|
I'd always thought of Excession as another The Culture meets Civilization X moment, honestly, just on a really big scale, but I really love the idea of thinking of it more as Banks' take on a Culture potboiler. 
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2016 22:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 19:31 |
|
|
General Battuta posted:The Culture is a fascinating setting exactly because it's not ambitiously post-human. It posits a society of recognizable people who've received everything we want: incorruptible government, unlimited self-actualization, no scarcity or need for labor, and perfect agency over your own body and mind. I really enjoyed that aspect of Permutation City, too. What Egan should I read next? The only other one I've read is Incandescence and while what he was doing with the book was interesting, the actual reading of it I found excruciatingly dull.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2016 22:50
|
|
|
Phanatic posted:I really enjoyed that aspect of Permutation City, too.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2016 22:56
|
|
|
I thought Quarantine was p. cool if a bit more conventional than Permutation City. Diaspora has been on my to-read list for a while now as well. e: Oceanic's largely great too! Koesj fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Apr 12, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2016 23:36
|
|
|
The problem I had wasn't that the society was practically post scarcity. It's that the Culture was tremendously unambitious with what it did with that status. The populace seems to just live, from my reading so far, an existence left wing 21st century types might think of as idyllic. This could be contrasted with the societies I mentioned before which did huge things with their position, like trying to record every conscious thought ever, or creating new suns out of gas giants. These other societies, of course, had populations that were less modern day human and much more post human, with intellects for the average citizen well beyond those of the non Mind Culture citizens. The internal goings on of these more aggressively posthuman societies were consequently much more interesting to read about, whereas the Culture only shines with a contrasting civilisation. The posthuman societies tickle my imagination far more than what I have seen of the Culture so far. Note I am only two novels in, and I am still enjoying the books, I just don't put the Culture on the same plane as other fictional mega advanced civilisations.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 06:45
|
|
|
Yeah, I've always thought that the biggest concession of the Culture books is that half the populace haven't immediately started upgrading themselves to be as close to Mind status as they can get.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 07:02
|
|
|
Strategic Tea posted:Yeah, I've always thought that the biggest concession of the Culture books is that half the populace haven't immediately started upgrading themselves to be as close to Mind status as they can get. I think that's probably the most accurate part of the Culture. Most people just live, maybe with their one random obsession (playing games, playing the hydrogen sonata, etc.) I mean, the Culture books basically pose the question "if you didn't have to worry about anything and could have anything, what would you do?" and pointing out that to some extent the people who don't just accept the freedom from want are the broken ones. If you can live happily, why would you pursue discomfort and unhappiness?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 07:27
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:The problem I had wasn't that the society was practically post scarcity. It's that the Culture was tremendously unambitious with what it did with that status. The populace seems to just live, from my reading so far, an existence left wing 21st century types might think of as idyllic. This could be contrasted with the societies I mentioned before which did huge things with their position, like trying to record every conscious thought ever, or creating new suns out of gas giants. These other societies, of course, had populations that were less modern day human and much more post human, with intellects for the average citizen well beyond those of the non Mind Culture citizens. The internal goings on of these more aggressively posthuman societies were consequently much more interesting to read about, whereas the Culture only shines with a contrasting civilisation. The posthuman societies tickle my imagination far more than what I have seen of the Culture so far. Note I am only two novels in, and I am still enjoying the books, I just don't put the Culture on the same plane as other fictional mega advanced civilisations. Yeah, like I said above, the Culture is about 21st century humans who've been granted everything they desire. What is life about now? What provides them purpose? Are they people or cattle? Do they have a responsibility to intervene in less developed societies, or a responsibility not to? The Culture does not engage in gigaprojects (barring the occasional war or effort to wipe out hell) because that's not what we, humans, would do. We'd live variegated and pluralist lives chasing our own interests. Banks is a very humanist writer. Even when he's dealing with the most posthuman aspects of the Culture, like easy voluntary sex change, he brings it back to very psychological-realist traumas and conflicts.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 07:45
