|
Anidav posted:Is class warfare really at a stage where capitalists can chain your personal lifelong debt to your parents and significant other? Oh my sweet summer child.
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 08:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 05:35 |
|
|
KennyTheFish posted:I would love to see some numbers on the source of the "HELP bad debt blowout". how much of it is from universities, and how much from dodgy private VET providers? The PBO looked at the HECS-HELP debt recently, if you want some solid numbers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 08:55
|
|
|
I agree, those who do not study the holy STEM deserve to grovel in the gutter like the disgusting filth they are
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 08:56
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:There's education and there's education. If you knowingly spend the (mostly) Government's money doing a poorly paid degree, well what did you think would happen? Worse, imagine spending a few years of your life on a degree but never actually doing the research to see what it will likely pay. I know people who did exactly this and were surprised when no-one offered them six figures at the end of it. Why are you quoting US data?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 08:57
|
|
|
BBJoey posted:I agree, those who do not study the holy STEM deserve to grovel in the gutter like the disgusting filth they are Do you think everyone deserves to make good money for being educated, even if that education is 17th Century French Underwater Basket Weaving with a minor in My Little Pony: A Feminist Genderqueer Perspective
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 08:58
|
|
|
What is your definition of "good money"
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:01
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:Do you think everyone deserves to make good money for being educated, even if that education is 17th Century French Underwater Basket Weaving with a minor in My Little Pony: A Feminist Genderqueer Perspective Yes, don't you?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:03
|
|
|
Everyone deserves to make good money whether they're educated or not.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:05
|
|
|
If you don't want people to get certain degrees with government money then the solution is to not fund those degrees in the first place. Blanket changes to the rules so as to squeeze money from lower income people seems to not be a solution targeted at your stated problem.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:07
|
|
|
Expand tafe. Oh wait that would make education affordable
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:12
|
|
|
BBJoey posted:Yes, don't you? No, ideally people should get paid roughly in proportion to how much society values their skills, proportional to how many people already have those skills. Spending a decade earning a PhD in something useless probably won't help anyone but will drain societies resources in the process. I think I know what the fundamental mindset difference is between me and most of Auspol. I believe that the vast majority of Adults should be considered as rational human beings that should be allowed to take (informed) risks* if they desire, keep the payoff if they succeed, and wear the consequences if they fail. Yes people start with different circumstances but that's the luck of the draw. Some people are just Bastards and are still responsible for evil actions despite being abused as a child etc. This thread (mostly) seems to believe that the average adult should not be considered competent to shape their own destiny, and if they fail, it's not because they made stupid choices - it's because the government didn't stop them from making the stupid choice, or it's not fair that the stupid choice has consequences and the government should fix that. If someone does Bad Things it's because of society and they just need to be rehabilitated with no punishment. People must be protected from themselves and should not be judged competent to evaluate risk. (*risks that involve themselves, not random people, before someone jumps on me for allowing people to build nukes they're pretty sure won't go off in their apartment). Higsian I agree with you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:13
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:Do you think everyone deserves to make good money for being educated, even if that education is 17th Century French Underwater Basket Weaving with a minor in My Little Pony: A Feminist Genderqueer Perspective Engineer or IT worker?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:15
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:No, ideally people should get paid roughly in proportion to how much society values their skills, proportional to how many people already have those skills. Spending a decade earning a PhD in something useless probably won't help anyone but will drain societies resources in the process. They're not taking informed risks though. The whole point is that they are uninformed which is why dodgy private colleges can make so much money so easily. Besides, education should be about more than making money. The only reason people who work in IT or engineering are in demand is because people need networks to download artistic content, and roads and bridges to see it live. open24hours fucked around with this message at 09:22 on Apr 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:18
|
|
|
WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Engineer or IT worker? I'll put 5 galtbucks on IT
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:18
|
|
|
open24hours posted:They're not taking informed risks though. The whole point is that they are uninformed which is why dodgy private colleges can make so much money so easily. Reputation agencies could provide everyone with perfect market information and make them informed if statists would stop distorting the market.  Jonah Galtberg posted:I'll put 5 galtbucks on IT My bitcoin's on engineer.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:20
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:No, ideally people should get paid roughly in proportion to how much society values their skills, No, actually, ideally all people should be paid a liveable wage. I hope this helps you. e: hard to say it I'm leaning engineer
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:21
|
|
|
WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Engineer or IT worker? Heh. TBH you are pretty close to the mark. In turn, how many of you are on Centrelink?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:23
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:No, ideally people should get paid roughly in proportion to how much society values their skills, proportional to how many people already have those skills. Spending a decade earning a PhD in something useless probably won't help anyone but will drain societies resources in the process. Soo gently caress You Got Mine then
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:23
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:No, ideally people should get paid roughly in proportion to how much society values their skills Argumentum ad populum, a logical fallacy, and retarded to boot. Garbageman strike starts Monday, ends Friday with garbagemen there most highly paid worked in the country. Politicians now even more corrupt because society votes that they receive very little pay. Maybe if you had a liberal arts degree you wouldn't be suggesting such a vapid policy. E: lol I just read the rest of your post. You think people are rational. Way to proceed from false premises, stupid.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:24
