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I guess I don't even need to ask whether they use the "park outside the city, take public transport in" method there? That's what they have been building up in major Dutch cities over the last 10+ years and it works quite well. The parking is usually free, or combined with a cheap bus ticket, and the parking areas are right along the highways with signs along the highway providing info. Much cheaper than parking in the city, and there's always a spot.
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Apr 4, 2016 13:06
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Entropist posted:I guess I don't even need to ask whether they use the "park outside the city, take public transport in" method there? That's what they have been building up in major Dutch cities over the last 10+ years and it works quite well. The parking is usually free, or combined with a cheap bus ticket, and the parking areas are right along the highways with signs along the highway providing info. Much cheaper than parking in the city, and there's always a spot. You can't carry 500 rolls of toilet paper in the bus, and in America, toilet paper packs don't come in any smaller sizes. They can't help it.
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Apr 4, 2016 13:12
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If you have a parking app it is easy to abuse those "cheap first hour" parking zones. Just sign out for 1 minute and sign back in again. Automated enforcement does not flag this as a violation and you will pay the cheap price all day long. Wouldn't work for a parking garage though.
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Apr 4, 2016 19:57
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My Imaginary GF posted:Can you link some of the available lit? I'm going before the rest of our council later this month to argue you make more money by growing your client base than you do by making a vacant lot for parking. This is bike-centric, but a lot of the arguments should carry over. http://www.citylab.com/cityfixer/2015/03/the-complete-business-case-for-converting-street-parking-into-bike-lanes/387595/
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Apr 4, 2016 21:52
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It costs $1.25 an hour to take up a street spot on Boston common. I once circled the common and public garden for 40 minutes without winning a spot.
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Apr 4, 2016 23:31
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RadioPassive posted:It costs $1.25 an hour to take up a street spot on Boston common. I once circled the common and public garden for 40 minutes without winning a spot. That is insanely cheap parking. That's parking socialism. Let the market decide on the price.
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Apr 4, 2016 23:33
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You could have parked in the common garage. During a weekday it's fairly expensive but on the weekend $18/day is pretty reasonable compared to other Boston area garages.quote:Weekday Rates:
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Apr 4, 2016 23:45
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4h-allday for less than $50? Bargin for city centre secure parking.
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Apr 5, 2016 01:52
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One thing they are trying to here is make street parking more expensive than garage parking. It also will go up every hour. Makes sense as the quick trips can pay for a short meter while long termer can go to a garage. Though my backup spot when I don't bike is a 10 hour meter that only costs 3.25, which is awesome. Sure I'll lose that soon.
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Apr 5, 2016 02:20
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drunkill posted:4h-allday for less than $50? Bargin for city centre secure parking. There isn't all that much that's actually a comfortable walk from there, is the thing. Though it's a decent place to park for connection with the rapid transit system if you chose not to park at any of the out-of-the-city terminals with massive parking garages. E.g. the Wonderland station for if you're coming from the North and Northeast has about 2000 spots and costs $5 for 1-14 hours and $12 for 14-24. Alewife for the Northwest and West has ~3000 spaces and costs $7 a day or $8 overnight. Riverside right off of 95 for the West and Southwest has about a 1000 spaces and is $6 for a day or $13 overnight. The Braintree, Quincy Adams, Quincy Center stations all have between 1000 and 2500 spots and are usually $7 for the day, $8 overnight - and they're good for coming from the South or Southeast.
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Apr 5, 2016 02:53
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My Imaginary GF posted:Can you link some of the available lit? I'm going before the rest of our council later this month to argue you make more money by growing your client base than you do by making a vacant lot for parking. Donald Shoup has you covered: http://www.shoupdogg.com/publications/
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Apr 5, 2016 04:36
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NihilismNow posted:If you have a parking app it is easy to abuse those "cheap first hour" parking zones. Just sign out for 1 minute and sign back in again. Automated enforcement does not flag this as a violation and you will pay the cheap price all day long. Wouldn't work for a parking garage though. If people want to go and physically check their car out once every hour then they can have the free parking. Its their time they're wasting.
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Apr 5, 2016 07:32
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Lobsterpillar posted:If people want to go and physically check their car out once every hour then they can have the free parking. Its their time they're wasting. The parking apps I have used do not have location-checks built in, so checking in just consists of pushing a button on your phone.
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Apr 5, 2016 15:56
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Lobsterpillar posted:If people want to go and physically check their car out once every hour then they can have the free parking. Its their time they're wasting. No you open the app and click "stop parking action", wait a few seconds and then click "Park in zone $zone". You could even script it if you are really lazy.
