romeo.

Isn't this the opposite of selfishness?

Here the play offers culprits for the deaths of Romeo and Juliet:

quote:

PRINCE
Where be these enemies? Capulet! Montague!
See, what a scourge is laid upon your hate,
That heaven finds means to kill your joys with love.
And I for winking at your discords too
Have lost a brace of kinsmen: all are punish'd.

Romeo and Juliet died because of the selfishness of their families and the inaction of better men. Contemporaries would've gotten this, because they're not deaf.

BravestOfTheLamps has a new favorite as of 07:57 on Apr 1, 2016

# ? Apr 1, 2016 07:47

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

Isn't this the opposite of selfishness?

It would be extremely selfish in a culture that valued dynastic interests over personal pleasure, and that also firmly believed in being beholden to the legacy of your ancestors. Especially seeing that they act basically on a whim. I think this is why death and love are equated in RaJ, their naive, egotistical fling makes them dead for the world, cuts them away from the fabric of society. And to read that as transcendence is, Imo, a modern bias.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 07:57

Tiberius Thyben: Feb 7, 2013; Gone Phishing

steinrokkan posted:

It would be extremely selfish in a culture that valued dynastic interests over personal pleasure, and that also firmly believed in being beholden to the legacy of your ancestors. Especially seeing that they act basically on a whim. I think this is why death and love are equated in RaJ, their naive, egotistical fling makes them dead for the world, cuts them away from the fabric of society. And to read that as transcendence is, Imo, a modern bias.

There's also the bit where Romeo is literally in love with another random Capulet when the play starts.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 08:16

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

steinrokkan posted:

It would be extremely selfish in a culture that valued dynastic interests over personal pleasure, and that also firmly believe in being beholden to the legacy of your ancestors. Especially seeing that they act basically on a whim. I think this is why death and love are equated in RaJ, their naive, egotistical fling makes them dead for the world, cuts them away from the fabric of society. And to read that was transcendence is, Imo, a modern his.

Again, where is this in Romeo and Juliet?

Let's see what the play itself has to say about "dynastic interests":

Romeo and Juliet posted:

PRINCE
Rebellious subjects, enemies to peace,
Profaners of this neighbour-stained steel,--
Will they not hear? What, ho! you men, you beasts,
That quench the fire of your pernicious rage
With purple fountains issuing from your veins,
On pain of torture, from those bloody hands
Throw your mistemper'd weapons to the ground,
And hear the sentence of your moved prince.
Three civil brawls, bred of an airy word,
By thee, old Capulet, and Montague,
Have thrice disturb'd the quiet of our streets,
And made Verona's ancient citizens
Cast by their grave beseeming ornaments,
To wield old partisans, in hands as old,
Canker'd with peace, to part your canker'd hate:
If ever you disturb our streets again,
Your lives shall pay the forfeit of the peace.
For this time, all the rest depart away:
You Capulet; shall go along with me:
And, Montague, come you this afternoon,
To know our further pleasure in this case,
To old Free-town, our common judgment-place.
Once more, on pain of death, all men depart.

You can also look at a previous English-language adaptation of the story:

Romeus and Juliet posted:

There were two ancient stocks, which Fortune high did place
Above the rest, indued with wealth, and nobler of their race,
Loved of the common sort, loved of the prince alike,
And like unhappy were they both, when Fortune list to strike;
Whose praise, with equal blast, Fame in her trumpet blew;
The one was clep�d Capulet, and th'other Montague.
A wonted use it is, that men of likely sort,
(I wot not by what fury forced) envy each other's port.
So these, whose egall state bred envy pale of hue,
And then, of grudging envy's root, black hate and rancour grew
As, of a little spark, oft riseth mighty fire,
So of a kindled spark of grudge, in flames flash out their ire:
And then their deadly food, first hatched of trifling strife,
Did bathe in blood of smarting wounds; it reav�d breath and life,
No legend lie I tell, scarce yet their eyes be dry,
That did behold the grisly sight, with wet and weeping eye
But when the prudent prince, who there the sceptre held,
So great a new disorder in his commonweal beheld;
By gentle mean he sought, their choler to assuage;
And by persuasion to appease, their blameful furious rage.
But both his words and time, the prince hath spent in vain:
So rooted was the inward hate, he lost his busy pain.
When friendly sage advice, ne gentle words avail,
By thund'ring threats, and princely power their courage 'gan he quail
In hope that when he had the wasting flame supprest,
In time he should quite quench the sparks that burned within their breast.

Their families are selfish and violent, and this is recognized as a bad thing.

