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HEY GAL posted:haha what? Thanks for the link. Looking at the number of survivors for each category, you probably need a hospital to survive the penetrating heart wounds (the number of survivors overall and for those transported to the trauma center is the exact same). That said, the fact that they can make it long enough for the doctors to do whatever you do in that case is pretty impressive. wdarkk fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 22:35
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chitoryu12 posted:
One of the recent developments in wound ballistics has been the discovery that a sufficiently powerful round can result in a pressure wave which can cause traumatic brain injury even if the bullet isn't striking the brain directly, and that can cause sudden loss of consciousness or a sufficient loss of equilibrium to fall the hell down. But then there are also cases of people being shot, not noticing the injury, and not falling down, and then falling down when the notice that they've been shot. chitoryu12 posted:
It's not kinetic energy that's relevant here, it's momentum. The kinetic energy of the round impacting the plate is being turned into heat, noise, deformation of the round and the plate, etc, but momentum, a vector quantity, needs to be conserved. And the momentum isn't enough that there's really a *physics* reason the guy gets knocked down; the plate doesn't push back on the soldier's torso very hard. SVD round at the muzzle has about 9.7 kilogram*meters per second of momentum, about the same as a football thrown by an NFL quarterback. People catch football passes all the time and can easily handle that sort of momentum transfer without being knocked down. If the SAPI plate stops a round and the wearer falls down, he's falling down because of a psychological or physiological reason, not because of the amount of KE or momentum transfer involved. Phanatic fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 22:39
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MrMojok posted:It was insane, casualties through parts of 1967 and 68 ran to 80% and reached 100% at some points. The NVA, being no dummies, figured out what SF was doing and how they operated and in '67 if I recall they decommissioned a paratroop unit and using those people stood up counter-recon teams whose whole purpose was to hang out at different spots on the Trail and hunt the SOG people down. Hell, it took a Cracked article for me to consider how unfamiliar most VC / NVA troops were with the jungle. Ainsley McTree posted:
Xander77 fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 23:11
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Delivery McGee posted:
 This reminds me: Danger close is more of a factor of the precision of the barrage over the explosive radius of the shell, right? Has danger close range shrunk as targetting got more precise? I had the thought the other day that if that is true, despite the fact mortars are smaller weapons than field guns, mortars are probably riskier to fire nearer your dudes because your position isn't going to be as well-measured. On the other hand, that sounds super dumb, so... I guess info on artillery safety vs usefulness over the years is really my question.
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Apr 13, 2016 23:19
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Yes* As precision increases the fragmentary/shock radius of the shell matters more.
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Apr 13, 2016 23:33
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All this talk of gunshots and knockback reminded me of a story I once heard, maybe ya'll can confirm/deny: The US Army issued a .45 caliber handgun during the insurgency operations in the Phillipines following the Spanish-American War, and this was because a lot of the insurgents would get high on local drugs, and they needed a weapon with punch behind it to actually make the insurgents stay down. True? Complete crap? Somewhere in the middle?
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Apr 14, 2016 00:23
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So how close is worryingly close for WW2 artillery vs modern artillery? And what about mortars? I'd assume ones that are in vehicles can benefit from fancy calibration stuff, but are ones people just lug around much improved?
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Apr 14, 2016 00:24
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Thalantos posted:All this talk of gunshots and knockback reminded me of a story I once heard, maybe ya'll can confirm/deny: I don't know enough, but wikipedia seems to see it as pretty legit, minus the 'high on local drugs' bit. Of course, who knows with wikis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juramentado quote:The Moros' use of local intelligence to mark target situations, coupled with a keen understanding of the tactical element of surprise made combating juramentado warriors difficult for Spanish troops during its long attempt to occupy the Sulu Archipelago. In an era of warfare where body armor had become anachronistic, an unexpected melee attack with razor-sharp blades was a devastating tactic against veteran soldiers. Even when colonizers had time to draw weapons and fire on the charging attacker, the small caliber weapons commonly in use possessed no stopping power, bullets passing though limbs and torso, the juramentados' ritual binding working as a set of tourniquets to prevent the swordsman from bleeding out from wounds before accomplishing his purpose.
