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I'm highly annoyed by how Gregor was wearing that goofy and useless leather helmet thingy.
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Apr 7, 2016 22:25
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Davos & Ghost: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEXGWMpke4s
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Apr 8, 2016 06:39
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that scene better end with ghost ripping out potato boys throat
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Apr 8, 2016 06:59
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Lycus posted:Davos & Ghost: Ollie gonna kill Davos.
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Apr 8, 2016 06:59
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Phenotype posted:You're kind of missing the purpose here. It's just a neat bit of non-essential world-building encased in a little puzzle hidden in the writing. It doesn't end up mattering to the plot, but it adds a little something to Oberyn's character to those that work it out or hear about it on the forums, and it provides a nice answer to the minor question of why Tywin's corpse might be putrefying. It makes the world feel a little more realistic to have these details, too, because everything doesn't always end up being meaningful or fully explained in real life, either. If you miss it, then you miss a minor detail of a minor character unimportant to the main plot, but it certainly exists. It doesn't answer why Tywin's corpse might be putrefying, though. Oberyn certainly had the motive and the means to poison Tywin, as well as the potential opportunity, and Tywin may even have left a stinky, poopy corpse, but it's a complete non-sequitur to draw a link between that and his body going green and runny.
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Apr 8, 2016 08:01
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OrthoTrot posted:I'm not sure if you're saying this means the theory is true or the theory is false. Personally I agree with everything you've said but I think it all means the theory is wrong. It would completely invalidate the reason Oberyn was written into the story, as I see it. It would undercut the whole narrative purpose for his existence. I have really no opinion on the theory, because to me the whole scene with Tywin loving Shae is very lazy story telling if there is not going to be some crazy revelation coming. Why would Tywin, the richest and most powerful man in the seven kingdoms gently caress the whore of his dwarf son? She is not even his type, given that the only woman Tywin ever fancied was Joanna Lannister, who was blonde and had a rather light complexion while Shae had black hair and a dark complexion. But even if you assume that it was all plotted by Varys it makes no sense, because if he knew that Tywin was poisoned he achieves nothing by Tyrion being involved in the murder and if he didn't know that Tywin was poisoned how did he know that Tywin would sit long enough on the shitter to not notice Shae before Tyrion saw her?
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Apr 8, 2016 09:01
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GRRM said there's more to be revealed about that night.
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Apr 8, 2016 09:12
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Phenotype posted:You're kind of missing the purpose here. It's just a neat bit of non-essential world-building encased in a little puzzle hidden in the writing. I don't really think that 'non-essential world-building encased in a little puzzle hidden in the writing' is neat. But this isn't really even world-building. This is just coming up with alternate explanations for the plot of the book (or an alternative plot altogether) that has been told to you. It's not really the same thing. The theory isn't about a 'minor detail of a minor character unimportant to the main plot'. Oberyn poisoning Tywin is only unimportant in terms of the plot mechanics (because Tywin dies anyway), but it changes the themes, the narrative drive, etc. What we are seeing in terms of Tyrion's plotline is simply not the same if Tywin has been poisoned by Oberyn. Oberyn becomes a different character, since what we see of him is essentially him lying. It's not a trivial thing at all. Tyrion's plight becomes something very different. What really misses the point is saying that this inelegant writing would make for 'realism'. Especially in this case, since the 'realism' is already there by having Oberyn lose in the first place. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 09:42
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Pedro De Heredia posted:
I guess that's a pretty good point. I'm not big on fan theories, and always assumed tywin's advanced decomposition was just an indication that the faith were already sabotaging the Lannisters right under their noses. But it does seem pretty plausible that at some point Littlefinger will sow further discord by revealing Olenna's plan. Assuming the poison theory is right, it would create a sad bit of irony for Tyrion to find that out at some point, and know that he's stuck rotting in Essos forever because he crossbowed a dead man.
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Apr 8, 2016 10:23
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GaussianCopula posted:given that the only woman Tywin ever fancied was Joanna Lannister One of the important things in the series is that people can be significantly different from their reputation (Stannis, for example).
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Apr 8, 2016 11:08
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OrthoTrot posted:At least Jojen paste or Daario = Euron might actually matter once GRRM dies and someone finishes the books. In the show is Daario going to be Yara?
