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Endman posted:I'd completely ignore the ridiculous Commissar nonsense because despite what Hollywood would have you believe, the NKVD didn't go around summarily executing anyone who sneezed in an unpatriotic manner. What's worse is that, most of the time, the commissars in these games are not NKVD, they're company- and battalion-level commissars, who were generally part of the unit they accompanied. And based on records I've seen, they were punished for desertion right alongside the officers Hollywood thinks they should have shot. In reality, commissars were the Soviet equivalent of a chaplain; It's just that communism was the state religion. They attended to the morale of the troops, and shooting them is not really attending to their morale. Did they report on "actions against the State?" Yep, but usually about officers, not the men themselves, and certainly not in the middle of combat. As far as shooting people who retreated, I'm not sure it really ever happened, but only the NKVD had authorization to do so. Generally they'd arrest people who retreated and send them to penal battalions; why waste warm bodies? I'd also like someone to show me an army in the 40s that didn't shoot panic-mongers and deserters. All of this really comes from German propaganda that, after the war, the other allies had no reason to debunk.
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Apr 8, 2016 14:38
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V: I'm really good at reading 
spectralent fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 14:41
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That's my point, really.
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Apr 8, 2016 14:42
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I do think that having one of the big four be The Horde Faction makes for interesting gameplay, and the Soviets are what most people would think of for that (even though Americans would probably make more sense historically) so that parts fine. However, they have too many disadvantages to make up for their numerical advantage, and since you have a finite front area, it means that the soviets typically just can't bring enough of their numbers to bear in any given firefight. Now, it's important to note that Soviets are already not terrible. They win a decent - though below average - number of tournaments and in most battles they'd have a pretty good shot at winning. However, they should still be made somewhat stronger and much more fun. Here's my personal opinion on how to do that, many of which spectralent has already talked about : 1) Give them unique lists to draw from. At my gaming store, about half of players just like the country and play whatever lists they want. The other half like the history behind it, and so tend to go with either Americans or Germans. Soviets are out of luck in that second area. 2) Give them smoke. Now, soviets used smoke in a fundamentally different way than other countries in WW2 - being assigned higher than the battalions the game is played at - which is how battlefront explains its absence. It would be way cooler if the Soviets instead just got some sort of unique approach to smoke. Maybe airplane-style Smoke Support where they don't have any smoke artillery on the table, but have a chance to get it from off-table each turn? Smoke is vital to the game, Soviets not having it is IMO their biggest weakness. 3) I'm torn on Kommissars. On one hand, they're totally historically inaccurate and killing an entire team is just weird. On the other hand, they are pop culturally iconic and pretty cool.  Maybe just let them boost Motivation by +1 (so fearless passes on 2+, confident 3+)4) Get rid of Hens and Chicks. Find some other way to make their tanks weaker to preserve the Horde Balance, but a +1 penalty to hit is just too punishing in this game. Reduce their command distance or increase bogging chance or make them easier to hit in X condition or whatever 5) Let their good equipment actually be good. Katyushas suck, IS-2 and other heavy soviet tanks are terrible, and their AT guns are some of the worst in the game. The local Soviet player rants about this going against actual history all the time, so he's probably right After all of that, you can also increase their points slightly. They can be Horde Faction without filling 100% of the deployment area.
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Apr 8, 2016 14:51
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I think their hordiness is one of the biggest reasons so few people play them; it might look aesthetic to have them fill their entire deployment zone but to do that you need like six boxes of tanks, compared to like, three or four; it makes them way more expensive to buy into and take forever to put together. The Katyushas are basically free VP as well, yeah. They're a softskin unit that should be miles behind the front line being right next to the fighting, and they don't have the Katyusha's historically devastating effect on infantry. If you want a cheap pinning unit mortars are going to be better just because they can become dug-in infantry, and they have the same effectiveness on the table. The KVs aren't too bad, but they're basically just cheap assault tanks more than they are proper heavies in late war. The ISes are a bigger issue: They can do a lot of things reasonably well, but because they're slow tanks and only have RoF 1 they will basically never get to do all of it, and they pay the points for a multirole ability they're unable to use without excelling in any particular front that'd allow you to compensate for it. I think H&C's "failure to move" is a bigger issue, because as you say, you have limited frontage, and you're often forced to halt at a subpar spot to take your shots, because if your stragglers move everyone takes the hit. The result is you rarely get to use the whole barrage. +1 to hit is a nightmare against concealed vets though, yeah. Mass-execution komissars is just pure movie logic. +1 to morale would probably be fine (2+ guards strelk  )
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Apr 8, 2016 15:07
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2nd edition of Bolt Action has just been announced. Also a weird war 2 game. http://www.warlordgames.com/announc..._eid=5eafd5a5a8
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Apr 8, 2016 17:44
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I wrote up a recap of our experience playing SAGA at AdeptiCon in the team tourney: http://freshcoastgaming.blogspot.com/2016/04/adepticon-saga-grand-melee-team.html?m=1
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Apr 8, 2016 18:04
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BeigeJacket posted:2nd edition of Bolt Action has just been announced. Also a weird war 2 game. LOL, I was literally going to the local store to pick up the rules today. Guess I'll just grab an army book or something instead.