Contemporaries would have recognized the idea of factional strife and family feuds. This was of course not foreign to Elizabethans, but the vicious family feud would have been somewhat exotic to them. The lovers' youth would have also been curious for them, since they would have married much later.

The spontaneity of Romeo's and Juliet's love is contrasted against the designs of Juliet's parents:

quote:

BENVOLIO
At this same ancient feast of Capulet's
Sups the fair Rosaline whom thou so lovest,
With all the admired beauties of Verona:
Go thither; and, with unattainted eye,
Compare her face with some that I shall show,
And I will make thee think thy swan a crow.

ROMEO
When the devout religion of mine eye
Maintains such falsehood, then turn tears to fires;
And these, who often drown'd could never die,
Transparent heretics, be burnt for liars!
One fairer than my love! the all-seeing sun
Ne'er saw her match since first the world begun.

quote:

CAPULET
But saying o'er what I have said before:
My child is yet a stranger in the world;
She hath not seen the change of fourteen years,
Let two more summers wither in their pride,
Ere we may think her ripe to be a bride.

PARIS
Younger than she are happy mothers made.

CAPULET
And too soon marr'd are those so early made.
The earth hath swallow'd all my hopes but she,
She is the hopeful lady of my earth:
But woo her, gentle Paris, get her heart,
My will to her consent is but a part;
An she agree, within her scope of choice
Lies my consent and fair according voice.

quote:

LADY CAPULET
What say you? can you love the gentleman?
This night you shall behold him at our feast;
Read o'er the volume of young Paris' face,
And find delight writ there with beauty's pen;
Examine every married lineament,
And see how one another lends content
And what obscured in this fair volume lies
Find written in the margent of his eyes.
This precious book of love, this unbound lover,
To beautify him, only lacks a cover:
The fish lives in the sea, and 'tis much pride
For fair without the fair within to hide:
That book in many's eyes doth share the glory,
That in gold clasps locks in the golden story;
So shall you share all that he doth possess,
By having him, making yourself no less.

Nurse
No less! nay, bigger; women grow by men.

LADY CAPULET
Speak briefly, can you like of Paris' love?

JULIET
I'll look to like, if looking liking move:
But no more deep will I endart mine eye
Than your consent gives strength to make it fly.

quote:

CAPULET
How! will she none? doth she not give us thanks?
Is she not proud? doth she not count her blest,
Unworthy as she is, that we have wrought
So worthy a gentleman to be her bridegroom?

JULIET
Not proud, you have; but thankful, that you have:
Proud can I never be of what I hate;
But thankful even for hate, that is meant love.

CAPULET
How now, how now, chop-logic! What is this?
'Proud,' and 'I thank you,' and 'I thank you not;'
And yet 'not proud,' mistress minion, you,
Thank me no thankings, nor, proud me no prouds,
But fettle your fine joints 'gainst Thursday next,
To go with Paris to Saint Peter's Church,
Or I will drag thee on a hurdle thither.
Out, you green-sickness carrion! out, you baggage!
You tallow-face!

Of course contemporaries would have understood the weight of family interests and status - which is exactly why they found these stories appealing! You can even go back to Pyramus and Thisbe, from Metamorphoses, which was a standard text for Elizabethans:

quote:

The fatal cause was now at last explor'd,
Her veil she knew, and saw his sheathless sword:
From thy own hand thy ruin thou hast found,
She said, but love first taught that hand to wound,
Ev'n I for thee as bold a hand can show,
And love, which shall as true direct the blow.
I will against the woman's weakness strive,
And never thee, lamented youth, survive.
The world may say, I caus'd, alas! thy death,
But saw thee breathless, and resign'd my breath.
Fate, tho' it conquers, shall no triumph gain,
Fate, that divides us, still divides in vain.

Now, both our cruel parents, hear my pray'r;
My pray'r to offer for us both I dare;
Oh! see our ashes in one urn confin'd,
Whom love at first, and fate at last has join'd.
The bliss, you envy'd, is not our request;
Lovers, when dead, may sure together rest.
Thou, tree, where now one lifeless lump is laid,
Ere-long o'er two shalt cast a friendly shade.
Still let our loves from thee be understood,
Still witness in thy purple fruit our blood.

All-devouring, desperate love is something that people have found admirable throughout the ages.

Tiberius Thyben posted:

There's also the bit where Romeo is literally in love with another random Capulet when the play starts.

Again, there is nothing to say that they're perfect lovers. On the other hand, that part specifically shows Romeo's transition from fanciful fretting to consuming love.

