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gradenko_2000 posted:Having played a Shaman through Burning Crusade, I could never quite understand why the devs always refused to buff that class despite its obvious weaknesses. Well, I think there's a difference between striving towards balance and failing (which is what the WoW developers did for a whole lot of years) versus making imbalance a core feature of your game. I guess the MMO equivalent would be if the WoW dev team removed all Warrior abilities except autoattack, then proudly proclaimed it was all "working as intended".
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Apr 6, 2016 13:48
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Comrade Koba posted:I guess the MMO equivalent would be if the WoW dev team removed all Warrior abilities except autoattack, then proudly proclaimed it was all "working as intended". Now that you mention it, you could even see the echoes of D&D down to how the Warrior for the longest time couldn't do anything except Heroic Strike until they got their Bloodthirst or Mortal Strike ability at level 30. It took them until Cataclysm (?) to add an active pressable button from level 1. Ditto Paladins with Crusader Strike.
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Apr 6, 2016 13:54
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Vanguard Warden posted:In my experience, situations like that are actually pretty frequent. This is where I'd give you a point of inspiration to help you along on your kool-aid man transitional journey.
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Apr 6, 2016 13:57
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gradenko_2000 posted:Now that you mention it, you could even see the echoes of D&D down to how the Warrior for the longest time couldn't do anything except Heroic Strike until they got their Bloodthirst or Mortal Strike ability at level 30. It took them until Cataclysm (?) to add an active pressable button from level 1. Ditto Paladins with Crusader Strike. Turns out they were right in the 80s about D&D corrupting young people, just not in the way they thought.
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Apr 6, 2016 13:58
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https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dDa_6HypQFDUno2dIkLswdYgJD45ibbPLCZoa_VJLUA/edit?usp=sharing Finished the second part of the pointbuy experiment. Tried to take things a step further. The "points" are now divided into three categories: Spellcasting, Offensive Capabilities, and Utility. Magic, Damage, and Everything Else. Damage is probably overvalued, but that's fine, necromancers are the best at it anyhow. Main takeaways 1. It's really pretty easy to compare the spellcasting ability of the classes to each other. The Wizard is at least six times better at magic than an eldritch knight, and it's hard to argue that the gap could be any lower than that. 2. Wizards get some great utility stuff. Rogues get some awesome utility stuff too, don't get me wrong. Stuff like Reliable Talent and Cunning Action are pretty baller. But the wizard gets utility features that are "Get a better version of other class's features" and "get more magic spellcasting". Them beating the rogue--even after being real generous with the rogues points and conservative with the wizard's--was not expected. 3. Shore up weakpoints and you won't break the game. The rogue could stand to do some more damage. The fighter could stand to get some more utility. The fighter could stand to gain 94 bonus feats by level 20, and as long as they don't increase the damage it does, it'd still just be on par with a wizard. 4. Yeah, spellcasting is the most powerful class feature in 5e, but it's absolutely crystal clear the designers treated it as a "level 0" thing, similar to armor proficiency and skills. That more than anything is why the game is unbalanced. Quadratic_Wizard fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 15:32
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Man the middle section of Hoard of the Dragon Queen is boring. We just spent three and a half 4 hour sessions traveling in 2 separate caravans with a quick breather in Waterdeep to spy on the warehouse only to journey to... Another warehouse. After a short RP session where our Monk almost got one shot by the Orc quartermaster were now on the road traveling to the castle and getting ambushed by packs of giant toads. How the gently caress does the local eco system even support packs of a dozen giant frogs??? Hoping that the last 3 chapters will be a little more exciting. How does Rise of Tiamat compare to Hoard?
