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So, yeah, does anyone have an answer to my main question we've kinda got sidetracked.
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Apr 13, 2016 12:03
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KingEup posted:So, yeah, does anyone have an answer to my main question we've kinda got sidetracked. I bought a Llano back in 2011 that I was gaming on up until this year, so I think you'll be fine. If a lovely K10 relic plays the games I bought from 2014 and up without serious performance degradation on a dGPU, I don't think you'll see a significant problem with purchasing a "modern" APU. AMD is fine for your usage scenario, but buy a case that'll handle the thermals. Not the one you picked. A Bad King fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 12:06
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CPU power hasn't improved significantly over the past decade -- thermals have. The i5-4210u (1.7ghz, 2-core with HT, 3MB cache, turbos to 2.7ghz) in my Yoga Pro 2 has roughly the same synthetic benchmarks and web experience of the A8-3870K (2.9ghz, 4-cores, 4MB, OC'd to 3.5ghz) I purchased for my desktop, but runs at a 5-15watt TDP vs a 100watt TDP and at a significantly lower clock. Edit: It also had roughly half the iGPU performance, but the U-series chip also has half the number of real cores, and that construction core you're looking at might have a 10-15% IPC improvement over that Llano. You're buying a CPU that struggles to keep up with a processor with the TDP less than that of a glove warmer. A Bad King fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 12:12
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Paul MaudDib posted:There's a thread on HardForums where he has been posting updates. He's currently going through RoHS and CE certification right now, which should be finished within a month or so tops. After that he's going to do a kickstarter for a run of 1500 units priced at ~250 EUR shipped.
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Apr 13, 2016 12:43
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KingEup posted:So, yeah, does anyone have an answer to my main question we've kinda got sidetracked. Serious answer, post a description of what you plan to do and your budget in the parts-picking megathread.
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Apr 13, 2016 12:52
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Rastor posted:Serious answer, post a description of what you plan to do and your budget in the parts-picking megathread. My main question was this: KingEup posted:I've had problems with integrated graphics actually supporting that odd rear end resolution but I hear the A10 supports the CCC drivers so I was wondering whether someone could confirm this as a supported resolution. Thanks. what has that got to do with the parts picking thread?
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Apr 13, 2016 12:55
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More side-tracking, but performance with integrated graphics seems to be heavily dependent on memory bandwidth. Make sure your memory is working in dual channel, and make sure to get the fastest memory your budget will allow. Get high speed memory (more gigahertz) and basically ignore latency/timings.
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Apr 13, 2016 13:11
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AFAIK the resolution issue should be fine, the APUs use full catalyst drivers just like a discrete GPU. A quick Google doesn't bring up any complaints wrt resolution either. I had issues with Intel onboard graphics (the older on the motherboard type) not supporting certain less common resolutions at a place I used to work. It was a driver issue they just didn't care about fixing.
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Apr 13, 2016 14:18
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KingEup posted:Well where is the chestnut above getting is evidence for the i3 being faster? It's not since the A10 is beating the i7-6700K with iGPU.
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Apr 13, 2016 18:23
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 at the people paying attention to the IGP benchmarks. Unless you are building a machine that physically cannot fit a discrete GPU of any kind there is an Intel build that outperforms it. Instead of buying a $150 APU, just buy a $50 Pentium G3258 and overclock it plus a $100 GPU (getting up to 7950/R9 280 territory there). The G3258 destroys the A10 series, period. Plus it means you can switch to an unlocked i5 down the road and an i5 plus a dGPU flat out wrecks an FX let alone an APU.In the benchmarks that matter on that page, the A10 is <1fps faster in two benchmarks and loses heavily in all the other benchmarks, plus it locks you into a socket that will have lovely single-threaded performance as long as it exists.
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Apr 13, 2016 21:03
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Paul MaudDib posted:
that pretty much was what we were discussing, the dude wanted to put an APU in this to play dota with HMS Boromir fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 21:05
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Cardboard Box A posted:What does a DAN A4 get you at 250 EUR that a RVZ02 doesn't at 120 EUR? A 50% reduction in case volume. PBCrunch posted:More side-tracking, but performance with integrated graphics seems to be heavily dependent on memory bandwidth. Make sure your memory is working in dual channel, and make sure to get the fastest memory your budget will allow. Get high speed memory (more gigahertz) and basically ignore latency/timings. Yes, IGP is heavily dependent on memory bandwidth. Both APUs and Skylake show noticeable gains from using faster memory and Skylake shows similar gains from using DDR4 instead of DDR3L (there's no good reason to use DDR3L, I assume that it exists mostly for laptop manufacturers cheaping out). This is pretty much to be expected, there is only so much graphics performance you can squeeze out of the 20-30 GB/s that DDR3 and DDR4 provide. Anything except the lowest tier of dGPUs will be using GDDR5 and likely getting at least 5x the bandwidth and performance. That's why IGPs are such a bad idea at the moment (HBM could make this much more feasible).
