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suicidesteve posted:If Ancestral Vision does anything it'll be in a deck with Goblin Dank-Memers, Infant Jace, and probably black or white because RUG isn't allowed to be good in any format. Also probably some number in grindy blue deck sideboards. Isn't Visions and 2 mana jace a nombo?
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Apr 5, 2016 19:47
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mcmagic posted:Isn't Visions and 2 mana jace a nombo? You can still loot later drawn copies from your hand
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Apr 5, 2016 19:50
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Calebd was playing a tezz list with the sword combo AND a couple visions. It seemed good.
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Apr 5, 2016 19:52
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Has anyone build a deck around Archangel Avacyn yet? She's undeniably powerful, but have no idea where she would slot into and I'm having trouble making a standard shell for her.
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Apr 5, 2016 19:54
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Samael posted:Has anyone build a deck around Archangel Avacyn yet? She's undeniably powerful, but have no idea where she would slot into and I'm having trouble making a standard shell for her. I tried her in Bant Company and in BW Control and cut her both times. She might be a card without a home.
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Apr 5, 2016 19:56
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mcmagic posted:Isn't Visions and 2 mana jace a nombo? You discard it so Dark Dwellers can cast it from your graveyard.
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Apr 5, 2016 19:56
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Angry Grimace posted:I think its going to be easier to fight off Thopter-Sword in a hate-driven format like Modern than they might be imagining because various forms of hate on decks like that are pretty common. Doesn't existing hate for Affinity work on it to varying degrees? Ancient Grudge and Shatterstorm on Foundries, Stony Silence turns it off. Kataki can be played around but will slow things down at least.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:00
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Death Bot posted:Calebd was playing a tezz list with the sword combo AND a couple visions. It seemed good. Is there a 75 anywhere? What did it play against?
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Apr 5, 2016 20:01
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rinski posted:You discard it so Dark Dwellers can cast it from your graveyard. TheKingofSprings posted:You can still loot later drawn copies from your hand Both of these things.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:01
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You could also slap AV onto an isochron scepter, if you have some brew that could utilize that.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:02
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I skimmed through the Uncharted Realms story about Avacyn and her big spooky madness, and I gotta say I was pleasantly surprised by the early goings. I really dig the characterization of Avacyn as kind and helpful but really fundamentally awkward and alien, like she's John Cena granting ten thousand Make a Wishes to kids with cancer before retreating to her empty palace of silence to stare blankly at a wall. There's a lot of endearing little touches when she's saving the kid in the woods, figuring out how soft a voice to use, figuring out when it'd be appropriate to smile even though the point of smiling doesn't make much sense to her. You get an impression of someone trying to make the most out of the limited parameters she was "programmed" with. Which, of course, makes it disappointing when her shift to villainy is pretty rote, instantaneous, and context-free. Like, she gets hit by some spooky magic that messes with her head and now she thinks humanity is evil and we gotta kill all humans to achieve purity. It's so weird and anticlimactic because the seeds are there for an interesting struggle - like if you're determined to have the super-generic "everyone is guilty" villain be her endpoint, you can at least work with the fact that she's this awkward person trying really hard to balance an imperative to protect humanity with the fact that she's really bad at understanding them. Give me a struggle, give me a process, give me an arc where she's trying to understand if maybe the sinful state of humanity is somehow her fault, or one where she slowly comes to realize that she exists to defend systems that don't deserve defending, or anything richer than "Someone bad (Nahiri) made her crazy and now she kills everyone and does weird smiles".