|
|
|
Yeah, you got what I was talking about, Battuta, but I don't think some of the other replies quite grappled with it. For my money if I were in such a society I'd start bootstrapping myself with enhancements and cybernetics as much as possible but I can see the appeal of hedonism.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 08:23
|
|
|
Strategic Tea posted:Yeah, I've always thought that the biggest concession of the Culture books is that half the populace haven't immediately started upgrading themselves to be as close to Mind status as they can get. Given infinite technology people aren't going to try to turn themselves into AIs, they're going to try to get more sex. Compared to a hundred years ago, say, the West has improved its technology to a ridiculous extent, but most of us aren't using it to find the Higgs boson. We're swiping right. (E: And this is just at the level of reasonable characterisation, ignoring the possibility that Banks might be interested in relating his books to contemporary society.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 09:48
|
|
|
Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:I love the series (and have already bought the books before), so give em a whirl. Hell, if it sucks, it's only a buck. Dude, people don't have to worry about Caverns n Cobolds sucking cuz they're fuckin hilarious and awesome, and also highly addictive. The audiobook versions are also top notch, probably my favorite humor audiobooks, with an awesome narrator that provides perfect voices for the characters, and they manage to make me actually laugh out loud for real.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 09:56
|
|
|
Egan I've enjoyed: Diaspora, Permutation City, many of his earlier short stories. Egan I couldn't finish: Schild's Ladder, The Clockwork Rocket.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 10:31
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:The problem I had wasn't that the society was practically post scarcity. It's that the Culture was tremendously unambitious with what it did with that status. The populace seems to just live, from my reading so far, an existence left wing 21st century types might think of as idyllic. This could be contrasted with the societies I mentioned before which did huge things with their position, like trying to record every conscious thought ever, or creating new suns out of gas giants. These other societies, of course, had populations that were less modern day human and much more post human, with intellects for the average citizen well beyond those of the non Mind Culture citizens. The internal goings on of these more aggressively posthuman societies were consequently much more interesting to read about, whereas the Culture only shines with a contrasting civilisation. The posthuman societies tickle my imagination far more than what I have seen of the Culture so far. Note I am only two novels in, and I am still enjoying the books, I just don't put the Culture on the same plane as other fictional mega advanced civilisations. I think the mistake you're making is that the Culture really isn't a post-human society. Post-scarcity, certainly, but it's very much still a human culture.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 10:36
|
|
|
No, I'm aware of the distinction, hence why I'm referring to the other cultures as 'more aggressively posthuman' and mentioning the fact the citizens in the other civilisations had less in common with modern days humans.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 10:56
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:No, I'm aware of the distinction, hence why I'm referring to the other cultures as 'more aggressively posthuman' and mentioning the fact the citizens in the other civilisations had less in common with modern days humans. Uh, have you read The Hydrogen Sonata? Because it's stated pretty plainly that if you want to go the post-human route, you sublime, and the Culture defines itself by the fact that it could sublime but doesn't. Most of the Culture's ethos and self-identity is about embracing the few constraints and restrictions that exit in a post-scarcity world. There are dissenters who are working to sublime or doing other non-Culture things but they're called out as being only borderline Culture, splinter factions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 12:11
|
|
|
Y'all are really making me want to start Banks. Decided that my first one will be Excession, after listening to suggestions and reasonings. Beyond the sort of meta-analysis we're doing here, is there anything I should know before going in, just to avoid confusion?