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Apr 6, 2016 17:02
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Quadratic_Wizard posted:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dDa_6HypQFDUno2dIkLswdYgJD45ibbPLCZoa_VJLUA/edit?usp=sharing Someone upthread mentioned Shadow of the Demon Lord basically making/encouraging you to MC at several breakpoints, and I think this might work for 5e. I often muse about a "KOTOR mode" 5e campaign or houserule; pick fighter, rogue or barbarian and take that class for 1-2 levels. Then you have to MC out into something else. Fighter basically nets you prof with all weapon and armor, plus Fighting Style; if you have CHA as one of your higher stats, consider going Paladin, or WIS->Ranger, if you love double-dipping on Fighting Style. Otherwise just get into whatever caster fits your stats. Rogue nets you a ton of skill profs, and Expertise; if you want to double-down on skillyness, go Bard. Otherwise, pretty much any caster goes well with Rogue. Barbarian gets Rage and medium armor, and prof with all weapons and shields.  I really don't know what to mix with this class, TBH.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:19
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odinson posted:Goblins =/ Beasts. Did Dobby and Obould not teach us anything? All it says is "creatures CR 1 or less" 
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Apr 6, 2016 17:32
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:All it says is "creatures CR 1 or less" The Wild Shape feature says beasts. Idk what you're reading.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:48
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Apparently there's some kind of uproar about there being a transgender character in the new Baldur's Gate expansion, "Siege of Dragonspear". Ed Greenwood weighed in and sometimes I feel like this hobby isn't that bad. It gets a little weird when he goes off on a tangent about the color yellow though: Ed Greenwood posted:I am saddened by what I hear of the current kerfluffle raging about Siege of Dragonspear and the trans character Amber Scott designed and included in it. Edit: and now I'm seeing Gradenko fight the good fight on Reddit comments. Aside from a few bad apples, I'm honestly surprised how positive most of the comments are. Edit2: does Reddit frown on helldumping people if they're literal Nazis? Because I just looked at some other posts by the main guy you were railing against and he's also quite active in the German-language political reddits (apparently because he's German). And yes, he is quite literally, a Nazi. My translation of one gem: a literal nazi posted:...but we currently find ourselves at war on multiple fronts. There is a foreign army that by hook or by crook is trying to invade EU countries, if necessary with battering rams, violence, and smuggling, in order to then enter the country and ignore its laws. Drone fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 17:53
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Generic Octopus posted:The Wild Shape feature says beasts. Idk what you're reading. w/e, we have a werebear barbarian in our party who's immune to all but psychic damage, I think cheesing the rules to transform into non-bear things is fine. EDIT: Okay, finally found the part in the Monster Manual where they explain what beasts are and lo and behold they also lack any actual beasts in said book. 
GenderSelectScreen fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 18:46
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:w/e, we have a werebear barbarian in our party who's immune to all but psychic damage, I think cheesing the rules to transform into non-bear things is fine. I think beasts are in the back of the players handbook so players have access to them.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:59
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the best part of people using the ironic clap emote is when they're actually wrong
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Apr 6, 2016 19:02
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Drone posted:Apparently there's some kind of uproar about there being a transgender character in the new Baldur's Gate expansion, "Siege of Dragonspear". It's weird how mad people get over this poo poo. I find the writing in SoD to be pretty bad, IMO (although I think BG has never had good writing to begin with), but you've got people having a loving poo poo-fit over this for a week. I groaned when I heard Minsc make that stupid "it's ethics in gaming journalism  " joke because I want everything to do with that poo poo to go to rest (and also because I hate Minsc's stupid loving rear end but have to bring him along because he's fairly useful), but I'm not going to freak out over it. It's a loving game for teenagers and older.Anyways, on more topical stuff, would a good way to balance wizards (or at least a good first step) be forcing them into one school of magic and preventing them from taking spells from other schools? I mean, there'd be tons more loving wizards, but the fireball wizard wouldn't be able to do poo poo like unlock doors, fly around, summon undead, and all that poo poo, but would instead have to stick to a specific role. SunAndSpring fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Apr 6, 2016 |
