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Tigey posted:Counter-protests is one method of opposing them, and I highly doubt anyone here disagrees with that. Oh you poor sweet innocent child. Not so far in this particular thread but multiple people in past iterations thereof have bemoaned the mean antifa depriving fash of their freedom of speech and assembly.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:22
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Tigey posted:one which has some uncomfortable parallels with the acts of the fascists themselves This is pseudo-liberal equivocation bullshit
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Apr 14, 2016 16:22
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Prince John posted:Time to introduce a contained area where they can give their lives more meaning. Hey I'm sure the government would support this as it would also entertain the peasants. I'm going to give my empty life meaning now, I'm going to the pub.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:26
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Going to a counter-protest where the protesters are literally there to beat the poo poo out of the first black and/or left-wing person they see requires a certain lack of fear of getting into a fight. People like Ober who are excited about it are not intending to burst into some douchebag's house to stab him to death in front of his dear nan, but are happy to counter-protest knowing full well that even if they were peaceful as heck the fisticuffs would come to them. The excitement is more from knowing they're about to ruin some fash's day whether it comes to blows or not.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:29
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Please add violencechat to the list of verboten chats along with nuke, boat, bread, fry, etc, tia
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Apr 14, 2016 16:30
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Tigey posted:See above. No, see what you did there was make up a nasty boogeyman antifa (I bet your mental image wore a super scary mask!) with which to paint a whole group, after conceding that self defence and defence of others from fash- using violence if necessary- is legitimate. If fash organise to march through a city, do you expect the defence of that city to just spontaneously happen, for people to just happen to be standing around ready for a group of tooled up neo-nazis, or is some level of organisation allowed before you end up with groups of fash swarming small groups? Because if you are allowing some organisation, and agree that they must be stopped using violence if necessary, then where are you really going from here? That it's okay to bash a fash, just feel bad about it afterwards?
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Apr 14, 2016 16:35
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Cerebral Bore posted:You seem to be big on non-violence. Then let me ask you this: Would you (and your fellow likeminded liberals) be willing to go out and stand square in the way of a nazi march and tell them that what they're doing is unacceptable and that you're there to stop them and stay there blocking their march even when they start grinding your face into the pavement (which they very likely will do)? I just don't see how violence is the solution in this case. I'm Irish and our history has taught us how successful you can be in utilizing certain kinds of violence to achieve your aims. A big part of the successful application of violence is how it can be done while bringing the public over to your side. I don't see how you are going to bring your average schlub over to your side when the 'good guys' look like this:  and leave a trail of destruction almost indistinguishable from the nazis in their wake.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:35
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Bedshaped posted:I don't see how you are going to bring your average schlub over to your side when the 'good guys' look like this: No one is trying to win over the 'average schlub'. They're trying to keep the streets clean of nazis so the 'average schlub' can live in peace.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:37
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Renaissance Robot posted:Please add violencechat to the list of verboten chats along with nuke, boat, bread, fry, etc, tia
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Apr 14, 2016 16:38
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Guavanaut posted:Fried bread is good. Bash anyone who disagrees.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:39
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It is established well enough that nazis are bad so they don't need to concern themselves with winning anyone over to their position.Renaissance Robot posted:Please add violencechat to the list of verboten chats along with nuke, boat, bread, fry, etc, tia Which was bread chat?
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Apr 14, 2016 16:40
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Bedshaped posted:I don't see how you are going to bring your average schlub over to your side when the 'good guys' look like this: I'm fairly sure you prefer your street gangs in snazzy matching uniforms by hugo boss
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Apr 14, 2016 16:40
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Puntification posted:It is established well enough that nazis are bad so they don't need to concern themselves with winning anyone over to their position. It's a bap not a roll etc.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:44
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Tesseraction posted:Going to a counter-protest where the protesters are literally there to beat the poo poo out of the first black and/or left-wing person they see requires a certain lack of fear of getting into a fight. I get the feeling that regardless of what they're arguing right now, the posters on the wrong side if this argument started digging primarily due to finding this apparent bloodthirstiness (even toward fascists) to be distasteful. They probably don't disagree that fascists are bad and can't be allowed free reign, but are now too deeply invested in the debate to admit that it's basically a tone argument. Guavanaut posted:Fried bread is good. Anything is good fried. Even fascists, probably :hannibalsay:
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Apr 14, 2016 16:45
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Overminty posted:It's a bap not a roll etc. ahh i remember now shoulda called it bap chat really
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Apr 14, 2016 16:47
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Bedshaped posted:and leave a trail of destruction almost indistinguishable from the nazis in their wake. Well except for the lack of violence against ethnic minorities, LBGT people, etc. You could say that's the central premise of antifa.