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Apr 8, 2016 11:35
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MrL_JaKiri posted:One of the important things in the series is that people can be significantly different from their reputation (Stannis, for example). I'm not sure that there's no point to him doing it either. Him using Shae is yet another form of manipulation and dominance over Tyrion. And even that aside doesn't Varys say that one of the former Hands of the King had a fondness for whores and used the secret passes in the palace to bring them in? Aka strongly implicating Tywin.
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Apr 8, 2016 14:40
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Ginette Reno posted:I'm not sure that there's no point to him doing it either. Him using Shae is yet another form of manipulation and dominance over Tyrion. Even if we overlook the fact that it would only be manipulation/dominance over Tyrion if Tyrion knew that Tywin was loving Shae, that would be only slightly above Joffrey/Ramsay tier display of power, which for all we know about Tywin, would not be his style. Even if we assume that Tywin was the hand that fancies whores, which I seriously doubt given the devotion he had for his wife, why would he have to resort to loving the used plaything of his dwarf son, who was a simple camp follower before?
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Apr 8, 2016 14:49
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GaussianCopula posted:Even if we overlook the fact that it would only be manipulation/dominance over Tyrion if Tyrion knew that Tywin was loving Shae, that would be only slightly above Joffrey/Ramsay tier display of power, which for all we know about Tywin, would not be his style. Even if we assume that Tywin was the hand that fancies whores, which I seriously doubt given the devotion he had for his wife, why would he have to resort to loving the used plaything of his dwarf son, who was a simple camp follower before? Because: MrL_JaKiri posted:One of the important things in the series is that people can be significantly different from their reputation (Stannis, for example). Like MrL said it's a common theme for people in the series to be different than how they portray themselves. Tywin being a massive hypocrite about whoring would be perfectly in line with that theme. I don't know if Varys pushed for or even planted Shae there but he obviously masterminded the assassination part of it at least. He likely knew she'd be there, and after some very weak protesting to Tyrion he pointed out exactly where Tyrion needed to go to get to Tywin.
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Apr 8, 2016 15:15
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GaussianCopula posted:Even if we overlook the fact that it would only be manipulation/dominance over Tyrion if Tyrion knew that Tywin was loving Shae, that would be only slightly above Joffrey/Ramsay tier display of power, which for all we know about Tywin, would not be his style. Even if we assume that Tywin was the hand that fancies whores, which I seriously doubt given the devotion he had for his wife, why would he have to resort to loving the used plaything of his dwarf son, who was a simple camp follower before? why is everyone so hung up on his "devotion to his wife". He's clearly full of poo poo and likes whores. He doesnt live up to his reputation, like most public figures or celebrities, and is ultimately more like Tyrion that he would like to admit to himself. and whether Oberyn poisoned him or not is irrelevant. The thing is that for all the power and dignity blah blah of Tywin, in the end hes just a rotting corpse and Cersei doesnt want anyone to know so it doesnt ruin his reputation and his public perception.
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Apr 8, 2016 15:16
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GaussianCopula posted:Even if we overlook the fact that it would only be manipulation/dominance over Tyrion if Tyrion knew that Tywin was loving Shae, that would be only slightly above Joffrey/Ramsay tier display of power, which for all we know about Tywin, would not be his style. Even if we assume that Tywin was the hand that fancies whores, which I seriously doubt given the devotion he had for his wife, why would he have to resort to loving the used plaything of his dwarf son, who was a simple camp follower before? Probably because Shae's hot. It's that simple really, anyone who has a predilection for whores, like Tywin seemingly does, knows full well that they've been with many other men before, so the fact that she's been "used" wouldn't really matter that much. Hell, she may have even seduced Tywin to keep the Lannisters from killing her after she served her purpose of incriminating Tyrion.
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Apr 8, 2016 16:13
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TommyGun85 posted:why is everyone so hung up on his "devotion to his wife". He's clearly full of poo poo and likes whores. Beeez posted:Probably because Shae's hot Nailed it in two. It's not any more complicated than this.
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Apr 8, 2016 16:32
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Everyone likes whores, you don't have to hate your wife to like super hot whores.
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Apr 8, 2016 17:05
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Tywin having a secret predilection for whores makes perfect sense too since his Dad married one and nearly destroyed their house in the process. It fits that whole not being able to escape your family history deal. And since Tyrion is Tywin's truest heir that's just one more thing they have in common.