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Apr 6, 2016 19:37
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SunAndSpring posted:Anyways, on more topical stuff, would a good way to balance wizards (or at least a good first step) be forcing them into one school of magic and preventing them from taking spells from other schools? I mean, there'd be tons more loving wizards, but the fireball wizard wouldn't be able to do poo poo like unlock doors, fly around, summon undead, and all that poo poo, but would instead have to stick to a specific role. Drone posted:Edit2: does Reddit frown on helldumping people if they're literal Nazis? Because I just looked at some other posts by the main guy you were railing against and he's also quite active in the German-language political reddits (apparently because he's German). And yes, he is quite literally, a Nazi. My translation of one gem: quote:Dude gently caress you. You are banned from our online game. I won't host a bigot
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Apr 6, 2016 19:46
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SunAndSpring posted:Anyways, on more topical stuff, would a good way to balance wizards (or at least a good first step) be forcing them into one school of magic and preventing them from taking spells from other schools? I mean, there'd be tons more loving wizards, but the fireball wizard wouldn't be able to do poo poo like unlock doors, fly around, summon undead, and all that poo poo, but would instead have to stick to a specific role. A wizard who can cast one fireball, one wall of fire, and one meteor shower isn't really weaker than a wizard who can cast one fireball, one teleport, and one banshee's wail, and they're both still better than fighters who can't cast anything at all.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:03
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Gerdalti posted:I think beasts are in the back of the players handbook so players have access to them. Ah, I just have a list with CR 1 creatures on it and was borrowing my another player's books so I didn't bother looking in there. I'll take a look next time we play. Although my DM's fine with with it being any creature since we have the werebear issue. A 50S RAYGUN posted:the best part of people using the ironic clap emote is when they're actually wrong Oh  , the guy right above you just said they're in the Player's Handbook, which I don't have.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:08
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Ferrinus posted:A wizard who can cast one fireball, one wall of fire, and one meteor shower isn't really weaker than a wizard who can cast one fireball, one teleport, and one banshee's wail, and they're both still better than fighters who can't cast anything at all. Well, that's why I said it's a first step. Obviously poo poo would have to be toned down so that, while a fireball is still impressive, it isn't a room-clearing affair that leaves the Fighter with nothing to do.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:12
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Oh it's not exactly a leap for the rules for beasts being in the book that describes the rules for summoning and transforming into beasts
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Apr 6, 2016 20:27
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:
Yeah, I mean it's not exactly a leap for the rules for spells used by monsters being in the book that describes the monsters
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Apr 6, 2016 20:36
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In a game that seems to hate keywords or at least prefers "natural language," they could have been clearer. But yeah, beasts are typically found at the end of the Monster Manual and have the "beast" keyword in their description. But note that all Dinosaurs and prehistoric reptiles are also considered beasts. 
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Apr 6, 2016 20:39
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Piell posted:Yeah, I mean it's not exactly a leap for the rules for spells used by monsters being in the book that describes the monsters i think most people playing d&d are presumed to either own or have convenient access to a phb; the spells not being in the monster manual makes sense because the spells are in a core book. i'd be way more pissed if i had to buy a monster's manual just to know the stats of most of the beasts (even though a lot of the cool beasts are in the MM) that the phb says i could turn into. i think you're probably aware of this, though, and just want to be obstinate for some reason.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:50
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SunAndSpring posted:Well, that's why I said it's a first step. Obviously poo poo would have to be toned down so that, while a fireball is still impressive, it isn't a room-clearing affair that leaves the Fighter with nothing to do. I dispute that it's a first step at all. Making sure that each wizard's special effects are only one color doesn't actually make wizards weaker relative to fighters, and if anything makes it more likely for there to be multiple wizards in the same party. The problem isn't one class's flexibility, it's one class having resources to spend and another class not.