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Apr 5, 2016 17:43
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NihilismNow posted:No you open the app and click "stop parking action", wait a few seconds and then click "Park in zone $zone". Haha so its basically a trust based paid parking zone? That is hilarious, what is even the point of trying to charge people for it?
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Apr 6, 2016 07:03
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Lobsterpillar posted:Haha so its basically a trust based paid parking zone? That is hilarious, what is even the point of trying to charge people for it? If it's only a small portion of people abusing it, then they're not missing out on too much revenue. When that percentage inevitably climbs, it seems pretty simple to fix, either through some marginally intelligent backend software (limit the amount of free parking each user can get per day) or by removing free parking entirely.
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Apr 6, 2016 12:13
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Do they not have to type in a stall number? Where I live every street parking space has a little number and when you pay for parking you have to enter that number into the little machine or your phone. If you want to do first hour free it seems really easy to use a system like this but have it smart enough to figure out that trick. I guess it wouldn't help for people manually going to the little machine since that doesn't require any sort of login so there is no way to tell if it's the same person coming and going or a legitimate new car pulling in.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:44
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Baronjutter posted:Do they not have to type in a stall number? Where I live every street parking space has a little number and when you pay for parking you have to enter that number into the little machine or your phone. If you want to do first hour free it seems really easy to use a system like this but have it smart enough to figure out that trick. I guess it wouldn't help for people manually going to the little machine since that doesn't require any sort of login so there is no way to tell if it's the same person coming and going or a legitimate new car pulling in. No stall numbers, just the zone and your license plate number. I agree it would be really easy to post a rule "only 3 free hours per 24 hour period" and scan the database for any car that violates that rule. For parking discs there is another method, you can buy parking discs that are hooked up to a clock mechanism, so you continuously parked in that zone 35 minutes ago so your free hours never run out. Then again if they notice the fine is €270 instead of €60 for a regular parking violation. People will try to abuse any free or cheap parking in cities with a lack of parking spaces. A lot of office workers in Amsterdam south east just dump their car on the Ikea parking lot for the day. Home improvement stores also have to deal with this (and have signs posted that they will have your car towed if you leave it unattended for longer than X hours). The only solution is enough parking spaces.
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Apr 6, 2016 18:36
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NihilismNow posted:No stall numbers, just the zone and your license plate number. I agree it would be really easy to post a rule "only 3 free hours per 24 hour period" and scan the database for any car that violates that rule. I wouldn't say the ONLY solution is "enough" parking spaces. Number of parking spaces is arbitrary and should be tied into regional planning as it's essentially determining the number of people that can drive to X area. Purposefully limiting the amount of parking in an area is a very good policy to push people onto other modes and limit driving in an area. When areas try to constantly chase trying to get "enough" parking they big time induce demand and end up with a district that's nothing but parking and highways. Also limit commuter-dense areas (like office complexes) to places with transit capacity to handle them. Private building owners can invest in parking for their buildings if they want of course, but it should never be mandated or subsidized in any way. If street parking fills up, raise the price or institute a permit system. The best way to solve parking issues is by reducing the amount of cars trying to park through carrots (good transit, bike infra, pleasant/safe to walk, transit pass deals through work) and sticks (expensive and limited parking).
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Apr 6, 2016 18:55
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NihilismNow posted:No stall numbers, just the zone and your license plate number. I agree it would be really easy to post a rule "only 3 free hours per 24 hour period" and scan the database for any car that violates that rule. Why can't it be "one hour's free parking, no return to that zone within 3 hours" or something like that? But yeah, the solution is really to just charge a flat rate from the moment you park. Seems odd that in free market America municipalities the norm is essentially to rent out often valuable roadside real estate to drivers for [next to] nothing. Surely they should be extracting the maximum market rate..?
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Apr 6, 2016 20:53
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Jonnty posted:Seems odd that in free market America municipalities the norm is essentially to rent out often valuable roadside real estate to drivers for [next to] nothing.
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Apr 7, 2016 00:43
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Our local downtown had free one hour spots for a while, then first hour free for any spot, then they just gave up and charge from minute 1. Must have had some reason.
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Apr 7, 2016 01:13
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CopperHound posted:I think free parking is in our bill of rights somewhere as a god given inalienable right. It's on the Monopoly board, bah gawd!
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Apr 7, 2016 01:30
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I wouldn't mind taking public transit to downtown with its limited parking, but it takes 1.5hrs because all the bus routes go to the college campus first. Plus, they don't run the buses past 7pm. Our city then sees that nobody but the college students seem to be using the bus, and never make good routes.