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Apr 5, 2016 20:02
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Yawgmoth posted:You could also slap AV onto an isochron scepter, if you have some brew that could utilize that. No, you can't. Scepter is instants only.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:03
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mcmagic posted:I tried her in Bant Company and in BW Control and cut her both times. She might be a card without a home. What's wrong with her in BW control? She seems like a decent card in that shell.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:05
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BizarroAzrael posted:Doesn't existing hate for Affinity work on it to varying degrees? Ancient Grudge and Shatterstorm on Foundries, Stony Silence turns it off. Kataki can be played around but will slow things down at least. It works but Thopter is much less all-in than Affinity, and if you mulligan aggressively for one you might just get blown out by Tezz or Lili.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:06
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TheKingofSprings posted:It works but Thopter is much less all-in than Affinity, and if you mulligan aggressively for one you might just get blown out by Tezz or Lili. Couldn't you play cards like leyline of the void or illness in the ranks? It also randomly hoses Grishoalbrand/Living end and any token deck respectively. I don't think you need to specifically need a hate card in the first few turns as hand disruption and such helps with that. That being said, I did not play extended when all this poo poo was legal.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:08
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Samael posted:What's wrong with her in BW control? She seems like a decent card in that shell. she doesn't do as much as TKS or reality smasher or a planeswalker that you can put in the slot of big finisher.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:09
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Samael posted:What's wrong with her in BW control? She seems like a decent card in that shell. You can't flip her reliably enough and she just dies to Grasp of Darkness alot of the time. I replaced her with Linvala which has been much better.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:10
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mcmagic posted:You can't flip her reliably enough and she just dies to Grasp of Darkness alot of the time. I replaced her with Linvala which has been much better. I'll test her and see if you are right, but I will take your word for it. How about the top end of a GW megamorph deck? Den Protector, Deathmist Raptor, etc with Dromoka and Avacyn at the top of the curve?
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Apr 5, 2016 20:12
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mcmagic posted:You can't flip her reliably enough and she just dies to Grasp of Darkness alot of the time. I replaced her with Linvala which has been much better. I had totally forgotten that Linvala was a card. Seems like a lot of value in her for the coming standard. I could see both triggers happening against a lot of decks.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:18
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Samael posted:I'll test her and see if you are right, but I will take your word for it. How about the top end of a GW megamorph deck? Den Protector, Deathmist Raptor, etc with Dromoka and Avacyn at the top of the curve? Better because she helps you win combat but when she flips she wipes your board too and if they can remove her you can get blown out.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:18
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Chamale posted:No, you can't. Scepter is instants only.  v
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Apr 5, 2016 20:18
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Little Jace's -3 ability allows you to pay alternate casting costs, doesn't it? It's the main difference between it and Snapcaster. Not that you'd want to, but you should be able to suspend AV from the graveyard if you use Jace's ability to target it. You just can't cast it for free immediately. In Standard news, I played against two decks in a row last Friday that were Erebos's Titan, Kalitas, Drana, Ob Nixilis, and then just all removal. It was a brutal going and I'm sure if I wasn't playing gimmick Oops All Rhinos and constantly copying their guys and my Rhinos, I would've folded to it hard. And it seems to be good to go post-rotation, too. Has anyone put anything like this together? Or is it just the BW control shell minus all the sweet white cards?
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Apr 5, 2016 20:29
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keeblerdrow posted:Little Jace's -3 ability allows you to pay alternate casting costs, doesn't it? It's the main difference between it and Snapcaster. Not that you'd want to, but you should be able to suspend AV from the graveyard if you use Jace's ability to target it. You just can't cast it for free immediately. You can only suspend from your hand.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:31
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keeblerdrow posted:Little Jace's -3 ability allows you to pay alternate casting costs, doesn't it? It's the main difference between it and Snapcaster. Not that you'd want to, but you should be able to suspend AV from the graveyard if you use Jace's ability to target it. You just can't cast it for free immediately. Jace lets you cast (which is why you can pay alternate casting costs), but suspend is in lieu of casting.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:36