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Apr 14, 2016 00:30
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spectralent posted:
american mortars are, at least, going to have a gps capable of a 10 digit grid. likewise, the fo is going to have a gps capable of a 10 digit grid. when shooting indirect weapons: knowing your position accurately and the fo knowing his position accurately is half the battle. the mortar team is probably going to have a mortar computer that does all the math for them and the fo might have an integrated gps/lazer rangerfinder/azimuth indicator that spits out a 10 digit grid with elevation for the target. everyone still trains to do it old school style with a plotting board, compass, 6 digit grids, firing tables and binos. plotting boards are like some magic from the 19th century that i never really understood.
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Apr 14, 2016 00:33
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Thalantos posted:All this talk of gunshots and knockback reminded me of a story I once heard, maybe ya'll can confirm/deny: Pretty sure it's not. You hear a lot of this from American cops as well, rumours of crackheads that resist "9 mm Europellet". Taerkar posted:Yes* Soviet WWII era artillery tables already include safe fragmentation distance for avoiding friendly fire, so I assume it was already a significant factor back then.
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Apr 14, 2016 00:37
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Thalantos posted:All this talk of gunshots and knockback reminded me of a story I once heard, maybe ya'll can confirm/deny: Middle, mostly towards crap. "They're high on drugs and are weapons are useless against them" is a common battle myth, it even cropped up during Restore Hope when guys fired 5.56mm at Somalis, didn't instakill them, and the story became "They're so high on khat we need something bigger than 5.56mm." People in combat miss a lot, and tell stories to explain why they didn't. That said, the predecessor to the .45 Colt, the .38 Long Colt, was a pretty anemic cartridge by any standard, with under 200 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle. And there were cases of people getting hit multiple times with it and continuing to fight, and that did prompt the development of a new cartridge. But there are cases of people being hit multiple times with .30-caliber rifle rounds and continuing to fight.
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Apr 14, 2016 00:49
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As I understand it, there's no scientific consensus about what "stopping power" actually means and how to measure it?
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Apr 14, 2016 00:58
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Thanks for the answers, ya'll  They were quite informative.
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Apr 14, 2016 01:03
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I'm starting to eat up the backlog. Let's have a double. Very Slightly More Than 100 Years Ago It's the 9th of April, and today is mostly about what Zee Germans are doing. At Verdun there is another titanic push that captures microscopic amounts of terrain in rapidly-worsening weather. If it weren't absolutely pissing with rain over Verdun right now the Germans would also be going some way to rebalancing the air war with the introduction of the Halberstadt D.II and the Albatros D.I prototype fighters. And a small, discreet freighter has just left, pretending to be Norweigan, observing strict radio silence, running the North Sea blockade...and heading, on the mother of all "round the houses" courses, eventually for Ireland. Elsewhere: Grigoris Balakian swaps some more atrocity stories from the Armenian genocide, and decides to escape alone if necessary; Edward Mousley's usual garrulousness is cut very short because of something that's going to happen tomorrow; Malcolm White gets strafed for the first time and takes refuge in some mildly oblique Biblical referencing (and a dugout); Clifford Wells runs down several signs that even the idiot son of a Montreal millionaire can tell mean that a major offensive is in the works; and Private Louis Barthas suspects that his officers may be using dirty tricks (perish the thought!) to stop him seeing the colonel, so writes directly to this Olympian personage and gets immediate results. By the way, does anyone happen to know when the phrase "squared away" became an integral part of US Army-speak? MassivelyBuckNegro posted:american mortars are, at least, going to have a gps capable of a 10 digit grid. likewise, the fo is going to have a gps capable of a 10 digit grid. when shooting indirect weapons: knowing your position accurately and the fo knowing his position accurately is half the battle. How accurate are mortars expected to be? 100 years ago, the rule of thumb was that any given gun should be accurate to within 100 yards; a skilled trench-mortar crew could narrow that down to about 15-25 yards with a good weapon in ideal conditions. Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 01:14
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Xander77 posted:As I understand it, there's no scientific consensus about what "stopping power" actually means and how to measure it? Yeah. What consensus exists basically leans towards shot placement trumping caliber in every circumstance up until you start getting to autocannon caliber rounds. Also, I'm going to drop this and walk away. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIwimWccIoM edit: been a loooooong time since I heard Deutschland Uber Alles sung unironically.