BravestOfTheLamps has a new favorite as of 08:36 on Apr 1, 2016

# ? Apr 1, 2016 08:31

ArtIsResistance: May 19, 2007; QUEEN OF FRANCE, SAVIOR OF LOWTAX

PYF 9th grade english lecture

# ? Apr 1, 2016 08:40

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

Maybe both sides are selfish in their own way, one being blinded by their feud, the other by their love. Ultimately brother Lsurence attempts to unite the contradictory egos of the families and the lovers through the traditional instrument of marriage, but it fails, exposing the foolishness of both the warring families, and the lovers acting recklessly out of an erotic impulse.

steinrokkan has a new favorite as of 08:50 on Apr 1, 2016

# ? Apr 1, 2016 08:43

christmas boots: Oct 15, 2012; To these sing-alongs 🎤of siren 🧜🏻‍♀️songs
To oohs😮 to ahhs😱 to 👏big👏applause👏
With all of my 😡anger I scream🤬 and shout📢
🇺🇸America🦅, I love you 🥰but you're freaking 💦me 😳out; Biscuit Hider

I like to imagine that it's the same Friar from Much Ado and that he's either emboldened by the success of his plan in that one and thinks faking her death will work again.

OR

Much Ado comes after, and he's already had to move to a different city and change his name but old habits die hard�

# ? Apr 1, 2016 08:47

BravestOfTheLamps: Oct 12, 2012; by FactsAreUseless; Lipstick Apathy

steinrokkan posted:

Maybe both sides are selfish in their own way, one being blinded by their feud, the other by their life. Ultimately brother Lsurence attempts to unite the contradictory egos of the families and the lovers through the traditional instrument of marriage, but it fails, exposing the foolishness of both the warring families, and the lovers acting recklessly out of an erotic impulse.

Obviously you can condemn them for acting rashly (it's just common sense), but the play doesn't do so explicitly. Again, it's best to look at the actual text first. Laurence considers himself at fault for helping them elope, not because it was improper, but because it led to their deaths:

Romeo and Juliet posted:

FRIAR LAURENCE
But then a noise did scare me from the tomb;
And she, too desperate, would not go with me,
But, as it seems, did violence on herself.
All this I know; and to the marriage
Her nurse is privy: and, if aught in this
Miscarried by my fault, let my old life
Be sacrificed, some hour before his time,
Unto the rigour of severest law.

e: And Laurence doesn't try to "unite the contradictory egos," his plan is to fake Juliet's death so that she and Romeo can lead new lives in Mantua.

BravestOfTheLamps has a new favorite as of 09:34 on Apr 1, 2016

# ? Apr 1, 2016 08:52

SeanBeansShako: Nov 20, 2009; Now the Drums beat up again,
For all true Soldier Gentlemen.

During his youth, Napoleon even got in the sappy romance novel game and published his own sort of middling doomed romance novel loosely baised on his his life up that point and his soldier fantasies.

# ? Apr 1, 2016 14:22

Thwomp: Apr 10, 2003; BA-DUHHH; Grimey Drawer

Some more thoughts about Love and Romeo and Juliet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J4hoAatGRQ

# ? Apr 1, 2016 15:30

Phy: Jun 27, 2008; Fun Shoe

We used to have a "poo poo I just figured out" thread; I didn't see it in the first three pages so I'm assuming it's been mercifully killed.

I just figured out that Roger Bacon the very clever monk, Francis Bacon the very clever proto-scientist, and Francis Drake the pirate/explorer were all different people living at different times. Shame on me.

# ? Apr 4, 2016 06:48

Philippe: Aug 9, 2013; (she/her)

There's also a 20th century painter called Francis Bacon, who is distinct from the gentlemen you mentioned.

# ? Apr 4, 2016 08:29

Phyzzle: Jan 26, 2008

And yet another guy, the Earl of Bacon Lettuce & Tomato, was the inventor of the sandwich.

# ? Apr 4, 2016 14:16

Ichabod Sexbeast: Dec 5, 2011; Giving 'em the old razzle-dazzle

I like the idea of them also being the same guy, that dude would be p. awesome

# ? Apr 4, 2016 14:22

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

I think at least two of those people are Kevin Bacon. How else does he manage to star in more movies than have ever been made?

# ? Apr 4, 2016 14:38

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

Phy posted:

We used to have a "poo poo I just figured out" thread; I didn't see it in the first three pages so I'm assuming it's been mercifully killed.

I just figured out that Roger Bacon the very clever monk, Francis Bacon the very clever proto-scientist, and Francis Drake the pirate/explorer were all different people living at different times. Shame on me.

