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Elfgames posted:Nah cause cap is supposed to be ahead of his time I don't think anybody can dispute that Cap represents the ideal America, it's just fun to shoot the poo poo. My favorite bit from Winter Soldier is when Fury basically says "The greatest generation? Yeah, right".
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Apr 14, 2016 10:16
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Pirate Jet posted:Except AoU basically did everything but directly retcon the Hydra twist anyways so vOv That was mostly Joss Whedon. Now that the Cap 2 guys are in charge, they can do some other narrative gymnastic to make it fall in line with their movie.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:18
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PiedPiper posted:I don't think anybody can dispute that Cap represents the ideal America, it's just fun to shoot the poo poo. Maybe but people seem genuinely confused that cap would defy the government.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:28
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Elfgames posted:Maybe but people seem genuinely confused that cap would defy the government. Government and subordination are a necessary evil, though. I'll have to see the movie first, and I'm actually fairly optimistic about it, but right now I have the feeling Cap doesn't really have a plan.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:37
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PiedPiper posted:Government and subordination are a necessary evil, though. The impression I got was that Cap flies by the seat of his pants throughout this thing, but I don't see that as a bad thing. I don't buy that the conflict is that there is a problem, then Cap and Iron Man sat down and independently worked up solutions and then fight over which is the better one. This time Iron Man is the man with the plan and all Cap knows and really needs to know is that that plan is lovely.
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Apr 14, 2016 10:42
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gently caress, I didn't know C. Robert Cargil was writing Doctor Strange! As a Spill fan, this pleases me so much.
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Apr 14, 2016 11:28
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Elfgames posted:I'm still wondering why black panther is ok with this, does he have diplomatic immunity? He's the king of Wakanda, so if anyone would get immunity I think it would be heads of state. My guess is that he doesn't really have much of an opinion on the Accords, he's just after Bucky probably for something The Winter Soldier may have done in Wakanda. That would just make Tony a convenient ally. Alternatively, he's pissed about Hulk and Iron Man loving up Wakanda in AoU and absolutely does think the Avengers need oversight.
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Apr 14, 2016 13:35
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PiedPiper posted:Cap was born in 1920, the time of the First Red Scare, after the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. They didn't distinguish between communism and socialism in that period. A) there is no such thing B) he might've been born in 1920 but the more relevant historical context is he came of age during the Great Depression and watching the country pull out via WWII and The New Deal. Hell, the Soviets were nominally allies then C) he was an ice cube during the other Red Scare when America actually went around knocking over countries for being pinko Yeah he'd probably Feel The Bern.
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Apr 14, 2016 13:36
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Josh Lyman posted:One thing I don't get about Civil War is that Iron Man and Captain America are on opposite sides of what I would expect. I would think Tony would be a vigilante and Cap would be all truth justice and the America way. Cap is subverting the idea of what's best for America because he is disillusioned with what America stands for despite being its icon
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Apr 14, 2016 13:45
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Yeah, they've been writing stories about "Captain America the symbol of sincere, non-lovely American idealism fights lovely fake-patriotic corrupt authoritarian fucksticks in government" for like 30+ years. Practically the whole point of the character now is to play with the contrast between what America is supposed to represent and what it actually does. Both previous movies did this to varying degrees so it''s hardly surprising they haven't stopped with this one. e: Captain America is unambiguously a hero in his 2 movies because he constantly disobeys orders from authority figures that are wrong. It's not even subtext, it's just "the poo poo that happens in the movie." sean10mm fucked around with this message at 14:35 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 14:32
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Harlock posted:That's the point According to some of the reviews, Cap is disillusioned and distrustful of authority in this movie, and he hates the idea Stark keeps bringing up of ending or preventing the fight so everyone can go home. Cap has nothing in his life except the fight, and no home to go to.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:35
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Cythereal posted:Cap has nothing in his life except the fight, and no home to go to. Is this why he appears to be so protective of Bucky? Best friends and all that but Bucky committed some pretty serious war crimes.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:39
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Cythereal posted:According to some of the reviews, Cap is disillusioned and distrustful of authority in this movie, and he hates the idea Stark keeps bringing up of ending or preventing the fight so everyone can go home. Cap has nothing in his life except the fight, and no home to go to. That happens in AoU as well, and it's an interesting notion. When they have their conversation while chopping wood together, Tony says something like "To end the fight, isn't that the mission" and Cap just tears apart a log with his bare hands. That guy is not really all that happy with the idea of a world without conflict.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:41
