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The rest of what you said is like, bog standard racist moralising also.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:40
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drilldo squirt posted:I don't think you know modern middle east history well enough if you really believe this. To actually say that they don't want democracy is insane on its face considering how many democracies "western civilisation" have overthrown or prevented there. Hehe. So what prevents the Libyans from putting down their arms, having a democratic vote, and then respect it? The assumption by most (American) liberals is, as is yours, that having a different opinion means one isn't familiar with the history or the conditions of place X. I can understand that when your educational standards are so low but believe me, most Europeans interested in the subject have been reading about African or Middle-Eastern politics and history for quite a while. The run of the mill racis' will be like "dahh they don't know anything else" but by far not everyone is like that. USA has a pretty bad track record for supporting actual democracies to be sure but you can only blame outside sources for the failings of the Arab Spring and thus for for that long. I'll ask again, do you think if Russia or USA would topple the Swedish, the Danish or whatever government next week it would result in the locals dividing into tribal factions and then start to kill each other? Do you actually believe that?
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Apr 11, 2016 21:47
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Ligur posted:Hehe. So what prevents the Libyans from putting down their arms, having a democratic vote, and then respect it?
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Apr 11, 2016 21:51
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Ligur posted:Hehe. So what prevents the Libyans from putting down their arms, having a democratic vote, and then respect it? What about a fear that the losing party will be purged by the winner, in revenge for actions taken during the war. Regime transitions on a peaceful basis don't work unless all sides can be guaranteed credible immunity from each other.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:53
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If you really don't think europeans are exactly the same as everyone else I don't know what to tell you except maybe read about the world wars.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:53
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drilldo squirt posted:If you really don't think europeans are exactly the same as everyone else I don't know what to tell you except maybe read about the world wars. Hm, yes, the noble savages of the world never engaged in warfare, and never utilized industrial forms of warfare once they obtained the means to sustain them. You are kind of racist, man.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:56
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drilldo squirt posted:The world is a lot more complicated than you think and your examples are the kinds of things a child would come up with. Sweden and libya are different in many ways besides the culture of the people that live there.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:57
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steinrokkan posted:What about a fear that the losing party will be purged by the winner, in revenge for actions taken during the war. Regime transitions on a peaceful basis don't work unless all sides can be guaranteed credible immunity from each other. Yes, you exactly proved my point right here. Please do not be so stupid you don't see it.
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Apr 11, 2016 21:58
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steinrokkan posted:Hm, yes, the noble savages of the world never engaged in warfare, and never utilized industrial forms of warfare once they obtained the means to sustain them. I don't see how you got this out of what I said, can you walk me through it please?
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Apr 11, 2016 22:00
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Ligur posted:Yes, you exactly proved my point right here. It doesn't mean they don't want democracy (at least a plurality of Libyans, I'd wager), it means the configuration of actors is too charged to permit democracy in practice. Question is, can it be defused by external assistance?
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Apr 11, 2016 22:02
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Ligur posted:Yes, you exactly proved my point right here. drilldo squirt posted:I don't see how you got this out of what I said, can you walk me through it please?
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Apr 11, 2016 22:02
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Pizdec posted:I fully admit to not knowing poo poo about the subject, so I really would like some examples of those Arab democracies stifled by the US you mentioned. I know that the Ottoman Empire was becoming more liberal in its death throes, but we'd need something more recent than the 20s. I'm not surprised you don't know poo poo but I'm not here to educate you.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:02
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drilldo squirt posted:I don't see how you got this out of what I said, can you walk me through it please? I took it that world wars were a proof of the Europeans being somehow uniquely warlike.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:03
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yugoslavia. Case in point, they needed to shatter the nation to find some semblance of piece. Exactly what I meant.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:05
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steinrokkan posted:I took it that world wars were a proof of the Europeans being somehow uniquely warlike. I don't think you read my posts right.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:06
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drilldo squirt posted:I don't think you read my posts right. Ha, I missed the "don't" in your post, which kinda flipped the meaning. Apologies. 
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Apr 11, 2016 22:11
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Thank you.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:13
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Ligur posted:Case in point, they needed to shatter the nation to find some semblance of piece. Exactly what I meant. Can you explain what you mean better? I can't see what your point is.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:14
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drilldo squirt posted:I'm not surprised you don't know poo poo but I'm not here to educate you.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:16
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drilldo squirt posted:Can you explain what you mean better? I can't see what your point is. It was a multiethnic, multireligious European country, multicultural as some would say. They couldn't get along and started a violent war and broke up into several smaller states which mostly comprise of people from a single ethnic or religious group, not several ones. I can't believe you, the Historian who insults others, is not aware of this.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:19
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Syria and Iran come to mind but I really don't want to look for more examples so google it.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:21
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Ligur posted:It was a multiethnic, multireligious European country, multicultural as some would say. They couldn't get along and started a violent war and broke up into several smaller states which mostly comprise of people from a single ethnic or religious group, not several ones. And yet, multiethnicism is more the rule, historically. If we start from Jeanne d'Arc as the beginning of French national identity, France has been a multiethnic state for longer than a nominally monoethnic one, and more stable too.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:21
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Ligur posted:It was a multiethnic, multireligious European country, multicultural as some would say. They couldn't get along and started a violent war and broke up into several smaller states which mostly comprise of people from a single ethnic or religious group, not several ones. I don't understand what you are trying to say by bringing this up.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:23
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Then you are a fool who has not followed the conversation. There is nothing more I can say unto thee.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:24
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Ligur posted:Then you are a fool who has not followed the conversation. Humor me please, because I think I see what you are getting at but I don't understand why you just don't come out and say it.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:26
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drilldo squirt posted:I haven't seen a European on here that doesn't hate gypsies. FWIW I fully respect and support the Roma, and have absolutely no known ancestors of the Roma people (so no cause of bias towards). Ligur posted:Case in point, they needed to shatter the nation to find some semblance of piece. Exactly what I meant. This is one of those times where the misspelling makes a good pun. And for punakone's sake this is not me insulting the speaker's English capability as natives make this same homophone switch probably more commonly than foreign speakers.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:26
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To claim that the Yugo-war had nothing to do with various ethnic or religious groups is completely bonkers.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:29
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France when it was divided into Occitans, Burgundians, Alsatians, Bretons, Provençals: Great continental power. France when it was all French: goes through 11 forms of government in a century.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:29
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That is the same in 2016, you think?