Francis Drake was also one of the last persons to visit the Roanoke colony before the colonists disappeared.

# ? Apr 4, 2016 15:08

gleebster: Dec 16, 2006; Only a howler; Pillbug

Phy posted:

We used to have a "poo poo I just figured out" thread; I didn't see it in the first three pages so I'm assuming it's been mercifully killed.

I just figured out that Roger Bacon the very clever monk, Francis Bacon the very clever proto-scientist, and Francis Drake the pirate/explorer were all different people living at different times. Shame on me.

Alhazred posted:

Francis Drake was also one of the last persons to visit the Roanoke colony before the colonists disappeared.

All the same guy. Who was also a time-travelling mass-killer.

# ? Apr 4, 2016 16:35

The North Tower: Aug 20, 2007; You should throw it in the ocean.

gleebster posted:

All the same guy. Who was also a time-travelling mass-killer.

As he leaves the colony he whispers a final edict: "CROATOAN".

# ? Apr 4, 2016 17:47

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Ayn Rand, Rand Paul, and Paul Krugman are three different people. :aaaaa:

# ? Apr 4, 2016 19:20

Jump King: Aug 10, 2011

Platystemon posted:

Ayn Rand, Rand Paul, and Paul Krugman are three different people.

Ron Paul, Paul Ryan and Andrew Ryan are also all different people and none of them are any of the above mentioned people either.

_{I genuinely get these people mixed up all the time}

# ? Apr 4, 2016 19:26

the future is WOW: Sep 9, 2005; I QUIT!

MMM Whatchya Say posted:

Ron Paul, Paul Ryan and Andrew Ryan are also all different people and none of them are any of the above mentioned people either.

_{I genuinely get these people mixed up all the time}

I can kind of understand this one, since there have been plenty of times I wanted to beat Ron Paul and Paul Ryan to death with a golf club.

# ? Apr 4, 2016 20:31

Jo Joestar: Oct 24, 2013

Milton Friedman and John Maynard Keynes were both internationally renowned 20th-century economists, but neither of them has any connection to the naming of the city of Milton Keynes.

# ? Apr 4, 2016 20:31

SneezeOfTheDecade: Feb 6, 2011; gettin' covid all
over your posts

Phy posted:

We used to have a "poo poo I just figured out" thread; I didn't see it in the first three pages so I'm assuming it's been mercifully killed.

No, its undead cadaver lurches ever onward in search of faaaaaaaake etymoooooologieeeees...

# ? Apr 4, 2016 21:05

duckmaster: Sep 13, 2004; Mr and Mrs Duck go and stay in a nice hotel.

One night they call room service for some condoms as things are heating up.

The guy arrives and says "do you want me to put it on your bill"

Mr Duck says "what kind of pervert do you think I am?!

QUACK QUACK

Jo Joestar posted:

Milton Friedman and John Maynard Keynes were both internationally renowned 20th-century economists, but neither of them has any connection to the naming of the city of Milton Keynes.

Actually the city takes its name from the village of Milton Keynes a few miles away. The area was owned by the de Cahaines family who later Anglicised their name to Keynes (the village was then known as Middleton Keynes, Middleton being an old word for "town").

It isn't known if John Maynard Keynes was a descendant of this family but in a weird and roundabout way he does have a connection to the citys name!

# ? Apr 4, 2016 21:09

Khazar-khum: Oct 22, 2008; Cat Army
2nd Battalion

Who's the greatest racehorse of all time? Secretariat? Man o' War? The Australian superhorse Phar Lap?

Nope.

It's Eclipse.

Eclipse was an undefeated 18th century superstar, so thoroughly dominating the track that he was forced into retirement when no one would run against him. He frequently won by margins of 10-20 furlongs. A furlong, for those who are not into racing, is 1/8 mile/201.1m. These were tough, grueling races set at 3 miles and more. The cry from the track as he galloped home was usually "Eclipse first, the rest--nowhere!"

Where he really made an impact was in breeding. It's estimated that 95% of all modern thoroughbreds are descended from him. He also passed on something else: the so-called 'X Factor'. This shows up in outstanding, fast horses who completely dominate their racing contemporaries. The surest sign of this can only be found after death. Horses who have the X Factor have enormous hearts, usually 40% or more larger than normal. Eclipse had this, as did Man o'war, Secretariat, and yes, Phar Lap. Phar Lap's great heart can be seen at the National Museum of Australia.

Eclipse's skeleton is at the Royal Veterinary College.