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Apr 13, 2016 21:09
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Tanreall posted:No idea how fast the i3-6100 actually is but here's some benchmarks of the i7-6700K losing to the A10. Paul MaudDib posted:
At not reading the thread at all.
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Apr 13, 2016 21:18
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HMS Boromir posted:that pretty much was what we were discussing, the dude wanted to put an APU in this to play dota with Not gonna work. As has already been pointed out, the A10-7850K is a 95W TDP CPU and that case only supports 65W or less. I think it would be iffy even underclocked, personally. If you really must have something that small, I would look at the Alienware Alpha mini-PCs or the Gigabyte Brix series. ~$500 buys you an engineered solution with an actual discrete graphics chip. It will be a mobile graphics chip so it's not gonna rock Crysis or anything, but it'll be fine at DOTA. You're gonna be running at least $400 for that build anyway ($150 CPU, $75 mobo, $50 memory, $50 case, $50 PSU, etc). Tanreall posted:
I read your benchmarks. Fact is IGP performance doesn't really matter at all, Haswell and Skylake IGPs are just fine for solitare or DOTA or whatever and any IGP is going to get creamed going up against any discrete GPU in any game that requires more performance. You are wasting your money buying based on an IGP, period. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 21:26
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edit: nevermind
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Apr 13, 2016 21:29
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Paul MaudDib posted:I read your benchmarks. Fact is IGP performance doesn't really matter at all, Haswell and Skylake IGPs are just fine for solitare or DOTA or whatever and any IGP is going to get creamed going up against any discrete GPU in any game that requires more performance. You are wasting your money buying based on an IGP, period. You're being dumb.
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Apr 13, 2016 21:49
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Paul MaudDib posted:Not gonna work. As has already been pointed out, the A10-7850K is a 95W TDP CPU and that case only supports 65W or less. I think it would be iffy even underclocked, personally. I would be wary of that Brix model with the GTX 760 in it, supposedly it's loud as gently caress AND still throttles down to a comically low frequency when loaded. It seems like they made poor engineering decisions and still decided to release the thing anyways, putting in a desktop GPU and letting it throttle from 1GHz all the way down to 200MHz just seems silly.
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Apr 13, 2016 22:14
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Paul MaudDib posted:Not gonna work. As has already been pointed out, the A10-7850K is a 95W TDP CPU and that case only supports 65W or less. I think it would be iffy even underclocked, personally. Ease up dude. This is the AMD thread and while IGP's are of course inferior to most all Discrete chips, they have their uses and aren't nearly as bad as they once were. Only recently have Intel IGP's have actually gotten good though, and even then, mostly only in the mobile/NUC sectors for whatever reason. I have always though though, if AMD can put 1G HBM on their high end APU's the things would absolutely fly and really put pressure on Intel to actually push their IGP harder then just special case Iris Pro's for MAC/NUC's.
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Apr 13, 2016 22:18
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An APU is fine for the scenario described, it just needs a case that can handle cooling a 95w part.
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Apr 13, 2016 22:57
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pienipple posted:An APU is fine for the scenario described, it just needs a case that can handle cooling a 95w part. Yes, but that goes against the narrative of this thread! /s Seriously, AMD sells chips even today -- to people, who can weigh the price and google "AMD A10-7XXX" to read what CNET or Anandtech has to say, no less! We shouldn't be cargo culting Intel just because they're objectively better when AMD may provide a solution of "fast enough" for my nephew, my grandmother, my cousin James, and that weird kid who spends too much time on an internet forum. In real world performance, a large number of people will never stress a A10 any more than they will an i3, and may find the A10 to be good enough simply because you can run the latest Civilization game. Yes, the platform is ancient...but so is the Core2Duo, and you see those slushboxes from 2007 still finding utility in libraries and hotels across the nation.