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Apr 7, 2016 17:05
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effika posted:I wouldn't mind taking public transit to downtown with its limited parking, but it takes 1.5hrs because all the bus routes go to the college campus first. Plus, they don't run the buses past 7pm. Our city then sees that nobody but the college students seem to be using the bus, and never make good routes. If you can't run a public transit system well, don't run a public transit system, I say. Our downtown has moved in recent years to 2-hour free parking with no parking between 2am and 6am. Nobody enforces the 2 hours, and the no parking between 2a and 6a only encourages drunk driving from what I've seen. What I would like to see happen is to have the university invest in new housing downtown in a walk-friendly manner, to narrow the highway between the lake and the city, to rezone downtown to eliminate parking requirement, to put in traffic circles and bike lanes, to build a corridor between the local university and the downtown which promotes commercial activity, and to make everyone some goddamn money while doing all of the above. I don't give a poo poo that you may have to walk half a block to get to the store you wanted to go to, get off your goddamn rear end and walk and quit contributing to the obesity epidemic. I see parking, and I see a mode of transit which is a direct pipeline to foreign oil and petroleum refineries. That money spent on gas could be spent instead on a sandwich god damnit! Quit throwing your money away in a manner which don't benefit the community, and start giving folk a reason to spend more in the area. Like, you wouldn't believe the goddamn looks I get for walking 500 feet to the grocery store, requesting paper, and telling the bagger to quit following me and no I don't need your little bag trolly to get to my house. Too much parking, not enough walking, too many fat people, and fat is a symptom of poverty. This city could solve all its issues if it only got rid of its goddamn parking and collaborated with area institutions to make some money in a sustainable manner.
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Apr 7, 2016 17:35
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Entropist posted:I guess I don't even need to ask whether they use the "park outside the city, take public transport in" method there? That's what they have been building up in major Dutch cities over the last 10+ years and it works quite well. The parking is usually free, or combined with a cheap bus ticket, and the parking areas are right along the highways with signs along the highway providing info. Much cheaper than parking in the city, and there's always a spot. This is the thing in newer cities and cities with newer public transportation grids, you drive to a parking lot/mega center, and take the brand new light rail/transit into downtown.
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Apr 8, 2016 00:28
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If your area can't even support transit and needs a huge parking lot so people can drive to the nearest station I think the much better solution would be to structure the new neighbourhoods so they're all within easy walking/cycle distance of the station and in numbers sufficient for good service rather than spend a fortune on huge subsidized parking lots. NL is such a tiny dense country there's no excuse for car-centric sprawl dependent on park and ride.
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Apr 8, 2016 01:08
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Baronjutter posted:...structure the new neighbourhoods... Around here, this is entirely up to the whims of developers. It's so much cheaper to buy a farm and turn it into a subdivision than to build an apartment building downtown or demolish a neighborhood and replace it with something denser. People at our public meeting keep talking about everything being TOD, and we keep emphasizing that we have absolutely zero control over what kinds of development go in. Most realistically, given the existing land use in Hartford, it'll all become surface parking lots. Edit: I should clarify, "we" means the design team. The City, in theory, has some control over what goes in. As we've seen in some cases, though, developers can just promise the moon to get approval / subsidies and then produce absolute garbage. Cichlidae fucked around with this message at 12:14 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 12:08
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Also there is obviously no central planning in the states, so even if your city has a hard line on things, they just build in the next town over. Actually, does it work better in the parts of the country that have very large cities by area?
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Apr 8, 2016 12:46
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Baronjutter posted:If your area can't even support transit and needs a huge parking lot so people can drive to the nearest station I think the much better solution would be to structure the new neighbourhoods so they're all within easy walking/cycle distance of the station and in numbers sufficient for good service rather than spend a fortune on huge subsidized parking lots. NL is such a tiny dense country there's no excuse for car-centric sprawl dependent on park and ride. In the Netherlands these parking lots are not really about suburban neighbourhoods, but people visiting the city from elsewhere (either abroad or smaller towns and villages that do not have good public transportation). I made regular use of these facilities when I lived in a village where there was a bus every two hours (but not on sunday) and only in east and west directions, not to the large city in the north. In rural areas people are still quite dependent on cars here, and those people want to go to cities sometimes too. Entropist fucked around with this message at 13:23 on Apr 8, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 13:20
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smackfu posted:Also there is obviously no central planning in the states, so even if your city has a hard line on things, they just build in the next town over. In states with very large cities by area, there's usually barely any planning in the hastily cobbled together city limits. While in places like the Northeast, the surrounding but not part of the city suburbs tend to have more than enough local planning going on so as to make it impossible for those sorts of projects to remain locked out anywhere they'd be profitable. So like sure, it's really hard to escape Dallas planning control or whatever, but they barely exercise any control to begin with. In contrast, it's very easy to get out of Boston planning control, but unless you go quite a ways out all the inner towns are about as strict.