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BizarroAzrael posted:Doesn't existing hate for Affinity work on it to varying degrees? Ancient Grudge and Shatterstorm on Foundries, Stony Silence turns it off. Kataki can be played around but will slow things down at least. Yep, and commonly played Graveyard hates works well too (including Scavenging Ooze), particularly if its a Snapcaster deck. As for Visions, the problem is that the format is just too fast for blue-based control decks and the only time Ancestral Vision is a card you want is in your initial hand. Even against Jund, Ancestral Vision is a miserable topdeck. You can play a bunch of Ancestral Visions in Legacy Delver decks because sometimes you get good value out of the Visions still sitting in your deck by Shardless Agenting into it, but you're never going to do that in Modern. And no, you can't suspend Ancestral Vision with Telepath Unbound and even if you could, this vastly overrates how good it is to suspend Ancestral Visions and get value out of it 5 turns later. Jund/k IS the control deck of the format, people just don't like calling it that. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 20:41
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Jenny Angel posted:I skimmed through the Uncharted Realms story about Avacyn and her big spooky madness, and I gotta say I was pleasantly surprised by the early goings. I really dig the characterization of Avacyn as kind and helpful but really fundamentally awkward and alien, like she's John Cena granting ten thousand Make a Wishes to kids with cancer before retreating to her empty palace of silence to stare blankly at a wall. There's a lot of endearing little touches when she's saving the kid in the woods, figuring out how soft a voice to use, figuring out when it'd be appropriate to smile even though the point of smiling doesn't make much sense to her. You get an impression of someone trying to make the most out of the limited parameters she was "programmed" with. I thought they handled it decently. Like, nothing really changes except her perception. She saves a kid brings him back to his mom, but she notices the little details like the kid is grubby and snotnosed and the mom is understandably mad at the kid for going off in the woods and smacks him. These things are all pretty normal and things I'm sure Avacyn has seen, the only difference is how she now takes them in. She doesn't kill the mother and child right away, the idea has to fester in her head for a little while but yeah, she does eventually go nuts. I agree it would have been more interesting if they had shown a bit more inner struggle but Avacyn going nuts is the starting point of the story. I think her inner conflict would add some unnecessary tension of "will she go crazy/won't she" to the beginning of a much longer arc and it would have made her decision to kill everyone feel like it came about naturally where what we really need to establish early is that something unnatural and sinister is happening to the inhabitants of Innistrad, even and especially Avacyn. This is not to say that the actual writing in the stories is any good, but I think the Cliffs Notes version of the story is a good mystery. Lets Pickle fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 20:43
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Angry Grimace posted:Yep, and commonly played Graveyard hates works well too (including Scavenging Ooze), particularly if its a Snapcaster deck. Haven't some "traditional" UW control lists started popping up in Modern, or was mostly just a response to Eldrazi?
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Apr 5, 2016 20:46
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Boom. There it is. Thanks for the correction.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:52
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C-Euro posted:Haven't some "traditional" UW control lists started popping up in Modern, or was mostly just a response to Eldrazi? I haven't really been playing during the Eldrazi Winter, but I suspect that's true. Blue-based control is a lot less effective when you're trying to play against a field of decks that fire from way different angles with burn/affinity/jund/scapeshift/etc. Hell, if there's a deck that wants Ancestral Visions as a value suspend card, I imagine its just Scapeshift.
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Apr 5, 2016 20:57
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Delver isn't Shardless.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:19
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Lets Pickle posted:I thought they handled it decently. Like, nothing really changes except her perception. She saves a kid brings him back to his mom, but she notices the little details like the kid is grubby and snotnosed and the mom is understandably mad at the kid for going off in the woods and smacks him. These things are all pretty normal and things I'm sure Avacyn has seen, the only difference is how she now takes them in. She doesn't kill the mother and child right away, the idea has to fester in her head for a little while but yeah, she does eventually go nuts. I agree it would have been more interesting if they had shown a bit more inner struggle but Avacyn going nuts is the starting point of the story. I think her inner conflict would add some unnecessary tension of "will she go crazy/won't she" to the beginning of a much longer arc and it would have made her decision to kill everyone feel like it came about naturally where what we really need to establish early is that something unnatural and sinister is happening to the inhabitants of Innistrad, even and especially Avacyn. Yeah this is all super fair. I think what was tripping me up is that I was pleasantly surprised enough by the pre-madness characterization to think "Huh, this seems like an interesting character, there's definitely some room for development here!" In doing so, I was thinking of Avacyn as the tragic villain and wondering how that fall from grace would play out, when it's more accurate to think of her as a vector for Nahiri's tragic villainy in the form of her broader campaign of spite and revenge against Sorin.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:20
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UW control is pretty much in response to Eldrazi. If you aren't effectively dead by T4 you can get a lot of value off a wrath with how many cards they can dump by then.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:31
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Unrelated, but I am convincing myself to make a "Lets actually use Hedron Alignments" kinda deck because gently caress you I want to run the stupid gimmick. I might just have generic big dudes and big pumps if that gets hosed. Also I might have to introduce Eldrazi/Colorless to my decks. Pulled fuckin' Endbringer on a pack on a whim.
