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You can sue anyone for anything. Does not mean you will be successful at it. Not to mention you have the whole kickstarter and post kickstarter exchange of money. You ask for ten million to try and go climb a mountain. People give you 111 million instead. You spend 11 million on your "attempt" and snort the rest up your nose. They are going to have an uphill battle trying to sue for that 90 million. EDIT: Catte pic. The scarf was because he had just had a spinal tap done to him  . not for fashion. 
Lladre fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 16:09
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As long as the backers are happy with what's being delivered and are happy to make excuses for it, CIG are in the clear. Even if CIG are in breach of their TOS, it's up to the backers to take action. I can't see that happening because they are all mental.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:10
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SurfaceDetail posted:but honestly "a visit from the FCA" can mean anything from they hosed up a simple form to they are all going to jail for ten years. That's even assuming it happened because Derek is hearing all this poo poo 3rd hand supposedly from employees. No, it does not. A visit from the FCA is serious. They do not visit unless real poo poo is happening.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:12
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:Whenever someone claims to have a simple answer to a question about contract law, they're wrong They've spent tens of millions, employing a few hundred people, and several years trying to make the game. Its clearly a dumpster fire and is coming out slow as molasses. But theres no fraud case or anything really actionable because of that. They just loving suck. Unless it turns out CR siphoned a few million for personal use or some poo poo. Gibbs charges about 90 an hour so I trust his judgement.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:13
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TTerrible posted:No, it does not. A visit from the FCA is serious. They do not visit unless real poo poo is happening. The problem with FCA visit is that even derek himself is saying "maybe gay and fake"
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Apr 13, 2016 16:14
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Truga posted:The problem with FCA visit is that even derek himself is saying "maybe gay and fake" Yup, true. The question is if the FCA visit happened or not, not if a visit from the FCA is serious. People keep downplaying it. I would bet on it being true though.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:17
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SurfaceDetail posted:They've spent tens of millions, employing a few hundred people, and several years trying to make the game. Its clearly a dumpster fire and is coming out slow as molasses. But theres no fraud case or anything really actionable because of that. They just loving suck. why are you posting like you have inside knowledge of the financials? how much money do you have in this game
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Apr 13, 2016 16:18
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I have 2 completionist packages. Is it really up for debate that they've spent most of the cash? I know they've hired hundreds of staff and opened several locations around the world with top end equipment over 4 years. Everyone knows that
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Apr 13, 2016 16:19
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SurfaceDetail posted:I have 2 completionist packages. Before this goes any further are you joking? inb4 "I've made it all back on the grey market though"
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Apr 13, 2016 16:20
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TTerrible posted:Before this goes any further are you joking? I've never spent a dime on this shitheap. I just think Derek's whole "They're gonna go to jail for fraud" schtick is dumb and it triggers the hell out of Legal.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:21
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TTerrible posted:I would bet on it being true though. 50/50 chance etc 
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Apr 13, 2016 16:21
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SurfaceDetail posted:I have 2 completionist packages. How do you know there's no fraud or anything actionable going on
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Apr 13, 2016 16:22
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Google Butt posted:How do you know there's no fraud or anything actionable going on From whats publicly available there is no fraud or anything actionable going on. Just a fuckload of incompetence and marketing towards retards
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Apr 13, 2016 16:23
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TTerrible posted:Yup, true. The question is if the FCA visit happened or not, not if a visit from the FCA is serious. People keep downplaying it. The bullet that kills you comes from the gun you don't hear being fired. Derek is making all the noise, but what we can't see, even in this thread, is whether or not there are backers who have quietly and independently reported this fiasco to their respective government entities. The wheels of government turn slowly, but they do turn. We can't assume that of hundreds of thousands of backers are all perfectly fine with what's happening. We already know that certain banks are fast-tracking chargebacks from CIG. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to think that maybe someone high up in the chain finally got enough independent reports, from banks and people alike, to think "Why the gently caress do I keep hearing about this company? What the gently caress are they doing?"