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Apr 13, 2016 23:19
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the a8-7600 or a10-7800 are 65w parts. sure they aren't overclockable but they have the same graphics as the 50/60/70/k versions of their respective bin. they have their uses, niche as they are, and if you just want a moba playing pc it's pretty hard to not go for an APU because that's actually the cheapest way to go about it (and no, HD graphics 520 is still pretty lackluster for those sorts of things) Anime Schoolgirl fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Apr 13, 2016 |
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Apr 13, 2016 23:29
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The case seems to support raisers for a PCIe card. Just get one of those and stick a 750ti along with a G3258?
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Apr 14, 2016 01:02
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Ragingsheep posted:The case seems to support raisers for a PCIe card. Just get one of those and stick a 750ti along with a G3258? I don't think it does, that's a very slim mITX case and I see no mention of GPU support. But yeah, that's the general approach in most cases. If you can spare even a little more space for even a low-end discrete GPU the G3258 is going to clean up, or a low-end Alienware Alpha is going to best it at a very slightly higher price point. Thanks for the reference on that case though, guys, I'm looking at the M350 for rebuilding my TV PC or maybe a Linux system. I can get an Athlon 5350+mobo combo from Microcenter for $40+tax right now. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 02:35
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Would taking the IO shield from this: http://www.minipc.de/en/catalog/il/1509 And using a PCIe raiser like this: http://www.amazon.com/PCI-E-Express-Extender-Flexible-Extension/dp/B008BZBFTG work? e: probably not. Ragingsheep fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 03:13
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Ragingsheep posted:Would taking the IO shield from this: http://www.minipc.de/en/catalog/il/1509 As specified in the description: as long as you use an Intel DN2800MT or Mitac PD10BI Half-Height ITX mainboard (i.e. thin-itx). e: and probably not more than a 1x riser. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 03:19 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 03:15
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Paul MaudDib posted:As specified in the description: as long as you use an Intel DN2800MT or Mitac PD10BI Half-Height ITX mainboard (i.e. thin-itx). Actually would be pretty cool and good to see AMD start building boards to this specification, as a choice between a J1900 and an 5350 would have been a nobrainer, or an FX8800P with a low profile HSF. Since low end is AMDs thing right now they should honestly be pushing these super compact, standardized, modular platforms with Excavator/+ and Zen. At least it would be good for thier OEMs (no one buying the mobile platforms? Make embedded mini-itx boards!) I think the options are an A10-7860K for now (using the M350 case), accepting a slightly bigger, much "less" VESA compatible case such as the M300 and getting an Intel CPU + cheap GPU (more expensive), or waiting for Stoney/Bristol to appear in desktop space with AM4 and DDR4 to make APUs really viable. Intel is never really going to get off their rear end and make a competitive iGPU platform for desktop.
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Apr 14, 2016 07:25
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FaustianQ posted:Intel is never really going to get off their rear end and make a competitive iGPU platform for desktop. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856102166
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Apr 14, 2016 15:29
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FaustianQ posted:Actually would be pretty cool and good to see AMD start building boards to this specification, as a choice between a J1900 and an 5350 would have been a nobrainer, or an FX8800P with a low profile HSF. Since low end is AMDs thing right now they should honestly be pushing these super compact, standardized, modular platforms with Excavator/+ and Zen. At least it would be good for thier OEMs (no one buying the mobile platforms? Make embedded mini-itx boards!) I'm not so sure about that - notebooks and tablets are the future (and the present honestly) as far as the bulk of computer sales go; and discreet graphics cards in laptops have always meant major sacrifices in battery and portability - the demand is there for powerful iGPUs. I'm sure Apple in particular would be very keen to have access to such a thing.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:52
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The Lord Bude posted:I'm not so sure about that - notebooks and tablets are the future (and the present honestly) as far as the bulk of computer sales go; and discreet graphics cards in laptops have always meant major sacrifices in battery and portability - the demand is there for powerful iGPUs. I'm sure Apple in particular would be very keen to have access to such a thing. But simultaneously, the gross power requirements for the CPUs attached to AMD iGPUs means they can't be competitive in the same market.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:14
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As of this moment, anyhow.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:39
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The Lord Bude posted:I'm not so sure about that - notebooks and tablets are the future (and the present honestly) as far as the bulk of computer sales go; and discreet graphics cards in laptops have always meant major sacrifices in battery and portability - the demand is there for powerful iGPUs. I'm sure Apple in particular would be very keen to have access to such a thing. Yeah, I really think Apple would be thrilled to see AMD come back to a competitive status in re Intel. There were some pretty compelling rumors a few years ago that they'd built some AMD-powered MacBooks...I think MacBooks Air, maybe? I'm not sure. Which makes sense, they probably run a test like that whenever a new AMD chip generation comes out.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:44