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Apr 8, 2016 15:00
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In Atlanta the outer counties didn't want MARTA (the subway/metro/whatever), but the MARTA stations at the very edge always have huge parking lots full of cars from the outer counties. 
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Apr 8, 2016 17:05
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So they want it, they just don't want to have to pay for it with taxes or have any responsibility towards it. The system works!
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Apr 8, 2016 18:49
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Entropist posted:In the Netherlands these parking lots are not really about suburban neighbourhoods, but people visiting the city from elsewhere (either abroad or smaller towns and villages that do not have good public transportation). I made regular use of these facilities when I lived in a village where there was a bus every two hours (but not on sunday) and only in east and west directions, not to the large city in the north. In rural areas people are still quite dependent on cars here, and those people want to go to cities sometimes too. That sounds pretty reasonable. In north america a lot of people expect huge disney-land size parking lots of free parking built in moderately dense suburban areas so everyone can drive to the station because other than the local commuter train there's no transit for miles and it's super unpleasant or outright dangerous to walk and the streets are a curvlinear mess of "hierarchy of roads" that double the distance you have to travel anyways. Then that same area will fight and resist anything like apartments or shops going up near their precious massive suburban parking lot and the commuter train service ends up being unreliable and low frequency because it doesn't have the critical mass of users so people just drive anyways and say "well, transit is just a waste of money"
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Apr 8, 2016 18:56
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Baronjutter posted:That sounds pretty reasonable. In north america a lot of people expect huge disney-land size parking lots of free parking built in moderately dense suburban areas so everyone can drive to the station because other than the local commuter train there's no transit for miles and it's super unpleasant or outright dangerous to walk and the streets are a curvlinear mess of "hierarchy of roads" that double the distance you have to travel anyways. Then that same area will fight and resist anything like apartments or shops going up near their precious massive suburban parking lot and the commuter train service ends up being unreliable and low frequency because it doesn't have the critical mass of users so people just drive anyways and say "well, transit is just a waste of money" Er, I'm not sure where you're talking about with this, but most places I've seen that actually have stations to drive to? Either there's a tiny parking lot jammed in that has waiting lists for spots in the years range, or there's a big multilevel parking garage for most of the parking, and an overflow lot to handle cars that can't fit and particularly big parking loads. Like here's a typical one that was opened in 1999 as an in-fill station to serve park-and-ride commuters: https://www.google.com/maps/place/4...1s0x0:0x0?hl=en The garage holds about 2600 vehicles, the surface parking only about 750. Incidentally it's about an hour travel out from where most of the riders are going to, NYC. fishmech fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Apr 10, 2016 |
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Apr 8, 2016 19:13
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Haifisch posted:So they want it, they just don't want to have to pay for it with taxes or have any responsibility towards it. The system works! While this is A factor, it's almost certainly not the main factor. Hint: A popular "joke" among rich white people in the northern suburbs is that MARTA stands for "Moving Africans Rapidly Through Atlanta"
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Apr 9, 2016 23:22
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Skeesix posted:While this is A factor, it's almost certainly not the main factor. 90% of the transportation emphasis in Florida right now is on new toll roads and HOT lanes, to supplement the future of self-driving automobiles, particularly for those rich white folk who are unable to see to drive around anymore or need to get where they're going even faster. Varance fucked around with this message at 04:40 on Apr 10, 2016 |
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Apr 10, 2016 04:31
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Which is pretty funny, since the highways will be below sea level before mass market self-driving cars actually happen. Maybe just above sea level if they're elevated from current ground level. 
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Apr 10, 2016 04:58
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fishmech posted:Which is pretty funny, since the highways will be below sea level before mass market self-driving cars actually happen. Maybe just above sea level if they're elevated from current ground level. ... which is the plan. :x https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvDM_aKextg
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Apr 10, 2016 05:04
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Varance posted:90% of the transportation emphasis in Florida right now is on new toll roads and HOT lanes, to supplement the future of self-driving automobiles, particularly for those rich white folk who are unable to see to drive around anymore or need to get where they're going even faster. And most of the remaining ten percent is completely hobbled by corrupt/inept management. The Miami metro lost federal funds for expansion when, iirc, they couldnt find what happened to the preliminary money that was given to them. And wont get anymore until they can.  Atleast theres All Aboard Florida... 
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Apr 10, 2016 05:24
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