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Apr 8, 2016 18:18
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muggins posted:I wrote up a recap of our experience playing SAGA at AdeptiCon in the team tourney: Swagger Dagger posted:LOL, I was literally going to the local store to pick up the rules today. Guess I'll just grab an army book or something instead. My book was delivered TODAY, so imagine my disappointment - but all the army books are compatible and the 2nd edition only compiles the errata & FAQs, and isn't a complete rewrite like a GW book. Considering it's coming out in the autumn I'm not too fussed, especially if I get in several games between now and then.
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Apr 8, 2016 19:10
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JcDent posted:So tell me, lads, what are the issues with the Soviets in Flames of War, and how could they be solved/ what it would like if they were more historical? spectralent posted:It's worse than 40k because in 40k you've only killed one dude, rather than gunning down four or five guys in some kind of murder spree as FoW komissars apparently do on the reg.
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Apr 8, 2016 23:24
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Arquinsiel posted:You can have an entire army of experimental Panthers with IR sights but you can't have an entire army of KV-1s of any kind in any period of the war. You can have a KV army using the guards heavy tank list in red bear. It lets you take KVs, and it's probably the best option compared to taking IS-2s and getting hosed on points. quote:I love how it kind of implies that to improve morale the Commissar kills one dude, and four others immediately desert without being rumbled. Everyone is relieved on seeing that it's reasonably easy to escape, and their morale is restored.
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Apr 8, 2016 23:46
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spectralent posted:You can have a KV army using the guards heavy tank list in red bear. It lets you take KVs, and it's probably the best option compared to taking IS-2s and getting hosed on points.  I have no idea how I missed that. Now I guess I have a reason to buy yet more of the Zvezda KV-1s
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Apr 9, 2016 00:00
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The Commissar "shoots" the men off on some well-deserved convalescence.
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Apr 9, 2016 00:00
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Bolt Action has a Commissar as well, but he's totally optional. Any units he's in command range of must remove a model if they fail an orders test but can re-roll the test. If this happens 3 times in a turn the Commissar gets fragged instead. Of course the great thing about Bolt Action is that you can run almost any sort of force you want, from elite guards units with piles of firepower to "Enemy at the Gates was a documentary" style conscript hordes.
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Apr 9, 2016 00:44
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I just think Commissars are wholly inappropriate unless you're going to include a mechanic to represent the propaganda war. That would be pretty awesome, though. Mess with your enemy's head by shouting subversive messages over a loudspeaker! 
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Apr 9, 2016 00:56
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Endman posted:I just think Commissars are wholly inappropriate unless you're going to include a mechanic to represent the propaganda war. I've always wanted to rig up a Soviet tank with one of those programmable greeting card speakers and a hidden button so it can blast The Sacred War when I activate it.
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Apr 9, 2016 01:13
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Polikarpov posted:"Enemy at the Gates was a documentary" style conscript hordes. Lol
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Apr 9, 2016 01:17
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The Russian-produced film Stalingrad (2013) featured some pretty historically questionable depictions of events, but for some reason game designers always instead err on the side of the German propaganda.
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Apr 9, 2016 01:37
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Polikarpov posted:Bolt Action has a Commissar as well, but he's totally optional. Any units he's in command range of must remove a model if they fail an orders test but can re-roll the test. If this happens 3 times in a turn the Commissar gets fragged instead. This is what really bugs me about Flames. I wouldn't mind so much the existence of Commissars and rules like Hens and Chicks if that wasn't all there was. There's very few options to play non-horde Soviets, and the few lists that do exist are often incredibly limited. Just let me have Veteran T-34s, Battlefront!  Edit: moths posted:The Russian-produced film Stalingrad (2013) featured some pretty historically questionable depictions of events, but for some reason game designers always instead err on the side of the German propaganda.
