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net cafe scandal posted:Can someone with thick skin very delicately explain to me what happened to Lord English.  We saw Caliborn close his chest after using his juju, become unconditionally immortal by destroying his death clock thing, and then gain weird clockwork majyyks cherubs can use. He should be met almost immediately after the anime by the 8 kids trying and failing to retcon-defeat him Later, Lord English is about to be met, and defeated but not killed, by the group entering via lilypad-door, which was linked to the juju-door.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:23
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| # ? May 24, 2024 11:53 |
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WAMPA_STOMPA posted:yeah but its a postmodern and borderline self-aware story and the line "people don't have arcs" came from the character whos personality is closest to the author so i think it deserves to be taken seriously The characters aren't people. They're characters in a story. People read the story, and look for the satisfying conclusions they will never have in their own life. In a comic where a highlight is drawing dicks in the book of said authority, it really undermines their words.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:24
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Haha a few days ago I was joking about how I knew the "mystery" of Dad would go unresolved Little did I know that wouldn't even register in my list of complaints
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Apr 13, 2016 07:24
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Yeah, the ending was kinda disappointing, but Jesus Christ my room is flooding with the salt coming out of this thread. Like, I'm trying to stay above the tide and make this post, but leaving my laptop open is just causing more salt to cascade out. I get it. Each and every one of you, save like two or three people, hates this ending with a burning passion, but there's only so many ways you can say "I hate this" before it gets tired. It's one. You can say "I hate this" once and I'll understand and accept it. Every other time each of you say it, the salt gets a little bit deeper in here, and I think I'm gonna suffocate soon. Please. At least for a poor lurker's sake. Keep the salt to at least Karkat levels instead of Boiling Surface of the Sun levels. EDIT: Of course by the time I got this thing posted most people moved on to actual debates over specific points instead of just blind rage. Oblivion4568238 fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 07:24
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I'm not sure that I'd call Undertale "better Homestuck" so much as it's what Homestuck could have been with a lot of editing. Or to put it another way, it's what Homestuck could have been if it wasn't Homestuck. Like, for better or for worse, the whole idea behind Homestuck was that it was a completely unedited first draft from day one. Plot beats and characters were going to be introduced and then dropped, plot threads were going to be left hanging, characters were going to be getting development without necessarily having a resolution for them in mind. That's all the stuff that would have been taken care of with editing, which was pretty explicitly not part of the Homestuck creation process. Like, I even remember Andrew's old Formspring saying something like "yeah, i have no idea where exactly this train is going or what it's going to be like when we get there, but you're welcome to join me on the ride if you want". Flying by the seat of his pants has always been how this thing was going to go down, even if it'd be an objectively better story with a fuckton of editing. And you know, the more I look at it under that lens, the more okay I am with the ending. Like yeah, from an objective story construction standpoint, it still sucks and doesn't resolve nearly enough that was left open, but first drafts almost always suck before revision. EDIT: And goddamn the thread's already moved on from Undertale talk, but OH WELL. Griptape fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 07:24
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This was so insanely loving good.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:25
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WAMPA_STOMPA posted:yeah but its a postmodern and borderline self-aware story and the line "people don't have arcs" came from the character whos personality is closest to the author so i think it deserves to be taken seriously If you're saying that a surrogate for a bad author is trying to justify his failure to tell satisfying stories for his characters rather than just ascribing character straights to them and them bashing them against each other Then agreed completely
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Apr 13, 2016 07:25
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Not to kick the thread while it's down, but seems like BKEW won his bet.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:26
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I haven't been keeping up with Homestuck for years so I skimmed the last year of updates, got a vague idea of the setting, watched the flash, then came to this thread because I'm guessing people here will know what went on? Can someone help me out and explain again the significance of the frog (birth of a new universe?) and the green sun (wasn't that the source of Lord English's power, and destroying it would cut him off? I guess it didn't shut off though because of...calliope? or something? and was reborn) What was Arenea doing there? What's the deal with Caliborn at the end? Also does anyone remember what jujus were? some kind of...time-spanning item that absorbed...stuff? God, I can't remember anything.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:26