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Apr 14, 2016 02:33
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Xander77 posted:Yeah, it's like how whenever you shove someone, you're shoved back with the same force, because we're all floating around in zero gravity. You do see something like this with very high-power weapons (especially handguns like the Desert Eagle or Smith & Wesson Model 500) on a smaller scale, where the shooter fails to maintain a strong grip and the gun just goes flying out of their hands and possibly hits them in the face. All the energy gets applied to the weapon. Of course, sometimes you get into sillier realms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNyILOTCkLM
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Apr 14, 2016 02:42
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I always heard that the Army adopted a .45 as a sidearm to more reliably put down injured horses.
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Apr 14, 2016 03:51
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I'm watching "The Civil War" as mentioned and - What is MaClellian's problem He's like the worst, most awful terrible general and I wanna say Abraham Lincoln should have fired him way sooner, but apparently there are military units being lead by 30 year old university profs with no qualifications whatsoever so maybe the talent pool isn't deep On the other side Stonewall Jackson is amusing, always gnawing on fruit and holding one of his arms up to restore circulation. Dude loved eating lemons in particular.
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Apr 14, 2016 04:15
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I will say that while The Civil War is probably my favorite TV show of all time one of the main criticisms I have of it was its treatment of McClellan....he wasn't great by any means, but he wasn't quite the complete idiot that he's portrayed as in that series. He was every bit as pompous as he was portrayed though, lol
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Apr 14, 2016 04:26
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he was quartermasterkin, the soul of a logistics dude in the body of a commanding general
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Apr 14, 2016 04:32
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Nebakenezzer posted:I'm watching "The Civil War" as mentioned and - Also, apparently bad intelligence(?) constantly fed to him had him believing that the enemy had 4-5 as many troops and reserves as they ever actually had.
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Apr 14, 2016 04:32
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Phanatic posted:Middle, mostly towards crap. "They're high on drugs and are weapons are useless against them" is a common battle myth, it even cropped up during Restore Hope when guys fired 5.56mm at Somalis, didn't instakill them, and the story became "They're so high on khat we need something bigger than 5.56mm." People in combat miss a lot, and tell stories to explain why they didn't.  I am not a gun person.
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Apr 14, 2016 04:36
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Phanatic posted:Middle, mostly towards crap. "They're high on drugs and are weapons are useless against them" is a common battle myth, it even cropped up during Restore Hope when guys fired 5.56mm at Somalis, didn't instakill them, and the story became "They're so high on khat we need something bigger than 5.56mm." People in combat miss a lot, and tell stories to explain why they didn't. The .45 Long Colt was actually replaced by the .38 Colt for use by the army. The .45 Colt is a slightly older round, and in true military fashion there is a ton of wonkiness around it. The US Military put out a contract for a pistol to use up it's stocks of .45LC and Smith & Wesson won it. And then decided to make their own variation of .45 caliber ammo and build the gun around that. Except you can't fire .45LC in a gun meant for .45 S&W because the round is too long. Which caused no end of issues. So there is a third variation produced by the US Military to try to solve this. Later the .38 LC will be adopted. The Moro Rebellion will end up causing the US Army to dip into stocks of the old Colt Single Action Army and a new variation that used .45LC. These get issued in the Philippines and in some other overseas posts. And then eventually the Army will adopt the 1911 and the .45 ACP that it uses. I also seem to recall that Perishing wasn't overly impressed with the quality of the troops stationed there. Or the officers who came before him when it came to dealing with the Moro. The evolutionary replacement cartridge for the .38 LC is the .38 Special. Which later on cops would claim lacked the stopping power needed to put down criminals. I suspect that the biggest issue the .38 LC and the .38 Special faced is that shooting in a stress situation is hard. And it's likely in a lot of cases with the troops facing the Moro or the cops, they likely just missed a lot and assumed they hit.