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Apr 11, 2016 22:31
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Ligur posted:To claim that the Yugo-war had nothing to do with various ethnic or religious groups is completely bonkers. I'm not sure how we got here from you saying middle easterners don't want democracy, hell I don't even remember someone disagreeing with you on this. But yugoslavia is a really good example if you want to point out europeans are no different than anyone else, so I guess it proves my point instead.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:36
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Ligur posted:That is the same in 2016, you think? Well, thankfully France has abandoned the foolish, suppurating path of being monoethnic and monocultural.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:37
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drilldo squirt posted:I'm not sure how we got here from you saying middle easterners don't want democracy, hell I don't even remember someone disagreeing with you on this. But yugoslavia is a really good example if you want to point out europeans are no different than anyone else, so I guess it proves my point instead. The Yugos didn't want to hang out with each other. They needed guns to resolve this. Which they did. Much like in the Middle-East or North-Africa. The Swedish-Finns and Samis in Finland can manage without that. I never said Europeans are that much different though, I said they have already established Nation States more often and don't need guns and killing to choose their leaders. This isn't true in the places mentioned earlier eg North-Africa and so on. Or do you disagree?
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Apr 11, 2016 22:39
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Brainiac Five posted:And yet, multiethnicism is more the rule, historically. If we start from Jeanne d'Arc as the beginning of French national identity, France has been a multiethnic state for longer than a nominally monoethnic one, and more stable too. Reminds me of when Stewart Lee made fun of UKIP for the idea that Britain is a pure monoculture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMhWB95ldQ
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Apr 11, 2016 22:39
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Pizdec posted:I fully admit to not knowing poo poo about the subject, so I really would like some examples of those Arab democracies stifled by the US you mentioned. I know that the Ottoman Empire was becoming more liberal in its death throes, but we'd need something more recent than the 20s. The US were directly involved with overthrowing democratic governments in Syria in 1949 and Iran in 1953. In addition the US have been and still are propping up various dictatorships in the Middle East, the foremost examples of which would be Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan and Iran prior to 1979.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:43
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Cerebral Bore posted:The US were directly involved with overthrowing democratic governments in Syria in 1949 and Iran in 1953. In addition the US have been and still are propping up various dictatorships in the Middle East, the foremost examples of which would be Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan and Iran prior to 1979. Also financed and trained the Mujihadeen who would later repay the favour by bombing the WTC in 1993 and 2001.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:47
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Ligur posted:The Yugos didn't want to hang out with each other. They needed guns to resolve this. Which they did. Much like in the Middle-East or North-Africa. I disagree that you never said europeans are that much different. I mean you explicitly said that middle easterners don't want western democracy and said that they need fascist dictators to function. The rest of this is only tangentially related to what you said and hides the details of your explicit belief.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:51
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Cerebral Bore posted:The US were directly involved with overthrowing democratic governments in Syria in 1949 and Iran in 1953. In addition the US have been and still are propping up various dictatorships in the Middle East, the foremost examples of which would be Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan and Iran prior to 1979.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:53
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Then you read too much between the lines. Europeans in their current nation states can get along get pretty fine. As witnessed by the fact that they are. Or do you disagree? Are the Danes killing each other over political power? North-Africans can not get along, without some oppressive power which enforces a sort of "peace". If you shove in a Yugo-situation in here, Europe, then you get Yugoslav war. For example in the Middle-East, if you give the Shia or the Kurds their own nation instead of spreading them all over the place with various factions...you would have much less trouble. Or are you saying the Shia and the Sunni get along swimmingly? All in all you don't understand what I'm posting about, at all, is what it sounds like. And fail to understand what I type when you ask questions. Perhaps you should stop, then. Unless you can answer why the Norwegians are not cutting each others throats. But you won't do that, will you?
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Apr 11, 2016 22:58
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Ligur posted:As for the Middle-East or Africa, they don't have mostly monocultural nation states like Europe by and large. While Nation states in Europe are diverse in a way, the people living there share some common feeling of pulling ont he same rope at least on some level and don't require shooting each other up to resolve who has political power but utilize stuff like democratic voting system (however faulty it can be, and I know some lefties will deny this is happening at all, but they are wrong, as witnessed by magic things like Welfare States). I think you'll find the root of this has more to do with institutional capacity and rates of human development, than it does with monocultural identities. The reason why citizens identify stronger with their national institutions than their tribal and traditional practices is because identifying with those institutions provides for more opportunities and less barriers as one navigates their ambitions in life.
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Apr 11, 2016 23:03
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My Imaginary GF posted:I think you'll find the root of this has more to do with institutional capacity and rates of human development, than it does with monocultural identities. Yes I would agree with this opinion. IMO this poster is pretty much of the correct stance.
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Apr 11, 2016 23:07
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