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Apr 6, 2016 20:56
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Webpages are better than the books for a lot of things anyway. Between http://donjon.bin.sh/5e/ and http://www.5esrd.com/ the only things I really wish I had are the class specialization details.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:01
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Is there any good review of 5e? I've been looking for one but a lot of them are these puff piece bullshit that feel like the reviewer got paid off with free poo poo from Wizards of the Coast.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:11
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The problem with balancing things around "casters have even fewer spell slots!" is that all you've done is ensure more rests. Spellcasters have always been the ones who decide when rests are taken.Quadratic_Wizard posted:4. Yeah, spellcasting is the most powerful class feature in 5e, but it's absolutely crystal clear the designers treated it as a "level 0" thing, similar to armor proficiency and skills. That more than anything is why the game is unbalanced. Yep. Pathfinder did the same thing; PF devs used to argue that spellcasters weren't that great because "they didn't gain new class abilities." Wizardfuckers have always ignored spellcasting as a class ability and have always just seen it as "the thing wizards do" without fundamentally or critically analyzing it.
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Apr 6, 2016 21:12
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I don't know about toning down wizards to make them equal to fighters. The solution should never be "make this thing worse", but should instead be "make everything else better in its own way."
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Apr 7, 2016 00:27
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Verisimilidude posted:I don't know about toning down wizards to make them equal to fighters. The solution should never be "make this thing worse", but should instead be "make everything else better in its own way." Even 4e failed to give wizards an actual role other than "shut down team monster and make the fight boring".
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Apr 7, 2016 00:38
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5e fans got the game they asked for. Unfortunately, trying to beef up any of the martial classes will be met with the same cries from the same nerds that complained about the playtest Fighter or 4e. We already know how to fix these problems or at least how to approach them, and half of them weren't even issues in the previous edition. The developers of the game and the audience they're catering to obviously don't care, though, since they decided on an aggressively regressive game design and wrote poo poo down based on gut feelings as opposed to any sort of mechanical or mathematical rigor. It's basically why this thread is half "What NOT to do when designing a tabletop game" and half "Just play a Bard."
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Apr 7, 2016 00:50
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i enjoy both 5e and playing a fighter.
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Apr 7, 2016 02:23
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:i enjoy both 5e and playing a fighter. This guy gets it.
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Apr 7, 2016 02:47
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:i enjoy both 5e and playing a fighter. What about it is enjoyable? Would you enjoy it more if you got to do more stuff?
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Apr 7, 2016 06:16
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:i enjoy both 5e and playing a fighter. What about the experience makes it enjoyable? What is unique to 5e and playing the fighter class in that system that you enjoy? I'm not being a dick here, I'm genuinely curious how a person that likes these things thinks.
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Apr 7, 2016 06:19
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A 50S RAYGUN posted:i enjoy both 5e and playing a fighter. What is it that Fighters do that you enjoy, and which could not be replicated by every other class?
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Apr 7, 2016 06:21
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"I enjoy chocolate cake." "What is it specifically that you enjoy about chocolate cake, and which could not be replicated by every other kind of chocolate dessert?" 5e isn't the best game. It's regressive in design and I can see how it's sort of insulting to some considering the relative leap of innovation that 4e was. It can also be quite fun, just as basically any other edition of D&D can and has been to millions of people. It's not the end of the world. I'd also be willing to bet that if 5e were released in a world where 4e didn't exist (i.e. as a direct successor to 3.5), goons would tend to have a much better opinion of it. At least 5e isn't loving Monopoly. Drone fucked around with this message at 07:03 on Apr 7, 2016 |
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Apr 7, 2016 07:01
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People enjoy Monopoly too though.
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Apr 7, 2016 07:05
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Drone posted:At least 5e isn't loving Monopoly. or RISK
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Apr 7, 2016 07:14
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Kai Tave posted:People enjoy Monopoly too though.
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Apr 7, 2016 07:19
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Over/under until some contrarian gently caress comes in here saying WELL IF YOU PLAY THE RULES AS WRITTEN
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Apr 7, 2016 07:25
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30.5 Days posted:Over/under until some contrarian gently caress comes in here saying WELL IF YOU PLAY THE RULES AS WRITTEN For 5E or monopoly? Monopoly goes faster if you play RAW, so technically its a better experience much like how removing your hand from a hot burner after five seconds its a better experience than removing it after a minute.
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Apr 7, 2016 07:28
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