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The squiddle horrorterror flash was really awesome as well. I remember taking a crap with my 13" MacBook Pro on my lap watching that one and I couldnt believe what I was seeing.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:26
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WAR FOOT posted:The characters aren't people. They're characters in a story. People read the story, and look for the satisfying conclusions they will never have in their own life. In a comic where a highlight is drawing dicks in the book of said authority, it really undermines their words. Well perhaps your need for a neat conclusion is actually a product of your expectations and not a failing of the author? its been clear since gamzee killed half the troll population that this isn't really a story about fulfilling narrative arcs of personal development
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Apr 13, 2016 07:26
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As the person who made this thread and most of the other MSPaint adventure threads, I thought this ending was a lesson in mediocrity--not incredible, not terrible--and relying far too much on the reader remembering everything despite year long breaks. He'd already told us how the story would end literally a year ago in a claymation series, and he filled out the rest of the details necessary later. I was watching to see if he'd replay that in the main POV, trying to connect it together to the story we were watching, or if he'd assume it was enough to rely on the retcon powers and juju explanations. He assumed it was enough, which I think was the wrong choice, but whatever. Three major plot things happen here. 1. The frog seeds a new universe. The kids use the door. We get a flash forward to their happy ending on the Earth that Jade resurrects. None of this matters to the rest of what happens below. 2. Calliope absorbs the green sun and most of the outer ring and LE powers down, losing his aura and his eyes finally turning to 8 balls instead of every other color. This makes him defeatable. The juju is dropped by Vriska, and out of it will come copies of the alpha kids, who along with Vriska and the ghosts will slay him. What happens after that sincerely doesn't matter to the ending, because you're supposed to just assume LE is defeated when he powers down and gets death eyeballs. 3. Caliborn gains his clockwork magic powers by shattering the clock that tracks his death. Immediately after this, Caliborn's claymation events will happen. A couple of questions people asked me. Where do the kids come from in that claymation? Do they come from the kids using the door in Act 7? God no, the answer was literally retcon powers. I'm not making this up, I'm not stretching to interpret this. Caliborn flat out tells you they come in using John's retcon powers. http://www.mspaintadventures.com/ACT6ACT6.php?s=6&p=009318 The kids are literally retconned into fighting Caliborn at that moment (meaning there is no other cause, you won't find one in the comic, and Hussie didn't decide to supply one). The alpha kids that were retconned in get trapped in the juju. The beta kids trap him inside Lil Cal, who seeds the creation of Doc Scratch, who becomes Lord English properly. Later, this juju will be used by Vriska to bring about the end of LE off screen, after the events of plot point #2. This didn't seem complex to me because I'd reread Caliborn's claymation garbage only a couple days before, but Hussie was expecting waaaay too much out of most people if he thought they were going to put together through implication what he should've spelled out and shown us in panel and word. So I think the ending is coherent, and I think it's mediocre, and I don't think it ruined Homestuck or any of that jazz.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:27
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The best flash is Ascend: Jack because it has best song Black in it. net cafe scandal posted:The squiddle horrorterror flash was really awesome as well. I remember taking a crap with my 13" MacBook Pro on my lap watching that one and I couldnt believe what I was seeing. That big Horrorterror image was my desktop image AND twitter background for a long time, even after I kinda stopped caring about Homestuck.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:28
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Oblivion4568238 posted:Yeah, the ending was kinda disappointing, but Jesus Christ my room is flooding with the salt coming out of this thread. i think it's less "the same people" and more "every person who sees it for the first time needs to come in and vent" maybe it's supposed to be deep or meta but the result of that last ==> was such a wildly infuriating cocktease that i'm not even sure what to say to it undertale really was the better homestuck
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Apr 13, 2016 07:29
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bkew is alive, but I don't know if you can truly call it life
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Apr 13, 2016 07:29
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God drat Zooloo, you basically answered every question. Thanks! I forgot completely about the claymation stuff.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:30
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tentative8e8op posted::speculationemoji: This would make sense. He opens the door and finds the kids. Their clay battle happens and he get's stuck in the doll. Way later the kids are released from the house juju-thing and smack-down a now powerless LE. The loop is now complete and they can go enjoy life on the new earth. Works well enough for me. Really needs an epilogue to wrap up some of the loose ends though (Which I'm like 98% sure we'll get).