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Apr 13, 2016 16:23
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Truga posted:50/50 chance etc Dereks previous predictions have convinced me.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:24
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SurfaceDetail posted:I have 2 completionist packages. They've also shown a tendency for both the company and the owners to spend backer money frivolously. You can't have offices full of overpriced furniture, espresso machines, wall murals and space doors in absurdly expensive areas of the country and be driving limited edition Porsches and still be a good steward of backer money. "The backers won't know" - Chris Roberts
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Apr 13, 2016 16:25
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SurfaceDetail posted:They've spent tens of millions, employing a few hundred people, and several years trying to make the game. Its clearly a dumpster fire and is coming out slow as molasses. But theres no fraud case or anything really actionable because of that. They just loving suck. We don't know about anything that's likely actionable, that far I'd agree. But saying CIG actions haven't broken the laws of any of the countries they operate in is a pretty stupid statement, no matter what you charge per hour Like, continuing to collect cash for a project that you know - or should know - is failing is beyond sketchy. Is it also illegal in any of the countries they've collected money in? I dunno, and neither do you.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:25
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SurfaceDetail posted:From whats publicly available there is no fraud or anything actionable going on. Just a fuckload of incompetence and marketing towards retards lol
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Apr 13, 2016 16:26
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Well we shall see. I'm in it mostly for the backer tear/gunshots
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Apr 13, 2016 16:26
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I mean yeah, but claiming that you don't think fraud has been committed based on information publicly available is really dumb
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Apr 13, 2016 16:27
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SurfaceDetail posted:From whats publicly available there is no fraud or anything actionable going on. Just a fuckload of incompetence and marketing towards retards Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence  If this seriously is the extent of your legal knowledge you shouldn't flaunt it y'know
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Apr 13, 2016 16:28
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SurfaceDetail posted:I have 2 completionist packages. Quite a few people refuse to believe that CIG is just totally incompetent (as most evidence points to). If there is some criminal mischief (is there actual evidence of anything?) I would wager it would be from the Ortwin and Sandi camp. Those two seem genuinely bad people. Whereas Chris appears to be a man child surrounded by sycophants, oblivious to Rome burning around him. My opinion is that the FCA visited(if they did) because they couldn't believe it was not another Swedish mob front and left after finding out that the idiots burned through 100 million with nothing to show for it.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:29
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orcinus posted:Promises were made Paying for a dream That will never become true Only grief remains
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Apr 13, 2016 16:29
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SurfaceDetail posted:They've spent tens of millions, employing a few hundred people, and several years trying to make the game. Its clearly a dumpster fire and is coming out slow as molasses. But theres no fraud case or anything really actionable because of that. They just loving suck. I don't know what is and isn't acceptable, but they are using backer money to lease expensive cars/houses and (almost certainly) paying themselves huge sums. Then there is the question of who pays for all the vacations/acting lessons/piano lessons/martial arts training/ect.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:30
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The best darned space sim Ever? Only dreams. We have Been sold lovely lies.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:30
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence All I was saying is that Derek's whole "FRAUD JAILTIME SUING" schtick is dumb and as far as we can see at the moment, more bluster. I'm not saying categorically that I'm a mole on Ben's back and know everything is legit. Y'all need to chill.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:31
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You know, I'm catching up and getting a chuckle out of the anti-griefer timer being defeated by changing the system clock. You can really tell someone coding the PU just kinda shat that solution out because someone in management said that absolutely had to have antigriefer things in place right now. I'd argue that it was just a quick fix to please the paymasters, and no way would it reach final release in that form. But reaching final release means nothing to this game..so.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:32
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Scruffpuff posted:The bullet that kills you comes from the gun you don't hear being fired. Derek is making all the noise, but what we can't see, even in this thread, is whether or not there are backers who have quietly and independently reported this fiasco to their respective government entities. The wheels of government turn slowly, but they do turn. We can't assume that of hundreds of thousands of backers are all perfectly fine with what's happening. We already know that certain banks are fast-tracking chargebacks from CIG. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to think that maybe someone high up in the chain finally got enough independent reports, from banks and people alike, to think "Why the gently caress do I keep hearing about this company? What the gently caress are they doing?" Chase had no such thing when I called. So pardon me if I take anything anyone says in this thread with a grain of salt.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:32
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SurfaceDetail posted:They've spent tens of millions, employing a few hundred people, and several years trying to make the game. Its clearly a dumpster fire and is coming out slow as molasses. But theres no fraud case or anything really actionable because of that. They just loving suck. The FTC cares very much if they spend crowdfunded money on frivolous items such as rent/car leases/anything that isn't pertaining to the actual project http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/technology/ftc-reaches-settlement-in-a-kickstarter-scheme.html?_r=0 If enough people reported CiG to the FTC that are kickstarter backers they very could be investigated as well. Unfortunately that only is a tiny drop in the massive shitcloud of money they raised so it wouldn't do poo poo.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:32
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boethius posted:The best darned space sim That is the Star Citizen of haikus.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:33
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Matlock Birthmark posted:You know, I'm catching up and getting a chuckle out of the anti-griefer timer being defeated by changing the system clock. You can really tell someone coding the PU just kinda shat that solution out because someone in management said that absolutely had to have antigriefer things in place right now. I'd argue that it was just a quick fix to please the paymasters, and no way would it reach final release in that form. You better start believing about final releases. You're playing one.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:34
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What if they just pay themselves absurd salaries with the crowd funded money? It's obviously immoral but is it illegal?