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Apr 14, 2016 05:05
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Arquinsiel posted:That one is actually addressed in the book of Black Hawk Down and is attributed to the harder tipped armour piercing rounds the 5.56 guns were using. The story goes that the harder tip prevented round squashing or tumbling thus making smaller, neater holes in the target, and often turning a killshot into a minor injury. As to the truth of that - That's actually somewhat reasonable. A rifle round really wants to travel base-first, it's only the spin imparted to it by the rifling that keeps it traveling point-first, but when it stops traveling through air and starts traveling through a big fluid-filled bag like a block of ballistic gelatin or a person, that spin won't keep it stable anymore and it will try to assume that base-first orientation. M193 5.56mm ammo will tend to fracture at the cannelure when it tumbles, breaking into two or three pieces, creating a really nasty primary wound cavity. M855 ball has a steel tip, and depending on angle of entry might not even tumble, and even if it does tumble probably won't break up. So, yeah, it's possible that some soldiers shot Somalis in a way that'd have been incapacitating if they'd been using M193 but instead just punched clean through them without hitting anything vital like an organ or major blood vessel. It's also possible that they did hit them in those areas, but didn't instakill them because people don't work that way. It's also possible that they just plain missed. And all ammunition fired from the M4 is pretty crappy out past a hundred yards, because the shorter barrel means it doesn't really carry enough energy past that range to do the break-into-pieces trick.
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Apr 14, 2016 05:06
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Arquinsiel posted:That one is actually addressed in the book of Black Hawk Down and is attributed to the harder tipped armour piercing rounds the 5.56 guns were using. The story goes that the harder tip prevented round squashing or tumbling thus making smaller, neater holes in the target, and often turning a killshot into a minor injury. As to the truth of that - Wouldn't they have just been using plain full metal jacket ammo without AP tips? The whole reason we issue FMJ is that it's a decent general purpose round without being overly specialized against flesh or armor (we actually didn't sign the part of the Hague Convention banning expanding ammo so we're not legally obligated to follow it, and snipers do prefer boat-tail hollow points for their ballistics). Edit: I should point out that all soldiers are currently trained to fire multiple shots into an enemy to ensure that they actually go down. Instances of M4 carbines "not being powerful enough" can be attributed to cases where soldiers simply fired once and expected the bad guy to fall over like in a movie or video game instead of seemingly ignoring the bullet and still going. chitoryu12 fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 05:18
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chitoryu12 posted:Wouldn't they have just been using plain full metal jacket ammo without AP tips? The whole reason we issue FMJ is that it's a decent general purpose round without being overly specialized against flesh or armor (we actually didn't sign the part of the Hague Convention banning expanding ammo so we're not legally obligated to follow it, and snipers do prefer boat-tail hollow points for their ballistics).
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Apr 14, 2016 05:54
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Phanatic posted:That's actually somewhat reasonable. A rifle round really wants to travel base-first, it's only the spin imparted to it by the rifling that keeps it traveling point-first, but when it stops traveling through air and starts traveling through a big fluid-filled bag like a block of ballistic gelatin or a person, that spin won't keep it stable anymore and it will try to assume that base-first orientation. M193 5.56mm ammo will tend to fracture at the cannelure when it tumbles, breaking into two or three pieces, creating a really nasty primary wound cavity. M855 ball has a steel tip, and depending on angle of entry might not even tumble, and even if it does tumble probably won't break up. So, yeah, it's possible that some soldiers shot Somalis in a way that'd have been incapacitating if they'd been using M193 but instead just punched clean through them without hitting anything vital like an organ or major blood vessel. It's also possible that they did hit them in those areas, but didn't instakill them because people don't work that way. It's also possible that they just plain missed. I don't think short barrel carbines were commonly issued in 1993, certainly not to the rangers.
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Apr 14, 2016 06:45
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Throatwarbler posted:I don't think short barrel carbines were commonly issued in 1993, certainly not to the rangers. While the M4 Carbine didn't exist in 1993, the Colt Commando/CAR-15 series of carbine AR-15s had been around since the 1960s and they saw common usage with special forces like the Rangers and Delta Force. Delta and Ranger operators are even recorded as having used Aimpoint 500 reflex sights during the operation.