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 13:12
|
|
|
mdemone posted:Y'all are really making me want to start Banks. Decided that my first one will be Excession, after listening to suggestions and reasonings. I'd suggest a physical copy - large chunks of the book are communications between AIs (which is awesome, Banks' machines are often more compelling than his humans) and it helps if you can flip back and forth to follow the conversation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 13:24
|
|
|
mdemone posted:Y'all are really making me want to start Banks. Decided that my first one will be Excession, after listening to suggestions and reasonings. Buy trade paperbacks and not lovely mass market editions
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 13:31
|
|
|
I just caught up with Battuta's commentary on The Traitor Baru Cormorant. It's helpful for my rereading of the book, but unfortunately it only goes five chapters deep as of now. The only thing I really disagree with is that I think Heingyl (I pronounce it with a hard G.) is a perfectly fine name, and would single out Ihuake as the most awkward name in the book instead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 13:47
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:Yeah, you got what I was talking about, Battuta, but I don't think some of the other replies quite grappled with it. The other thing is that although it's never front and center it's kind of implied that people do all sorts of weird esoteric things but existing too far outside of the "human" norm is considered anywhere from tacky to crazy to antisocial.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 18:22
|
|
|
I've been reading a lot of David Weber lately, and it's put me in the mood for some good space opera stuff. Heavy on the science, empire-building, intrigue, that kind of stuff. Where do you guys think I should start? I should note - Star Wars isn't one of my favorite settings. It's OK but in the past all the stuff I read tended to focus too much on Jedi/force and individuals rather than politics, intrigue, fleet maneuvers, etc.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 18:49
|
|
|
khy posted:I've been reading a lot of David Weber lately, and it's put me in the mood for some good space opera stuff. Heavy on the science, empire-building, intrigue, that kind of stuff. Where do you guys think I should start? You could try the Succession duology by Scott Westerfeld, which has one of the longest and most consistently tense space battles I've ever read. The Risen Empire/Killing of Worlds. They're pretty much one book but the publisher split them in half.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 19:17
|
|
|
khy posted:all the stuff I read tended to focus too much on Jedi/force and individuals rather than politics, intrigue, fleet maneuvers, etc. First volume of "Legend of Galactic Heroes" is out in translation (the translation is kind of clunky, but you can see why it was such a big deal originally).
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 19:21
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:You could try the Succession duology by Scott Westerfeld, which has one of the longest and most consistently tense space battles I've ever read. The Risen Empire/Killing of Worlds. They're pretty much one book but the publisher split them in half. God damnit, I was going to post this. Like, nearly word for word. The big space battle is Das Boot levels of intense and the thing that's most rubbed off on me, and it's still very hard SF how everything works in it. I hope he gets around to writing more in the future.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 19:53
|
|
|
Grimson posted:The other thing is that although it's never front and center it's kind of implied that people do all sorts of weird esoteric things but existing too far outside of the "human" norm is considered anywhere from tacky to crazy to antisocial. Hell, I'm sure I remember some characters at one point talking about how it used to be fashionable to spend time as a sentient alien shrub, complete with an old contact agent who never gave up his plant body. They can be as posthuman as they want. They just only use it to goof around, rather than all that transcend the flesh nonsense.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 20:01
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:You could try the Succession duology by Scott Westerfeld, which has one of the longest and most consistently tense space battles I've ever read. The Risen Empire/Killing of Worlds. They're pretty much one book but the publisher split them in half. Phwoar I totally forgot about reading these! Yeah they're cool and I third the recommendation.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 22:36
|
|
|
General Battuta posted:Yeah, like I said above, the Culture is about 21st century humans who've been granted everything they desire. What is life about now? What provides them purpose? Are they people or cattle? Do they have a responsibility to intervene in less developed societies, or a responsibility not to? The Culture does not engage in gigaprojects (barring the occasional war or effort to wipe out hell) because that's not what we, humans, would do. We'd live variegated and pluralist lives chasing our own interests. Well, it does; there are Orbitals and ringworlds and Dyson spheres, but the construction of those things isn't dealt with because who cares? Gigaprojects are secondary to the questions you use as examples. When resources are unlimited, conflicts are only going to be moral in nature.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2016 23:04
|
|
|
Neurosis posted:Yeah, you got what I was talking about, Battuta, but I don't think some of the other replies quite grappled with it. No you wouldn't, because you wouldn't be the you typing this. These characters exist in their world, not ours, and their behaviour is a result of the material conditions of their lives, so their motivations and lifestyles being alien to those of a normal 21st century human's is apt. What wouldn't make sense is people in a post-scarcity, galaxy-spanning civilization behaving in any way like modern people do. On this topic, are the Culture books actually good, well-written novels? I keep hearing good things, but I've been burned before by goon favourite authors while enjoying novels by authors like KSR which are generally looked down upon here for being "boring".