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Apr 5, 2016 21:38
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mcmagic posted:I tried her in Bant Company and in BW Control and cut her both times. She might be a card without a home. She fits pretty well in a Midrange Shell. Really wide decks don't want her because indestructible doesn't help your little guys get damage through or avoid Languish/Tendrils. Control decks don't want her because she requires one of your creatures to die in order to sweep, and then she becomes a decent finisher. Instead control probably just wants to play a sweeper card and then a finisher card because it still costs 2 cards either way. ThePeavstenator fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 22:02
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ThePeavstenator posted:She fits pretty well in a Midrange Shell. Really wide decks don't want her because indestructible doesn't help your little guys get damage through or avoid Languish/Tendrils. Control decks don't want her because she requires one of your creatures to die in order to sweep, and then she becomes a decent finisher. Instead control probably just wants to play a sweeper card and then a finisher card because it still costs 2 cards either way. There's nothing funnier than Invasive Surgery out of the board because almost every 2-for-1 (meaning not Kozilek's Return) is a Sorcery.
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Apr 5, 2016 22:31
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Angry Grimace posted:There's nothing funnier than Invasive Surgery out of the board because almost every 2-for-1 (meaning not Kozilek's Return) is a Sorcery. Most decks that are vulnerable to sweepers aren't going to be blue, aren't going to want counterspells, and/or aren't going to have delirium on turns 3-5. E: Invasive surgery seems like a card for a control mirror because Dark Petition is probably going to see a decent amount of play in those decks.
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Apr 5, 2016 22:36
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ThePeavstenator posted:Most decks that are vulnerable to sweepers aren't going to be blue, aren't going to want counterspells, and/or aren't going to have delirium on turns 3-5. There's a bunch of UW Humans/Ojutai based decks. You use Always Watching and then curve up to Archangel of Tithes and Ojutai.
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Apr 5, 2016 23:14
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ThePeavstenator posted:
Hm yes I really do want to spend 5 to find a card I can't cast or a 3 drop in a control mirror this isn't likely to get me blown out by any of the good counterspells, let alone the narrow ones 
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Apr 5, 2016 23:21
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Angry Grimace posted:There's a bunch of UW Humans/Ojutai based decks. You use Always Watching and then curve up to Archangel of Tithes and Ojutai. U/W midrange looks like a hot mess at the moment. The lists I saw looked clunky as hell. And is going to have trouble finding a way to have 1 blue open for a counterspell condidering almost half of its lands come into play tapped during the turns where its relevant. Zoness posted:Hm yes I really do want to spend 5 to find a card I can't cast or a 3 drop in a control mirror this isn't likely to get me blown out by any of the good counterspells, let alone the narrow ones In b/w dark petition can often search for any card you like then spend the 3 black on some removal you already had in your hand. Not terrible in the b/w or other control mirrors and its showed up in some sideboards I have seen. IE: spells like ruinous path, tendrils, grasp, ultimate price... etc. I don't think people use it often to find a 3 cost spell to run it into counterspells. Saying that, surgery looks pretty bad. Sickening fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Apr 5, 2016 |
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Apr 5, 2016 23:25
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I have a UW brew made up and it doesn't seem clunky at all tbh. Standard is probably going to get slower that most people think and taking one turn to cast an enchantment that pays for itself once you cast 2 creatures should be fine.
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Apr 5, 2016 23:43
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