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Apr 13, 2016 07:30
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^^^^Wait, that doesn't make sense. John retcons them to battle Caliborn, and it happens definitively before they battle Lord English if they're contained in the icon. They can't appear there by going through the door.Thundarr posted:Hello again Homestuck thread. It's been a long time. I briefly forgot that we have the same avatar and thought you were me, and that I had become possessed and written a post without remembering it. Your interpretation is extremely and depressingly valid and one of the only natural conclusions to be drawn from Homestuck. Undertale did some revolutionary storytelling by having different playthroughs remember and judge your actions in the others, but Homestuck has upped the ante by having its villain combat the author directly and win. The weird disconnects in the ending like why the kids would warp to Caliborn instead of going through the door convince me the timeline is basically broken, even if they're the result of author oversight or error or Hussie comes along later to claim that's not what he intended. It's Death of the Author time, Hussie invited it by presenting a  ending and also killing himself.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:30
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:i think it's less "the same people" and more "every person who sees it for the first time needs to come in and vent" Counterpoint: Daius, WARFOOT, probably a bunch of others??? Ursine Catastrophe posted:undertale really was the better homestuck No objections there.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:31
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Zoolooman posted:As the person who made this thread and most of the other MSPaint adventure threads, I thought this ending was a lesson in mediocrity--not incredible, not terrible--and relying far too much on the reader remembering everything despite year long breaks. So what, John retcons a duplicate set of kids there to do that? Because don't we see the alpha in the happy ending?
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Apr 13, 2016 07:32
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Hi Zoolooman
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Apr 13, 2016 07:33
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Don't read this. I need to vent. Seriously, it's loving ridiculous. Act 1 to EOA5 may have been one of my favorite media things I've ever experienced, from the clever jokes about game mechanics, to the slow deconstruction of what it would be like to be an RPG protagonist. I loved, loved everything about the ways the players approached this labyrinthinely complex game, from John's goodnatured attempts at proper progression, to Rose's attempt to glitch the game's programming, to Dave's exploitation of the in game economy. I loved the idea of god tiers, of really loving awesome destinies being predetermined. I loved the entire goddamn idea of a universe creation game, of the implications of such. I absolutely loving adored the idea of a game character breaking everything around him, and I thought Jack was an incredible villain. I liked the trolls; I liked the way that they were just a tad bit alien, and that they created our world and that's why there were such similarities yet such differences. I liked their interactions with the cast: 4 people really wasn't enough for the grand story to work. I liked the slow dissolution of their camaraderie, the character drama and infighting that karmically led to their tragic inability to "win". I found them charming, interesting, a good foil to the bewildered human kids. I thought Cascade was worth it. It's with this background that I can say that I utterly despised act 6, not just for what it was, but for what it could have been. Jack was a terrifying villain, but PM had a way to fight him! There's the mysterious lord english in the background, that no one knows anything about other than his incredible powers. There's Doc Scratch, the Satan-lackey to Lord English's demiurge, and above it all is this incredible game that creates and is created by universes in an endless cycle. And he hosed it up. He hosed it up by trying to retell the same story with different characters, with teen drama instead of humorous video game antics. He hosed it up by ruining the mystique of Jack and Lord English, by reducing Jack to a dog and English to an overgrown child. He hosed it up by adding the condesce at all, when there was already a trio of incredible villains. He hosed it up, and it's because of what the story could have been that I'm so utterly drained by all of this.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:33
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Zoolooman posted:As the person who made this thread and most of the other MSPaint adventure threads, I thought this ending was a lesson in mediocrity--not incredible, not terrible--and relying far too much on the reader remembering everything despite year long breaks. I think you're right, and I'm enjoying and understanding the ending here well enough, but confusion regarding Caliborn's stuff is understandable too. I only read it like a week ago and I was already misremembering some things about it.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:34
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The ending of Homestuck is they make Can Town and then live in it.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:34
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Zoolooman posted:The kids are literally retconned into fighting Caliborn at that moment (meaning there is no other cause, you won't find one in the comic, and Hussie didn't decide to supply one). this raises the problem that John apparently has his hand on the doorknob leading to the ultimate prize, stops, says "actually lets not win just yet and go kick Caliborns rear end for some reason" there seems to be no reason to do that. who cares what the little green prick is doing - Vriska has that angle sewed up and theyre inches from being able to get on with their lives.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:34
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readingatwork posted:This would make sense. He opens the door and finds the kids. Their clay battle happens and he get's stuck in the doll. Way later the kids are released from the house juju-thing and smack-down a now powerless LE. The loop is now complete and they can go enjoy life on the new earth. No, the kids go via lilypad-door to juju-door, fight LE, and then zap to Caliborn and lose by becoming stuck in homestuck
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Apr 13, 2016 07:34
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AriadneThread posted:he bet someone a hundred dollars one of his theories would be explicitly confirmed before the end AR being part of Lord English. He predicted that one. The comic even called out that he'd predicted it! Dolash posted:
Uh, no. They go through. They live in their new universe for literally billions of years - the star they put Earth around is in its end stages. Then the Caliborn poo poo happens, they follow him into his session, and after he achieves true immortality, after the end of the stuff we see of young Caliborn in the comic, fight him. Then they are stuck in the thing.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:34
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WAR FOOT posted:People read the story, and look for the satisfying conclusions they will never have in their own life. That's not even remotely true.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:35
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My thoughts on Act 7: We know that Hussie can churn out dialog. He could have filled up 50 pages of exposition and witty conversation without much trouble. But he didn't. Instead, he went to a great effort, apparently over three years, of putting together a technically gorgeous (and I haven't read any posts in here that debate the fact that the Act 7 animation was a work of art) but ambiguous epilog. So he went to a lot of effort to make this. This was a very deliberate decision, something that took a lot of effort, and certainly can't be attributed to burnout. This means something. This was planned out and executed with effort. It might be a bad artistic choice, but we can't doubt that it was some sort of artistic choice.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:35
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Zoolooman posted:This didn't seem complex to me because I'd reread Caliborn's claymation garbage only a couple days before, but Hussie was expecting waaaay too much out of most people if he thought they were going to put together through implication what he should've spelled out and shown us in panel and word. So I think the ending is coherent, and I think it's mediocre, and I don't think it ruined Homestuck or any of that jazz. Not going to lie, I got it but given the nature of the claymation and the heavy dose of "unreliable narrator", I wasn't expecting that to be the sole source of information, and I really doubt anyone else was either. Which is why this ending comes with such an abrupt, cut-off feeling-- it's like having an actor describe Chekov's Gun going off and you say "oh, well, this couldn't end before we actually see that", and then the play just ends. And then the playwrights says "yeah, it fired, that actor told you about it, remember?"
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Apr 13, 2016 07:35
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Oblivion4568238 posted:Counterpoint: Daius, WARFOOT, probably a bunch of others??? not gonna lie man i just got here and i'm not backscrolling through 2k posts while it's still tviving, so i'll take your word for it :V
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Apr 13, 2016 07:36
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At no point are we told why LE has green sun powers. I guess we just have to assume they weee part of the reward for killing his denizen, but like a lot of things it seems rather eh. Also eight balls were always part of LE's eye rotation, and I assumed he was just about to unleash unholy terror when he set them to black. He didn't give a weird look like "What happened?" or "oh poo poo." but more like "I'm gonna really gently caress you all up now." Just to nitpick the otherwise good animation.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:36
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So, they left comments enabled on the YouTube video. That was a mistake.WAMPA_STOMPA posted:Well perhaps your need for a neat conclusion is actually a product of your expectations and not a failing of the author? its been clear since gamzee killed half the troll population that this isn't really a story about fulfilling narrative arcs of personal development Characters dying =/= narrative failing. You're meant to feel pathos in those situations, partially because those characters DID die with their journies incomplete. Usually, this is not what you're meant to feel when a story ends and everyone goes their separate ways. If you want to explore metatextual narrative by subverting this, DBZ With More Shipping is probably not the place.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:36
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hussie news post posted:The animation itself had a fairly complicated production history. I actually storyboarded it about four years ago. In fact, some of the shots I visualized before I even began Homestuck. Can Town was always the destination of Homestuck. It was the reality of the ending for 7 years.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:37
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Homestuck. Most of the seasons were pretty good but drat the showrunners should have stuck to the plan and ended it rather than stretching the story out so thin and so long.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:37
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I'll pick up Undertale the next time it's on sale on Steam for 90% off, then let it sit in my backlog unplayed.Portals posted:Just popping in to say it's over (yaaay) and anyone who expected a tidy ending that resolved everything probably didn't read Problem Sleuth. Problem Sleuth had a really good ending though.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:38
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Cabbit posted:So what, John retcons a duplicate set of kids there to do that? Because don't we see the alpha in the happy ending? They're retcon powers. That's the joke. It doesn't matter where they came from. They're retconned in. It's a meh joke.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:38
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WAR FOOT posted:So, they left comments enabled on the YouTube video. That was a mistake. I dont mean to sound like a tool but Have you read infinite jest
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Apr 13, 2016 07:39
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net cafe scandal posted:When I saw Daves shoujo pose at the end of the YouTube video I immediately pulled my gun out of my desk and unloaded repeatedly into my forehead.. Well I keep the bullets somewhere else but thats how bad it felt. lol
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Apr 13, 2016 07:39
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heres my post mortem review of Home Stuck Dot Com, the Web Comic its got the narrative flow of a Pynchon novel and the ending of a Chabon novel. its got some good parts and some bad parts and its huge enough that you can enjoy the good parts and write off the bad ones. its a thing that undeniably exists for better or for worse.
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Apr 13, 2016 07:40
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