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 00:45
|
|
|
Uh yea. Banks can tell a hell of a story.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 00:58
|
|
|
And he can turn a phrase with the best of them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 01:01
|
|
|
Wheeee posted:No you wouldn't, because you wouldn't be the you typing this. These characters exist in their world, not ours, and their behaviour is a result of the material conditions of their lives, so their motivations and lifestyles being alien to those of a normal 21st century human's is apt. What wouldn't make sense is people in a post-scarcity, galaxy-spanning civilization behaving in any way like modern people do. can you hear my eyes rolling from where you are
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 02:02
|
|
|
Wheeee posted:On this topic, are the Culture books actually good, well-written novels? I keep hearing good things, but I've been burned before by goon favourite authors while enjoying novels by authors like KSR which are generally looked down upon here for being "boring". Yes, that's why they're beloved. Banks is an excellent writer at a craft level, and while I don't think he's great at structure, he's charming and funny and heartfelt and often really horrifying. e: and gone too soon 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 02:10
|
|
|
So basically The Culture is not so much a series, but a bunch of books set in the same universe?
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 02:41
|
|
|
Yea
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 02:43
|
|
|
Grimson posted:The other thing is that although it's never front and center it's kind of implied that people do all sorts of weird esoteric things but existing too far outside of the "human" norm is considered anywhere from tacky to crazy to antisocial. Tanith Lee addressed exactly this in Don't Bite the Sun, only she did it 10 years before Banks started publishing Culture novels. I wonder if he read her work, or this is just a natural direction one would take in examining a culture like The Culture.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 02:53
|
|
|
tiniestacorn posted:Tanith Lee addressed exactly this in Don't Bite the Sun, only she did it 10 years before Banks started publishing Culture novels. I wonder if he read her work, or this is just a natural direction one would take in examining a culture like The Culture. It's difficult to say, Banks writes that there were plenty of periods of time where weird and non-humanoid, or even merging with machine consciousnesses were in fashion. I got the feeling it was always more of a writerly conceit, there was always the occasional party scene with the really weird Culture citizen, but Banks didn't want to alienate his readers, so to speak. While it's totally possible Banks read Tanith's stuff, I suspect they just both decided to tackle the subject of utopia and came to different conclusions. Tanith's utopia was more in the style of Brave New World and seemed to reflect the post-scarce but heavily conformist societies of Earth (everything is definitely perfect, haha, WTF YOU ROCKED THE BOAT AND YOU WILL PAY) whereas the Culture repeatedly ensures that people can do whatever the hell they want as long as they aren't very obviously harming others (and even then there are Orbitals expressly for megalomaniacs to live where they can get their jollies without anyone actually getting hurt). Leaving the Culture or even starting your own splinter civilization is entirely accepted.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 03:07
|
|
|
Wheeee posted:On this topic, are the Culture books actually good, well-written novels? I keep hearing good things, but I've been burned before by goon favourite authors while enjoying novels by authors like KSR which are generally looked down upon here for being "boring". Yes with the caveat that you shouldn't start with Consider Phlebas.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 05:40
|
|
|
Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:So basically The Culture is not so much a series, but a bunch of books set in the same universe? Yes, I don't think there's a single character in common between any of the stories, unless I'm forgetting someone. (Maybe one of the Minds gets mentioned more than once?)
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 06:41
|
|
|
Hobnob posted:Yes, I don't think there's a single character in common between any of the stories, unless I'm forgetting someone. (Maybe one of the Minds gets mentioned more than once?) There are a couple who span a book or two.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 06:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 27, 2024 19:31 |
|
|
EdBlackadder posted:There are a couple who span a book or two. And the book or two are set like a thousand years apart 
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2016 07:30
|
|