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Apr 14, 2016 06:50
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Arquinsiel posted:That one is actually addressed in the book of Black Hawk Down and is attributed to the harder tipped armour piercing rounds the 5.56 guns were using. The story goes that the harder tip prevented round squashing or tumbling thus making smaller, neater holes in the target, and often turning a killshot into a minor injury. As to the truth of that - Overpenetration is most certainly a thing, and has been for bullets or projectiles, and even bombs and naval shells. Especially if such munitions are explosive in nature, as you want them to explode in your target, not behind them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWZMd8sNbwg&t=144s http://i.imgur.com/6f2lZHm.gifv Note the bullet separating This site is currently down, but he/they have done a great look on multiple calibres in various situations. In one such test, he put several firearms (and their respective calibers) to the test against many layers of wood that would simulate drywall and see how much penetration you would have/require. Such info is useful for a home defense scenario, as you want your round to hurt the intruder, not him and whatever is behind your target (apartment living, large houses, many rooms, etc.) http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/ This one works for me for now... http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/ "There is only one way to know how much a certain round penetrates. You must shoot it into a medium and see for a fact."  "First, we loaded the box with 12 sheets of 5/8 sheetrock, which is also called wallboard in some areas. Since it takes 2 sheets per wall, this is the thickness of 6 interior walls." Why twelve? It seemed like a good number and I thought it might stop most rounds. I was about to learn something. First, I shot it with my M-17 S&W, .22 LR HP. It penetrated 6 sheets and bounced off the seventh sheet. That would be the equivalent of 3 interior walls. And that’s only a .22 pistol. Long story short, we proceeded to shoot several rounds and they all penetrated all 12 sheets and exited."  "Notice that the XM-193 is tumbling." Jobbo_Fett fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 07:20
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Deutchland uber alles is such a weak song, I would quit Nazi party on the spot. Now, the Soviet anthrm is where it gets good. Ballistics is a tricky thing, and "lol .22", 9mm vs .45 ACP, 5.56 vs 7.62 arguments are here to stay. At least we're not in pre WWII when everyone felt the need to adopt a slughtly different caliber Wish all ammo was measured in metric, tho.
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Apr 14, 2016 08:47
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JcDent posted:metric 
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Apr 14, 2016 08:52
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Your unwillingness to accept the metric system and showering naked in your front yard means that you will always be an alien in Germany always
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Apr 14, 2016 09:33
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Jobbo_Fett posted:Overpenetration is most certainly a thing, and has been for bullets or projectiles, and even bombs and naval shells. Especially if such munitions are explosive in nature, as you want them to explode in your target, not behind them. Don't hotlink, re-host poo poo on imgur. Hotlinking is unreliable and very rude. A B
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Apr 14, 2016 10:08
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Xander77 posted:Didn't watch that show, but he was ver good at putting an army together - logistics, training, etc. (The sort of stuff that gets omitted in pop-history, much less visual media, due to being boring, but is actually highly complex and hard to pull off) As a consequence (?) he was really scared of losing that army / taking major losses. Mac had a certain viewpoint and found intelligence that confirmed his idea of what the Confederates were doing. Before more effective military bureaucracies developed, men like him in high commands were entirely necessary to run an army. Unfortunately, putting them in high commands forced them to make tactical and operational decisions and not all men of that mindset were capable of it. Even Napoleon relied on his own sperginess as well as that of Davout and Berthier to administer his armies. Modern military officers can be much, much more specialized than officers of those days. I believe Mac was also considered a wunderkind of the time, and I think Grant suggested that he was promoted to his position prematurely. He was definitely pretty young.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:18
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MrMojok posted:The NVA, being no dummies, figured out what SF was doing and how they operated and in '67 if I recall they decommissioned a paratroop unit and using those people stood up counter-recon teams whose whole purpose was to hang out at different spots on the Trail and hunt the SOG people down. The NVA had paratroopers? 
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Apr 14, 2016 11:45
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JcDent posted:Deutchland uber alles is such a weak song, I would quit Nazi party on the spot. Now, the Soviet anthrm is where it gets good. Good news, the Nazi party song is actually the Horst Wessel Lied!
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Apr 14, 2016 11:56
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HEY GAL posted:he was quartermasterkin, the soul of a logistics dude in the body of a commanding general Wallensteinsyndrom
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Apr 14, 2016 13:20
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Nebakenezzer posted:He's like the worst, most awful terrible general and I wanna say Abraham Lincoln should have fired him way sooner, but apparently there are military units being lead by 30 year old university profs with no qualifications whatsoever so maybe the talent pool isn't deep Don't go throwing any shade on Col. Chamberlain, son. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL-5uyp44WA
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Apr 14, 2016 13:48
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Don't go throwing any shade on Col. Chamberlain, son. dude will forever be my fav civil war figure
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Apr 14, 2016 13:57
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Don't go throwing any shade on Col. Chamberlain, son.
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Apr 14, 2016 13:59
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