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I don't feel like Skull Canyon counts, it's too price prohibitive compared to cheaper solutions that can beat it outright or get within 90% of capability. Kind of reminds me of the core M compute sticks. The Lord Bude posted:I'm not so sure about that - notebooks and tablets are the future (and the present honestly) as far as the bulk of computer sales go; and discreet graphics cards in laptops have always meant major sacrifices in battery and portability - the demand is there for powerful iGPUs. I'm sure Apple in particular would be very keen to have access to such a thing. I'm not sure how this is an answer to my post when what I was pointing out is there aren't any good Intel iGPU solutions for desktop? They seem perfectly happy to stuff good things like all the GT3/4 eDRAM enabled CPUs into mobile, so I'm not questioning Intel's ability to develop and make it, but rather deploy it. Also my impression of mobile being good for sales has less to do with it's own impressive performance gains per year and more with people finding new ways to throw a laptop across a room, down a flight of stairs, or find weird sugary substances that can get past the keys. People treat mobile products like hell, if only because they get more opportunity to do so.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:50
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mediaphage posted:Yeah, I really think Apple would be thrilled to see AMD come back to a competitive status in re Intel. There were some pretty compelling rumors a few years ago that they'd built some AMD-powered MacBooks...I think MacBooks Air, maybe? I'm not sure. Which makes sense, they probably run a test like that whenever a new AMD chip generation comes out. Thrilled nothing. Absolutely ecstatic, more like. They're a business, of course they hate Intel not having any competition. They can't wave a quote from AMD in front of Intel and make spooky noises threatening to move, in order to negotiate better prices. Win/win for them, even if any AMD products don't pan out. Also, re: AMD-powered Macs, I'm 65% certain that the reason why they haven't refreshed the trashcan Mac Pro is because they're Apple and of course they can, but mostly because they're holding out to see what AMD can offer. SwissArmyDruid fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 16:58
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Apple is probably ready to throw money at AMD if Zen and Raven Ridge are any good, just so they can threaten for lower prices on Intel's better processors. What's the over/under on how much AMD would need top be paid to put Radeon iGPU on Apple ARM SoCs? I'd say baseline at 100 million, since AMD might want to push K12.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:10
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FaustianQ posted:Apple is probably ready to throw money at AMD if Zen and Raven Ridge are any good, just so they can threaten for lower prices on Intel's better processors. AMD sold Adreno to Qualcomm, so..... 
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Apr 14, 2016 17:26
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tbf that was during amd's "need to keep the lights on" phase where they had to jettison every asset just to stay in business" phase half thanks to Intel Backroom Deals(tm) and the other half having a consistently incompetent board of directors
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Apr 14, 2016 18:27
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A Bad King posted:We shouldn't be cargo culting Intel just because they're objectively better when AMD may provide a solution of "fast enough" for my nephew, my grandmother, my cousin James, and that weird kid who spends too much time on an internet forum. Cargo culting Intel, is that where we stick Intel Inside and vPro stickers on our AMD boxes and pretend this will make it perform like it has a CPU that was actually made this decade?
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Apr 14, 2016 18:39
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:tbf that was during amd's "need to keep the lights on" phase where they had to jettison every asset just to stay in business" phase half thanks to Intel Backroom Deals(tm) and the other half having a consistently incompetent board of directors Intel wasn't too much smarter selling off XScale to Marvell and doing nothing with the ARM license they still hold since. They could have been Qualcomm but instead dropped out of the Mobile ARM race at probably the worse time to do exactly that.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:51
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EdEddnEddy posted:Intel wasn't too much smarter selling off XScale to Marvell and doing nothing with the ARM license they still hold since. They could have been Qualcomm but instead dropped out of the Mobile ARM race at probably the worse time to do exactly that. In all fairness an ARM license is nothing special. The licensing requirement there is "does the check clear", it's in no way special like their x86 license.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:54
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EdEddnEddy posted:Intel wasn't too much smarter selling off XScale to Marvell and doing nothing with the ARM license they still hold since. They could have been Qualcomm but instead dropped out of the Mobile ARM race at probably the worse time to do exactly that. Intel didn't have integrated modems and their LTE solution still lags behind so no they couldn't have been exactly what Qualcomm became. But yeah they screwed the pooch in mobile in a ton of ways WhyteRyce fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 19:07
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