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Apr 13, 2016 16:35
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I'm actually going to adopt a dog this month and one of the names I've been bouncing around is Legal. So theres been something productive out of that blog.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:35
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Wafflz posted:What if they just pay themselves absurd salaries with the crowd funded money? It's obviously immoral but is it illegal? I'll wait for /r/legaladvice's opinion
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Apr 13, 2016 16:36
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Lladre posted:Chase had no such thing when I called. So pardon me if I take anything anyone says in this thread with a grain of salt. Following Star Citizen is really loving up my sodium consumption
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Apr 13, 2016 16:37
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Tijuana Bibliophile posted:I'll wait for /r/legaladvice's opinion Worked for Dolvak
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Apr 13, 2016 16:38
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Crazy_BlackParrot posted:I'v been wondering about that, in normal cases this would be a closed investigation right? CIG is not a public company. It is a private company that people have been giving gifts to for the past four years, with an agreement that in exchange for those gifts CIG would provide some kind of game and associated content. CIG has absolutely no requirement whatsoever to provide any kind of financial transparency, and frankly they have no reason to do so given the blind loyalty people have displayed towards them. Sandi herself made that clear in her exchange with me. Depending on your country and local laws you can make the argument that your gift was actually a purchase (and frankly you should be making this argument and demanding a chargeback at this point), but CIG sure as gently caress isn't going to help you. The only way people will know CIG's financial status is if they go bankrupt, someone leaks the financials, an investigation ends up with information being public, or CIG themselves shares it. Toops posted:This nails it right in the face. I agree it's not so much about money as it is the manifestation of a tragic miscalculation: That technology will somehow fulfill our deepest needs. They thought Star Citizen was going to give them the escapist fantasy of their dreams. Roberts is a master at enabling people to take a subjective concept, fill in the gaps with their own dreams, and then act on the resulting construct in a manner that benefits him. His method is fairly simple but well established. First, focus on a scale that's seemingly impossible, but use a combination of sheer force of will and technical expertise (yours or others) to waylay doubts. Second, create a vision for a game that's incredibly specific in some places and intentionally vague in others so that the audience will be convinced of the whole picture but fill in the gaps to best meet their individual desires. Third, make the audience feel like they are part of the process and get them emotionally involved so that they will be motivated to spend more on their specific dream. Fourth, repeat the process as you slowly expand the scope. People didn't buy into Star Citizen because Chris Roberts told them their lives mattered. They bought into Star Citizen because Roberts told them they could be someone else and live vicariously through an alter ego that was perfectly tailored to whatever their personal dream was. For me it was the possibility of bringing forth the next EVE, of exploiting a community full of idiot manchildren who cry at the mere possibility of sharing a server with a griefer. For others it was the exact opposite; a safe space where players could freely RP to their hearts content and rely on the security of the game to keep them from facing undesirables. Others dreamed of exploring new worlds and discovering their own system, or of being a merchant amassing millions, or a dashing rogue who smuggles profit and has a heart of gold, or a myriad of other ideals. The very fact that EVERYONE could see the same thing and come up with their own perfect, ideal construct of what Star Citizen will be should have been a major warning sign. It took years for me to realize it, and only because CIG steadfastly refused to do anything about the schisms in the community. The three greatest conflicts in SC's community (conflicts that still aren't resolved) are PvP/PvE, joystick/mouse, and solo/organization. Each conflict reflects a clash of different playstyles (carebear vs griefer, hardcore vs casual, individual vs group), and yet CIG's only response was a reassurance that everyone would be happy. Eventually the conflicts raged on long enough that I had to accept the truth; Chris Roberts never intended to address them. He can't, because when he does it would immediately ostracize and anger those who were playing Star Citizen the "wrong" way. So long as he remained noncommittal people would still believe, and believers are the ones who donate. There's only one dream that's going to be realized, and that's whatever is in the head of Chris Roberts. His dream is not about gameplay, or mechanics, or controllers, or playstyles. His dream is about scale and appearances. His dream is to be the director of the greatest narrative ever constructed, which is why he can spend months directing performance capture while the core of his game is so terrible that he can't even play it. His dream is about making a virtual movie, which is why CitizenCon spent more time talking about the script and the actors than showing the actual game. His dream requires a commercial grade espresso machine, so he purchases one. His dream requires a fancy new office with high end furniture and a custom door that will impress anyone who comes in, so he purchases it all. His dream requires AAA actors who will cost millions, so he hires them. His dream requires CryEngine to work, so he poaches all of the necessary talent and establishes a fourth office in a new country. His dream requires more time, so he'll ignore any deadline he wants. Anything outside of his dream, like the expectations of the hundreds of thousands of backers who funded him, are irrelevant and will be ignored. Chris Roberts is a master of making others believe their dreams will be realized. In reality the only dream that matters is his own. Beer4TheBeerGod fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 16:38
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In the UK at least all packages and ships are most definitely purchases, without any doubt. You do not charge VAT on donations.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:39
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Even if I don't think they'd win. I hope someone does actually sue. The legal reasoning and what tack the lawyers choose to take will definitely be interesting.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:43
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A Neurotic Jew posted:wasn't one of the people who poo-pooed the escapist article (recent winner of some journalist award I guess!) a Kotaku writer? And wasn't the implication that he knew some of the stuff the article talked about but it's not his place to write an article about it or something equally retarded? Maybe if you guys are feeling 'cynical' you should spell out why before your readers walk directly into Audrey II's gaping maw. Stop being gross.
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Apr 13, 2016 16:45
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