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Apr 8, 2016 18:17
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I"m almost inclined to believe that shae was chloroforumed and moved there by Varys. She woke up confused and was strangled before she could say "wait where am I?". Varys's "no no don't go up there" is clearly just a "don't throw me into the briar patch". I don't think Tywin in the toilet scene acknowledged her at all. I can't remember though. If he did he only called her "a/the whore" so then I think Varys Chloroforumed two whores and swapped them. Or it's exactly what it looked like. He leaned on her to get her testimony to send his turbulent son to the wall, and she turned the innocent charm to 11, told him exactly what he wanted to hear, and he's only human...
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Apr 8, 2016 19:12
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Iirc the first thing she says is "my lord" and then panics and tries to escape the instant she recognizes Tyrion. Sounds like she was there banging Tywin to me.
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Apr 8, 2016 19:30
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That. Coulda. Been. Literally. Any. Lord. Even Varys is a loving lord. She could have been like "wow thanks for letting me use your hard stone bed, Varys, this did my bad back a treat."
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Apr 8, 2016 19:41
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This game is called Not All Whores...
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Apr 8, 2016 19:57
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quote:"M'lord?" a woman's voice called. I'd say she certainly knew where she was, and she was definitely banging Tywin and expecting him to get back from the toilet but it's not inconceivable that her story checks out and that she was really coerced into framing and humiliating Tyrion. If that matters.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:07
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Tywin asks that she be brought to his chambers after Cersei points her out at the wedding or whatever.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:49
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Iirc the first thing she says is "my lord" and then panics and tries to escape the instant she recognizes Tyrion. I have no doubt that Shae was expecting to bang Tywin. The question is whether Tywin was expecting to bang Shae, which I still doubt. Beeez posted:Probably because Shae's hot. It's that simple really, anyone who has a predilection for whores, like Tywin seemingly does, knows full well that they've been with many other men before, so the fact that she's been "used" wouldn't really matter that much. Hell, she may have even seduced Tywin to keep the Lannisters from killing her after she served her purpose of incriminating Tyrion. The point is not that she was used, all whores are used, but that she was used by his freaking son for a prolonged period of time and I don't remember Shae being described as being an exceptionally hot or bright whore. The potential scandal that would have resulted from Tywin banging her, the whore of the imp, alone should have been enough to deter him, given that he can have a whore from Lys if that he wanted. Krinkle posted:I"m almost inclined to believe that shae was chloroforumed and moved there by Varys. She woke up confused and was strangled before she could say "wait where am I?". Varys's "no no don't go up there" is clearly just a "don't throw me into the briar patch". I don't think Tywin in the toilet scene acknowledged her at all. I can't remember though. If he did he only called her "a/the whore" so then I think Varys Chloroforumed two whores and swapped them. Tywin does indeed never acknowledge her, their talk is purely centered Tysha. I don't even think that Varys whould have needed to drug her, given that she, at least in the book, is a very naive person, who would have believed him if Varys said "come with me, sweetling, Lord Tywin wants to gently caress you".
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Apr 8, 2016 20:52
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Ginette Reno posted:Tywin having a secret predilection for whores makes perfect sense too since his Dad married one and nearly destroyed their house in the process. It fits that whole not being able to escape your family history deal. Yeah, but Tyrion killed Tywin's "one true love" and Tywin only had Tyrion's raped repeatedly in front of him, so not quit 1 to 1, but pretty close there too!
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Apr 8, 2016 20:53
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Krinkle posted:I"m almost inclined to believe that shae was chloroforumed and moved there by Varys. She woke up confused and was strangled before she could say "wait where am I?". Varys's "no no don't go up there" is clearly just a "don't throw me into the briar patch". I don't think Tywin in the toilet scene acknowledged her at all. I can't remember though. If he did he only called her "a/the whore" so then I think Varys Chloroforumed two whores and swapped them. There's 0 texual evidence that supports this theory.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:55
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I don't even know how you could misread that scene guys, she's in Tywin's chamber wearing the Hand necklace, you ought to assume that she wouldn't have worn the necklace without Tywin consenting to it at some point cause it's not like a whore just sent to his room without his knowledge would start rummaging through his jewelry and wear the artifice of his office in a way that could be perceived as insulting, Tywin is known as a stern prickly man to me this basically screams that they were having a rather nice time when Tywin needed to hit the shitter. She is of course also smiling when Tyrion finds her, like she was expecting someone she's in a cozy relationship with, say a lover, if she was just sent to his room without his knowledge or whatever she wouldn't be dozing off on his bed waking up with a smile.