One other odd fact: All of these great horses were bright red chestnuts, a color that people deliberately bred away from because they were considered too 'flighty' to make good mounts.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 01:34

cptn_dr: Sep 7, 2011; Seven for beauty that blossoms and dies

Khazar-khum posted:

Phar Lap's great heart can be seen at the National Museum of Australia.

Phar Lap's skeleton can be seen in Te Papa Tongarewa, the Museum of New Zealand (the country in which he was born). It's quite something.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 01:42

Stupid_Sexy_Flander: Mar 14, 2007; Is a man not entitled to the haw of his maw?; Grimey Drawer

The Mentalizer posted:

I can kind of understand this one, since there have been plenty of times I wanted to beat Ron Paul and Paul Ryan to death with a golf club.

Add Rand Paul to the mix and would you kindly pass me a 9 iron?

# ? Apr 5, 2016 03:38

El Estrago Bonito: Dec 17, 2010; Scout Finch Bitch

Phyzzle posted:

And yet another guy, the Earl of Bacon Lettuce & Tomato, was the inventor of the sandwich.

Fun Facts: The title of Earl of Sandwich didn't come about for several decades after Francis Bacon's death.

Also, he was a real person, who while remembered now as the namesake of the sandwich was actually a really important and prominent figure in his time for other reasons (the Sandwich Islands are named after him for instance): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Montagu,_4th_Earl_of_Sandwich

# ? Apr 5, 2016 05:41

Tiberius Thyben: Feb 7, 2013; Gone Phishing

Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:

Add Rand Paul to the mix and would you kindly pass me a 9 iron?

Quite frankly, all six of them, Ron Paul, Paul Ryan, Andrew Ryan, Ayn Rand, Rand Paul, and Paul Krugman, could use a 9 iron.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 06:00

Waci: May 30, 2011; A boy and his dog.

What does everyone have against RuPaul?

# ? Apr 5, 2016 07:28

Helios Grime: Jan 27, 2012; Where we are going we won't need shirts; Pillbug

Khazar-khum posted:

Who's the greatest racehorse of all time? Secretariat? Man o' War? The Australian superhorse Phar Lap?

Nope.

It's Eclipse.

Eclipse was an undefeated 18th century superstar, so thoroughly dominating the track that he was forced into retirement when no one would run against him. He frequently won by margins of 10-20 furlongs. A furlong, for those who are not into racing, is 1/8 mile/201.1m. These were tough, grueling races set at 3 miles and more. The cry from the track as he galloped home was usually "Eclipse first, the rest--nowhere!"

Where he really made an impact was in breeding. It's estimated that 95% of all modern thoroughbreds are descended from him. He also passed on something else: the so-called 'X Factor'. This shows up in outstanding, fast horses who completely dominate their racing contemporaries. The surest sign of this can only be found after death. Horses who have the X Factor have enormous hearts, usually 40% or more larger than normal. Eclipse had this, as did Man o'war, Secretariat, and yes, Phar Lap. Phar Lap's great heart can be seen at the National Museum of Australia.

Eclipse's skeleton is at the Royal Veterinary College.

One other odd fact: All of these great horses were bright red chestnuts, a color that people deliberately bred away from because they were considered too 'flighty' to make good mounts.

A race horse bred from Eclipse was Potoooooooo or Pot-8-Os, because a stable lad didn't understand the correct name Potatoes when ordered to write it on a feed bin.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 07:59

Necrothatcher: Mar 26, 2005

Helios Grime posted:

A race horse bred from Eclipse was Potoooooooo or Pot-8-Os, because a stable lad didn't understand the correct name Potatoes when ordered to write it on a feed bin.

To be fair to the stable lad, Potatoes is an loving awful name for a racehorse.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 09:25

Chichevache: Feb 17, 2010; One of the funniest posters in GIP.

Just not intentionally.

Mr. Flunchy posted:

To be fair to the stable lad, Potatoes is an loving awful name for a racehorse.

Yeah, horse is much better with onions.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 09:42

SneezeOfTheDecade: Feb 6, 2011; gettin' covid all
over your posts

Mr. Flunchy posted:

To be fair to the stable lad, Potatoes is an loving awful name for a racehorse.

Yeah, racehorses need names like 24 Carrot Seven, Lettuce Prey, and Raspberry Perfect.

# ? Apr 5, 2016 12:10

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 14, 2024 08:36

DemonDarkhorse: Nov 5, 2011; It's probably not tobacco. You just need to start wiping front-to-back from now on.

Or Hoof Hearted

# ? Apr 5, 2016 12:29

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