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Apr 9, 2016 01:45
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moths posted:The Russian-produced film Stalingrad (2013) featured some pretty historically questionable depictions of events, but for some reason game designers always instead err on the side of the German propaganda. Holy crap that's hilarious
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Apr 9, 2016 01:46
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Bolt Action has some really cool options like strahfbat, naval brigades, nkvd, Siberia vets etc. BA is definitely ww2 the movie but it's cool to have options. Soon I'll have naval dudes painted
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Apr 9, 2016 01:49
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Man naval dudes in FoW are such a disappointment. They're just the same as regular strelk but their core platoons are one stand smaller 
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Apr 9, 2016 01:51
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Polikarpov posted:Bolt Action has a Commissar as well, but he's totally optional. Any units he's in command range of must remove a model if they fail an orders test but can re-roll the test. If this happens 3 times in a turn the Commissar gets fragged instead. Yeah, I was really disappointed with Bolt Action when I read that rule.  Endman posted:I just think Commissars are wholly inappropriate unless you're going to include a mechanic to represent the propaganda war. "If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day. If you cannot kill your German with a bullet, kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the meantime."
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Apr 9, 2016 02:00
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spectralent posted:Man naval dudes in FoW are such a disappointment. They're just the same as regular strelk but their core platoons are one stand smaller Yeah one of the reasons I don't play FoW very much anymore is that my Naval Infantry just can't cut it against many lists these days, even casual ones.
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Apr 9, 2016 02:14
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IM GOING TO GO INSANE IF I HAVE TO ASSEMBLE ANY MORE M113's FOR TEAM YANKEE HOLY poo poo YOU NEED SO MANY. gently caress I just realized that I still need one more box of them. NO NO NONO NOO NOO El Estrago Bonito posted:Yeah one of the reasons I don't play FoW very much anymore is that my Naval Infantry just can't cut it against many lists these days, even casual ones. Why not just play regular strelk with naval infantry figures and just not give a poo poo that the TO&E is slightly different? Then you won't have this problem.
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Apr 9, 2016 04:19
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Numlock posted:IM GOING TO GO INSANE IF I HAVE TO ASSEMBLE ANY MORE M113's FOR TEAM YANKEE HOLY poo poo YOU NEED SO MANY. It's pretty illustrative of Battlefront's approach to Soviets, though-take a base list, make one or two exceedingly minor changes, change the name, and call it a day. They just have no interest in making interesting or diverse lists for Soviets, and it's pretty sad.
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Apr 9, 2016 05:01
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moths posted:The Russian-produced film Stalingrad (2013) featured some pretty historically questionable depictions of events, but for some reason game designers always instead err on the side of the German propaganda. Polikarpov posted:Bolt Action has a Commissar as well, but he's totally optional. Any units he's in command range of must remove a model if they fail an orders test but can re-roll the test. If this happens 3 times in a turn the Commissar gets fragged instead.
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Apr 9, 2016 11:11
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Numlock posted:IM GOING TO GO INSANE IF I HAVE TO ASSEMBLE ANY MORE M113's FOR TEAM YANKEE HOLY poo poo YOU NEED SO MANY. Complain when you've put together soviets in BMPs  Acebuckeye13 posted:It's pretty illustrative of Battlefront's approach to Soviets, though-take a base list, make one or two exceedingly minor changes, change the name, and call it a day. They just have no interest in making interesting or diverse lists for Soviets, and it's pretty sad. Yeah; for any other army something like Naval infantry would have it's own special rules, or at the very least a different TO&E. Compare things like the naval infantry, an entirely different branch of service altogether fielding infantry, with things like the Nisei, paras lists, upcoming US marines...
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Apr 9, 2016 11:28
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Yeah, like in real life the Russian Morskaya were cool because they used a very different swift assault doctrine to the Strelk. For instance while they did use Maxims on occasion, by the late war they had swapped them out for guys carrying the DP LMGs because they were easier to position. A lot of it is Soviet propaganda but they were also renowned for extremely effective frontal assaults using huge units of guys armed with SMGs, so that's also a thing. You think they'd get a nod as the expensive mostly tank free Soviet elite list with Fearless Vet and One Way Ticket to Heaven or something but it's BF so no.