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:Heh. TBH you are pretty close to the mark. I'm not on Centrelink and I make good money, but even if I was and I didn't, it's not like I'm the only person to hold views like that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:25
|
|
|
We both know you removed the second part "proportional to how many people already have those skills" because it shoots your argument down in flames. There are a lot of people who could collect rubbish. You would have to get all of them on strike at once. I don't think everyone is rational but we should treat Adults if they are. A Nanny State raises Children.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:26
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:Heh. TBH you are pretty close to the mark. how many figgies you make, kid
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:27
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:In turn, how many of you are on Centrelink?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:28
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:We both know you removed the second part "proportional to how many people already have those skills" because it shoots your argument down in flames. There are a lot of people who could collect rubbish. You would have to get all of them on strike at once. Or they could blockade/occupy the truck depots and stop scabs from taking the work? It's almost as if there are tactics that have been developed to avoid this problem  Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_of_Discontent
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:28
|
|
|
BBJoey posted:how many figgies you make, kid Don't misinterpret me. I'm not looking down on people who earn Minimum wage. It just seems like Welfare Recipients are overrepresented in this thread.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:29
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:We both know you removed the second part "proportional to how many people already have those skills" because it shoots your argument down in flames. There are a lot of people who could collect rubbish. You would have to get all of them on strike at once. I'm going to take a guess and say you're not exactly in favour of unions and collective bargaining. LibertyCat posted:In turn, how many of you are on Centrelink? Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Apr 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:29
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:We both know you removed the second part "proportional to how many people already have those skills" because it shoots your argument down in flames. There are a lot of people who could collect rubbish. You would have to get all of them on strike at once. Can you point to a society that operates the way you would like it to? It can be either current or historical.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:29
|
|
|
Pickled Tink posted:I'm on centrelink, but not if your "Blood for Payments" policy gets implemented. Are you going to answer any of the criticisms of that, by the way? Or are you just going to quietly drop it without retracting it like the brain fart it was? If the policy encourages more people to enter the workforce - isn't that a success?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:30
|
|
|
.
BBJoey fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Apr 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:31
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:Do you think everyone deserves to make good money for being educated, even if that education is 17th Century French Underwater Basket Weaving with a minor in My Little Pony: A Feminist Genderqueer Perspective You're reducing the argument to absurdity here. There are a couple of points I'd like to make: Young Australians interested in STEM fields were heavily encouraged to go into Mining Engineering up until recently. Is it their fault that their degrees are now useless in the face of a shrinking mining industry? How can young people be expected to future-proof their educational choices when the Government can't even predict what will be in demand when you get out? What the Americans would call "Liberal Arts" degrees, while they're not vocational degrees, are not useless, and nor do they necessarily lead to a life of unemployment. They impart critical thinking skills (important if you want good problem solvers in your workplace), written and oral communication abilities (which is important in pmuch any workplace as well), not to mention cultural awareness. These skills are valued by employers. I also disagree with the premise that your choice in education should be predicated on the amount of money it will earn you. If everyone made their choice based on that, we'd have hardly any teachers or nurses. It's hardly their fault that they're not being paid enough to pay HECS.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:31
|
|
|
Doctor Spaceman posted:I'm going to take a guess and say you're not exactly in favour of unions and collective bargaining. I'm all for individuals having the freedom to form unions. I'm against them having the strength to say "if you don't fire all the non-union employees we'll cripple your business" as this interferes with the freedom of people to Not form Unions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:32
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:Do you think everyone deserves to make good money for being educated, even if that education is 17th Century French Underwater Basket Weaving with a minor in My Little Pony: A Feminist Genderqueer Perspective If I were hiring for a job, I would absolutely hire someone like that over someone with a more 'typical' degree. Those people can also provide some important input to a workplace that yet another engineer/accountant/whatever wouldn't. I've got a degree in writing, which is probably what you'd point at as one of the useless ones if you weren't making up strawman degrees to poo poo on instead. And yet right now, I work as a technical writer for a software development team in Melbourne. Because as good as they are at what they do, they struggled to write documentation about it; not just because it wasn't their expertise, but because they're too close to the thing's inner workings to explain it to laymen. Last year I got picked up for a bit of work as a tester, where that same degree was actually an advantage for me because it highlighted skills and expertise that would be useful that others didn't have. I'd ask 'who are you to determine what degrees are or are not worthwhile', but ironically, if you HAD a good answer for that you would actually have even less reason to hold that viewpoint.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:32
|
|
|
Man, business owners are going to be pissed when it turns out they're not entitled to any more remuneration than a garbo.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:33
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:I'm all for individuals having the freedom to form unions. I'm against them having the strength to say "if you don't fire all the non-union employees we'll cripple your business" as this interferes with the freedom of people to Not form Unions. Doesn't the employer refusing to fire non-union workers infringe on the rights of those who are unionised in exactly the same way? "Yeah you can have a union, but you can't actually do anything with it."