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I said come in! posted:Is this why he appears to be so protective of Bucky? Best friends and all that but Bucky committed some pretty serious war crimes. From what I've gathered, yes. Cap sacrificed everything he was and might have been when he became Captain America, with one exception: Bucky. Bucky is the one and only lifeline Cap still has to the person he used to be. This was also apparently supposed to be Cap's main thrust in Age of Ultron: his greatest fear, as demonstrated by Scarlet Witch, is winning and having nothing to fight for. Cap dreads being a supersoldier in a world that doesn't need a supersoldier. Even Chris Evans brought it up in an interview, that he plays Cap as a person who doesn't put on a costume or gear to become a superhero, Captain America is his primary identity day in and day out, and this in Evans' mind is a large source of Cap's friction with people like Stark, Banner, and Romanov - people who punch their time cards when they put on the suits, then clock out at the end of the day and go back to being normal, everyday people.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:45
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Elfgames posted:I'm still wondering why black panther is ok with this, does he have diplomatic immunity? You can see at 0:40 in this trailer that he was at the UN when it was bombed, which was either done by Winter Soldier or was blamed on him. Also it's highly likely that his father King T'Chakas death is involved somehow because that's usually Black Panther's motivation when he first gets introduced.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:45
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I said come in! posted:Is this why he appears to be so protective of Bucky? Best friends and all that but Bucky committed some pretty serious war crimes. In a scene from the trailer, Bucky even tries to straight up shoot Stark, almost at point-blank range. Will be interesting to see how Cap sweeps this one under the rug. Edit: tagged the spoilery bit, maybe someone didn't see it.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:47
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Bunch of additional Civil War reviews are coming out. SPOILER Its a month away, could people here at least use the black bars when dicussing plot leaks? I'd hate to have to stop reading this thread.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:53
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Cythereal posted:From what I've gathered, yes. Cap sacrificed everything he was and might have been when he became Captain America, with one exception: Bucky. Bucky is the one and only lifeline Cap still has to the person he used to be. From the trailers, I really like the way in which Steve views Bucky, with compassion and understanding. There's this complex relationship between the two that for the audience feels uncomfortable because you know what Bucky did as a brainwashed soldier, but have to appreciate the loyalty Steve has to his best friend even though he almost died because of it.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:55
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I said come in! posted:From the trailers, I really like the way in which Steve views Bucky, with compassion and understanding. There's this complex relationship between the two that for the audience feels uncomfortable because you know what Bucky did as a brainwashed soldier, but have to appreciate the loyalty Steve has to his best friend even though he almost died because of it. Still, you have to reckon with the fact that Bucky has killed a shitload of people, and one point raised in the movie according to reviews is the fact that Bucky was brainwashed by Hydra for a long time. At best, he's massively, massively traumatized, and the UN - who created the Sokovia Accords - feel that Bucky should at best be in a very, very secure mental hospital for a long time.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:59
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PiedPiper posted:Cap was born in 1920, the time of the First Red Scare, after the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. They didn't distinguish between communism and socialism in that period. In the comics, like alot of his generation, he's a huge fan of FDR. So he's just liberal. EDIT: There was also that recent arc of him basically fighting the Donald Trump staffel, who were all up in arms about illegal immigration. Shageletic fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 15:00
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sean10mm posted:e: Captain America is unambiguously a hero in his 2 movies because he constantly disobeys orders from authority figures that are wrong. It's not even subtext, it's just "the poo poo that happens in the movie."
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Apr 14, 2016 15:02
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Josh Lyman posted:I don't remember the details of Cap 1, but you can't compare rooting out Hydra in Cap 2 with becoming a vigilante and revolting against an otherwise "good" US government. The army wanted him to be a poster, then he revolted and went rogue. Its been a consistent part of his character. The biggest misconception about Captain America among the public is that he is some sort of flag waving personifcation of ooh rah patriotism. What he has always been is just a person who keeps on fighting, against anything and anyone.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:07
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Shageletic posted:In the comics, like alot of his generation, he's a huge fan of FDR. So he's just liberal. Not that I think about it, are there examples of mainstream comic book protagonists who are unmistakably republican? Maybe Nick Fury?