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Apr 9, 2016 12:50
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El Estrago Bonito posted:A lot of it is Soviet propaganda... I mean, Battlefront have also given us FV, unique-special-rules SS all over the shop, so I don't think it's unreasonable to assume pop-culture-potent elites from the soviets as well.
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Apr 9, 2016 15:36
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Well now that you say and when you consider the options that say 8th army gets... As for BA, it seems you have to either friend someone to play historical TO&E or prepare for StG44 and never see LMGs
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Apr 9, 2016 16:24
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Holy crap it's a calm sunny spring day. This means one thing: time to prime some of the poo poo I've built over winter:
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Apr 9, 2016 16:31
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Acebuckeye13 posted:It's pretty illustrative of Battlefront's approach to Soviets, though-take a base list, make one or two exceedingly minor changes, change the name, and call it a day. They just have no interest in making interesting or diverse lists for Soviets, and it's pretty sad. They actually apologized for this a while back. It boils down to that they didn't have anybody on their staff that could read Russian so most of the sources they could work with was German records and accounts which are fairly one-sided about the situation. Also they were focused on the Western front as that was the area of main interest for them personally and for most of their player base. They supposedly corrected the situation, but you probably won't see big changes until V4. Though if Team Yankee is any indication, V4 will probably cut down on the special rules (ether by getting rid of them or giving them to everybody) so it won't be that big of a deal even if the Soviets don't change from how they are now.
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Apr 9, 2016 21:51
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In other words, Soviets will never get to be cool and unique like every other army  If I could just have katyushas that weren't free VP I'd probably be happy tbh
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Apr 9, 2016 22:03
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What makes the Katyusha so bad? I know the IS-2 is garbage.
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Apr 9, 2016 22:29
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Numlock posted:They actually apologized for this a while back. This is such bullshit, there have been English language history books about the Red Army for decades now. Someone buy Battlefront an Osprey for goodness sake.
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Apr 9, 2016 23:16
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Flipswitch posted:What makes the Katyusha so bad? I know the IS-2 is garbage. They're a slightly worse heavy mortar for slightly cheaper (factoring in the fact you get an observer) without any of the advantages of being infantry (no GTG in the open, 5+ save instead of 3+ and IIRC no FP), which makes them ridiculously vulnerable. They're often an outright liability to bring, even. Historically, they were utterly devastating weapons, too, which makes it a particular annoyance that they're not all that useful, especially because one of the factors in how scary they were was how quickly a barrage got laid down, which isn't a thing represented anywhere in the katyusha's rules, but is a special rule the brits and americans get which makes their artillery a big threat.
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Apr 9, 2016 23:26
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To be fair massive infantry platoons isn't solely the Russian gimmick. The Italians, Romanians, and Poles(to some extent) have them, too but they're so bad that they're never used in competitive play. The Italian and Romanian lists that see play are the ones without the big platoons, e.g. carri, tancuri.
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Apr 10, 2016 00:06
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Panzeh posted:To be fair massive infantry platoons isn't solely the Russian gimmick. The Italians, Romanians, and Poles(to some extent) have them, too but they're so bad that they're never used in competitive play. The Italian and Romanian lists that see play are the ones without the big platoons, e.g. carri, tancuri. The Italians only have a couple of horde lists, though; their main thing is their random scores for their stats. The Poles in EW are big, but they're also using multiple command stands, so you're basically buying several slightly large platoons instead of a massive platoon of twenty-plus dudes like the soviets* (Late war they're brit TO&Es with unique special rules). Romanians are probably the closest, but they've also got the random morale thing. They all get smoke, and none of them have Quality of Quantity, which is a big part of their image; "the soviet horde charging into machineguns" type propoganda. Also none of them get Hen-and-Chicks. *Incidentally this is a model I would be quite happy to see them adopt for Soviets. EDIT: I should probably mention that I don't think horde lists are bad, soviets are even quite successful. Just it's all they do, and it's constructed in a way that plays into the slavic hordes myth in a lazy and ugly way. I mean, it's not the worst thing ever but I kinda eyeroll at it. spectralent fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Apr 10, 2016 |
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Apr 10, 2016 00:22
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I love cold war stuff so is team yankee for me? Also are there any naval minis games?
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Apr 10, 2016 01:40
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