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:33
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:I'm all for individuals having the freedom to form unions. I'm against them having the strength to say "if you don't fire all the non-union employees we'll cripple your business" as this interferes with the freedom of people to Not form Unions. who are you to interfere with the freedom of unions to say "if you don't fire all the non-union employees we'll cripple your business"?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:36
|
|
|
LibertyCat posted:Don't misinterpret me. I'm not looking down on people who earn Minimum wage. It just seems like Welfare Recipients are overrepresented in this thread. Dead wrong, most of us work. The reason nobody agrees with your is because your education is poor. e: Let me give you an example. I'm currently working for an auxiliary adjunct to the police. That is, we're a private enterprise which does services for the police which help them do their job. My boss has a degree in business. She thinks that because of the amount of crimes she sees come out of multicultural areas of Sydney that this means there's a lot of crime, proportionately, in those areas. I blew her mind wide open when I told her what the statistics reveal - the crime is actually higher per 100k capita in rural areas than in those areas. Statistically, you're more likely to get raped in a country town than in the most rapey part of Sydney, and also more likely to be a victim of murder. But because of the higher concentration of people in metropolitan areas compared to rural areas, a poorly educated person like her comes to the conclusion that you're more likely to be a victim in, say, Canterbury City Council region than in Wagga Wagga Shire. A social scientist would look at the facts and say "poverty causes crime, not brown skin", but somebody whose background is in engineering or IT or business just can't think scientifically or sociologically, because they're not trained to think broadly or logically. Moreover, the wisest among us realise how little we know, while the least wise believe they know all. You are the latter. I hope this helps you overcome your over-inflated sense of self-worth, you plod. BlitzkriegOfColour fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Apr 9, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:37
|
|
|
Mithranderp posted:Young Australians interested in STEM fields were heavily encouraged to go into Mining Engineering up until recently. Is it their fault that their degrees are now useless in the face of a shrinking mining industry? How can young people be expected to future-proof their educational choices when the Government can't even predict what will be in demand when you get out? This is a good example of the fundamental difference between our viewpoints. They took a risk. It went well for some, not others. It's no-ones fault that mining is no longer bringing in the big bucks. Life has risks. I remember at the time seeing people paid 6 figures to hose down trucks and thinking "only an idiot wouldn't realize this is a bubble that's eventually going to burst". When HoseMan got replaced with a water-squirting frame that trucks drove through, I wasn't surprised. Hopefully if you followed the Gold Rush you got a few years of excellent money and didn't piss it all away. You'd have a pretty healthy bank account while you retrained. Contrast this to someone doing a course that statistically will pay extremely poorly. They made a dumb decision financially that had a miniscule chance of a good payoff. You wouldn't spend your life savings betting on a hose thats come last every race but they did it anyway. quote:What the Americans would call "Liberal Arts" degrees, while they're not vocational degrees, are not useless, and nor do they necessarily lead to a life of unemployment. They impart critical thinking skills (important if you want good problem solvers in your workplace), written and oral communication abilities (which is important in pmuch any workplace as well), not to mention cultural awareness. These skills are valued by employers. You quoted HuffPo, which is like me linking the IPA, but anyway - I'm not going to deny they bring some useful skills. 10 minutes of research should give a typical high-school student an idea that these courses still pay fairly badly on average. quote:I also disagree with the premise that your choice in education should be predicated on the amount of money it will earn you. If everyone made their choice based on that, we'd have hardly any teachers or nurses. It's hardly their fault that they're not being paid enough to pay HECS. Teachers and Nurses are paid what they are because we can and still have enough of them. If people stopped signing up for nursing due to low pay in an ideal world the pay will rise. Of course what would probably happen we'd import low-paid Nurses from overseas - I would support blocking this as it artificially depresses local wages.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:45
|
|
|
As fun as this is I have stuff to do atm. See you tomorrow thread.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:47
|
|
|
Hey guys, what voice do you have in your head when you read LC posts?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 05:35 |
|
|
Do you support banning the outsourcing of other types of work as well? Not very liberal.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2016 09:48
|
|