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Apr 14, 2016 15:08
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Shageletic posted:The army wanted him to be a poster, then he revolted and went rogue. Its been a consistent part of his character. The biggest misconception about Captain America among the public is that he is some sort of flag waving personifcation of ooh rah patriotism. What he has always been is just a person who keeps on fighting, against anything and anyone.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:10
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PiedPiper posted:Not that I think about it, are there examples of mainstream comic book protagonists who are unmistakably republican? I hear Ant-Man is a proponent of small government. Very small. And ruled by a queen, for some reason.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:18
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Shageletic posted:Its a month away, could people here at least use the black bars when dicussing plot leaks? I'd hate to have to stop reading this thread. Sorry, I didn't think any of those review quotes were major plot leaks. I guess saying what act things from the trailers happen in is technically a spoiler. I agree though, after some of the general public gets to view it next week, 3 weeks before the US release, spoilers are going to start flying around and it's better to be on the safe side. I'm trying to go in blind.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:18
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PiedPiper posted:Cap was born in 1920, the time of the First Red Scare, after the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. They didn't distinguish between communism and socialism in that period. PiedPiper posted:Not that I think about it, are there examples of mainstream comic book protagonists who are unmistakably republican? Tony was, originally. Like the whole point of Iron Man was Stan Lee trying to see if he could get 60s teenagers to sympathise with a character that by all rights they should have hated. Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 15:40 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 15:22
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Josh Lyman posted:I don't think the MCU has done a good job of showing him as having serious character flaws. Why should he have serious character flaws? He's supposed to highlight real America's (and Americans') flaws by contrast with him.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:23
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PiedPiper posted:Not that I think about it, are there examples of mainstream comic book protagonists who are unmistakably republican? I can't think of ones that are both mainstream and protagonists but IIRC Lois Lane was very republican at one point.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:23
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sean10mm posted:Why should he have serious character flaws? He's supposed to highlight real America's (and Americans') flaws by contrast with him.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:26
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Josh Lyman posted:You don't think "What he has always been is just a person who keeps on fighting, against anything and anyone" is a character flaw? Also a man who doesn't know how to stop fighting because his only identity is as a soldier. That's a hell of a character flaw, especially for a man who's supposed to represent the best ideals of America.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:29
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Josh Lyman posted:You don't think "What he has always been is just a person who keeps on fighting, against anything and anyone" is a character flaw? I don't think that is an accurate description of him, so no.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:29
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I said come in! posted:Is this why he appears to be so protective of Bucky? Best friends and all that but Bucky committed some pretty serious war crimes. How can Bucky really be held responsible though? He's been in a mind-altered/brainwashed, fascist-controlled funk for most of the last 50 years, basically a barely sentient meatbag weapon. You may as well accuse white phosphorus of committing war crimes when it's the people who commit to use it who are actually responsible. It's not like he'd go out, kill Howard Stark on a Saturday then hook up with his bros on Sunday for beers, from what brief glimpses we were shown it looked like 'does a job, gets shoved back in the box until next time'.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:32
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In the movie universe, is Captain America feared though? Kinda interested in seeing which superheroes the public is scared of. Bruce Banner/the Hulk is a given, but who else does everyone mistrust?
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Apr 14, 2016 15:32
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Tezcatlipoca posted:I don't think that is an accurate description of him, so no. He is literally told "You''re a soldier without a war" and then strongly implies that he would rather keep fighting for what he believes in rather than ending a war. He also tells Nick Fury that he doesn't trust people who believe in world peace. Cap definitely has a case of forever war syndrome.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:35
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:He is literally told "You''re a soldier without a war" and then strongly implies that he would rather keep fighting for what he believes in rather than ending a war. He also tells Nick Fury that he doesn't trust people who believe in world peace. Also, look at his Scarlet Witch vision: his greatest fear is victory, the war ending. Bucky is, at best, a cyborg super-soldier with the world's worst case of PTSD. Who the gently caress would say yes, let's trust him with a gun and freedom to do whatever he wants because his best friend says he won't shoot anyone?
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Apr 14, 2016 15:37
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Sentinel Red posted:How can Bucky really be held responsible though? He's been in a mind-altered/brainwashed, fascist-controlled funk for most of the last 50 years, basically a barely sentient meatbag weapon. You may as well accuse white phosphorus of committing war crimes when it's the people who commit to use it who are actually responsible. In the movie (and probably in real life too) the argument against that is: "This guy murdered hundreds of people and if his excuse is that he was brainwashed, he could be activated again. He needs to at least stand trial or turn himself in for debriefing. Letting a mass murderer just walk around without even pretending to answer for his crimes is unacceptable. Also, he is wanted in dozens of countries and letting him roam free would damage U.S. relations with them and violate a U.N. treaty. Bucky Barnes was a nobody, who then became a mass murderer, there's no special reason to protect him from even getting a trial." Even a best case scenario defense of Bucky involves admitting that he was (maybe still is) a mentally ill person with a history of mass murder.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:40
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Shageletic posted:The army wanted him to be a poster, then he revolted and went rogue. Its been a consistent part of his character. The biggest misconception about Captain America among the public is that he is some sort of flag waving personifcation of ooh rah patriotism. What he has always been is just a person who keeps on fighting, against anything and anyone. What's interesting is that this is directly parralleled with Nick Fury in Winter Soldier, when Robert Redford explains that Fury had a similar situation early in his career, where he disobeyed a direct order to save the lives of hostages in Pakistan. Where Cap grew to believe that carrying a shield to defend against threats was enough, Fury learned from his grandfather's lesson to carry a gun in your lunch bag and make sure your potential threats know you have it, and Redfords character believed you should use that gun to kill threats before they even happen.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:42
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broken clock opsec posted:A) there is no such thing  Yes, there is. Plenty of people are all for individual rights and against big government. What in the world is this?
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Apr 14, 2016 15:44
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cvnvcnv posted:
You could argue though that some of these beliefs are misguided. Social and economic policy are connected to each other and a lot of people don't understand how having differing views on both creates a lot of confusing conflict. Conservative fiscal policy tends to hurt social progress.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:47
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