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Apr 8, 2016 21:03
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I had to go look it up. At the royal breakfast in season 4 episode 2 cersei points out shae to tywin. Tywin asks that she be brought to the tower of the hand before the wedding. He absolutely knew who she was and it's silly to think otherwise.
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Apr 8, 2016 21:14
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She woke up smiling out of sheer force of habit from years of her vocation. She said "uhhh your dad made me, your sister scares me" out of a blind panic, referring literally only to the trial, the only betrayal that she is aware of. She was murdered without being asked any direct questions about loving Tywin. There's no reason to believe anything varys does is straight up or as it appears. There's a perfectly good reason to think he set up this situation because gently caress it, if Jaime is forcing him to blow his cover he might as well make it worth it. I think it's harsh to say there's no reason to think this, it's in character at least. Be a suspicious bastard for a minute and wonder which narrators are unreliable and how deep the rabbit hole goes. I'm not saying the literal interpretation is wrong. I'm just saying that scene seemed fishy as hell to me. I'm willing to go as low as "varys knew tywin was taking a poo poo AND had tyrion's whore up there so he nudged the conversation in the direction that points him and a crossbow towards privy patricide." but that's it. Complete innocent blind luck coincidence is too much for me.
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Apr 8, 2016 21:21
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How the gently caress did this happen I've never double posted, not never. what the gently caress?
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Apr 8, 2016 21:21
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Awfulapp does that some times, but your theory is crackpot and doesn't really follow what happened. Sorry. 
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Apr 8, 2016 21:32
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Uh, no. Shae is laying in the bed before Tyrion even meets Varys. She's laying in bed, mumbles "Tywin?" and "My lion?" then sees Tyrion. Definitely was boning Tywin. Subtitles help.
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Apr 8, 2016 21:40
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GaussianCopula posted:I have no doubt that Shae was expecting to bang Tywin. The question is whether Tywin was expecting to bang Shae, which I still doubt. Hmm, yes if there's one thing I know about Tywin Lanister, it's that he's a man whose integrity is beyond reproach, and is certainly not one to indulge in rubbing his deformed and hated sons face in the dirt. 
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Apr 8, 2016 21:56
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This is a really lovely tangent to get off onto when we have new Game of Thrones footage to pore over. What do you guys think the context is to Alliser and his band of assassins trying to get at Jon's corpse? Do you think they're aware that Melisandre might be able to resurrect him and are trying to head off that process? Are they after Davos and the other Jon loyalists? Are they after Ghost, who now holds Jon's consciousness? Are they just really wanting a big dog?
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Apr 8, 2016 22:21
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Someone asked alistair "uhhh what is jon's wolf going to do when it smells jon is dead" and he said "oh right, the wolf, better kill it then" and that's it. That's his whole motivation.
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Apr 8, 2016 22:23
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It turns out that all those dudes in that pantry with Jon just got there and were as confused as anyone as to why the dead Lord Commander is lain out on the table with his wolf guarding him. Ghost even dressed Jon's wounds and put the googly-eyed stones on his body!
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Apr 8, 2016 22:25
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Apoplexy posted:This is a really lovely tangent to get off onto when we have new Game of Thrones footage to pore over. What do you guys think the context is to Alliser and his band of assassins trying to get at Jon's corpse? Do you think they're aware that Melisandre might be able to resurrect him and are trying to head off that process? Are they after Davos and the other Jon loyalists? Are they after Ghost, who now holds Jon's consciousness? Are they just really wanting a big dog? Maybe they Wanna burn him? I'm more curious to see how Davos and the loyalists got Jon's body away from the mutineers in the first place. Also, I gotta say, the direction on the preview scene was really bad. The shots of the crowd of mutineers just kind of loitering outside of the door did not convey the tension I think the scene needed. Davos' line was pretty badass though and I hope Ghost finally starts doing his job as direwolf protector and ripping out some throats because he has let Jon down so many times in the show.
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Apr 8, 2016 22:37
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I think they might possibly want to behead him and ghost and send their heads to the boltons, otherwise yeah they might just want to burn him though I'm not actually sure what would be the motivation to not burn him as it's the standard procedure at the wall.
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Apr 8, 2016 22:41
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