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Apr 14, 2016 16:47
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Bedshaped posted:and leave a trail of destruction almost indistinguishable from the nazis in their wake. I note that you didn't answer my question, so I'm guessing that you wouldn't actually stand up to nazis non-violently. Also it's interesting that you can't really distinguish between nazis who got chased out of town because they deliberately came there to start poo poo and members of minorities who got beat up and had their places of businesses trashed by nazis for existing. Tigey posted:Organising and attending counter-protests with the specific aim of engaging in political violence against the fash (to intimidate, discredit, or just release violent urges), is however something very different, and one which has some uncomfortable parallels with the acts of the fascists themselves. Criticising Antifa who act in that manner IS legitimate for that reason, and claiming that such criticism is a literal defence of fascists is wrong. I've yet to see much anything indicating that these people exist outside your head, so your attempts to cast aspersions on the people actually standing up to the nazis is still a way of defending the loving nazis. EDIT: It's also pretty loving myopic to reduce an analysis of a social movement to scrutinizing the individual motivations of its members, but I gues that's also a form of liberalism. Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 16:49
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Renaissance Robot posted:I get the feeling that regardless of what they're arguing right now, the posters on the wrong side if this argument started digging primarily due to finding this apparent bloodthirstiness (even toward fascists) to be distasteful.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:02
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Tigey posted:I haven't dug the hole deep enough yet, nor am I proud enough to disagree with this. I was probably triggered by finding various anecdotal arguments/enthusiasm in this thread distasteful (plus the accusation of defending fascists if I disagreed with the tone), and accept Tesseraction's point about 'excitement at ruining the fash's day' being easily confused for 'excitement at cracking fash skulls'. I don't have sufficient direct knowledge of either fascist or antifa movements to make it worth me digging this hole any deeper. You see this pissflaps?
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Apr 14, 2016 17:03
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Tigey posted:I haven't dug the hole deep enough yet, nor am I proud enough to disagree with this. I was probably triggered by finding various anecdotal arguments/enthusiasm in this thread distasteful (plus the accusation of defending fascists if I disagreed with the tone), and accept Tesseraction's point about 'excitement at ruining the fash's day' being easily confused for 'excitement at cracking fash skulls'. I don't have sufficient direct knowledge of either fascist or antifa movements to make it worth me digging this hole any deeper. you were triggered by people being anti-fascist... this is concerning
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Apr 14, 2016 17:09
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forkboy84 posted:The only thing that will set us free from the DWP is death unfortunately. Though given they wrote to me demanding money they accidentally paid my granny after she died, don't count on it being immediate  E: Also battering nazis is still good and proper. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 17:15
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Cerebral Bore posted:I note that you didn't answer my question, so I'm guessing that you wouldn't actually stand up to nazis non-violently. I would happily do so. By non-violent I assume you mean peacefully protesting and employing self-defence if attacked. Pediga are outnumbered here by about 10 to 1 by the violent kind of antifa and 40 to 1 by anyone peacefully protesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z68yTJWXm5g
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Apr 14, 2016 17:22
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Fans posted:And as I've said a few times, I don't mind this. But there's a difference between "I'm going to stop them from stomping on anybody" and "I am here to hit fascists" I'm not sure why this point is so important to you - the end result is the same. The fash get bashed and can't go around kicking in minorities. Ghosts Love Wubs posted:To briefly touch back on UC and sanction-chat I am currently dealing with an impending sanction that is now approaching the tribunal stage. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with the tribunal and what I could expect from it. Also any advice would be much appreciated. I want to grab this up from the depths of bashchat because it's an actual goon in-thread asking for advice people might be able to give. I'm not on UC myself, but if it goes at all like my DLA appeal, they'll decide they can't be hosed with an actual tribunal on a Friday afternoon, call us up, and say "Yep we've ruled in your favor." A lot will hinge on who handles the tribunal though, I'd presume it's not the same group who does the ruling, but Tories probably make that a forlorn presumption. One bit of advice I can give for sure; get some sort of legal aid. There's still some surviving charities who provide that kind of help, CAB can probably point you in the right direction.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:26
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goddamnedtwisto posted:Oh you poor sweet innocent child. Not so far in this particular thread but multiple people in past iterations thereof have bemoaned the mean antifa depriving fash of their freedom of speech and assembly.  Just leaving this here too for no reason:  Also from the interbellum, the Daily Express thinking that a (non-existent) boycott is more a declaration of war than literal pogroms and genocide. 
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Apr 14, 2016 17:27
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Out of curiosity, are there any thread watchers who are in the police and could answer why participants in fascist demos are not arrested unless committing actual violence? Isn't the Nazi party a proscribed organisation? Isn't waving a Nazi flag around breaching the peace at the very least and probably incitement to violence or racial hatred? They may be trying to avoid provoking violence, but surely it would be easier for them to nip the Fascist march in the bud and then avoid being stuck in between the Fascists and Anti-Fascist, presumably getting pelted from both sides. Zeppelin Insanity posted:I think trying to institute an EU minimum wage right not would not only get the UK laughed at again (though at least from the "oh, they've gone to being idealistic children rather than petty children, isn't that cute" perspective, so it is an improvement), and if it didn't and somehow passed, it would be disastrous. Thanks for posting this - I read it with exactly the same feelings. It does make me worried sometimes when Corbyn comes out with some random poo poo like that.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:28
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Bedshaped posted:I would happily do so. By non-violent I assume you mean peacefully protesting and employing self-defence if attacked. No, what I asked what this: Cerebral Bore posted:You seem to be big on non-violence. Then let me ask you this: Would you (and your fellow likeminded liberals) be willing to go out and stand square in the way of a nazi march and tell them that what they're doing is unacceptable and that you're there to stop them and stay there blocking their march even when they start grinding your face into the pavement (which they very likely will do)? Also using violence in self-defence isn't non-violent. In fact, they're kinda contradictory concepts.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:32
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Mister Adequate posted:I want to grab this up from the depths of bashchat because it's an actual goon in-thread asking for advice people might be able to give. Thank you for the advice. I've currently exhausted all the "please reconsider the sanction" chances so it has to go to a tribunal now. Apparently it is an independent body that performs them but finding information has been tricky. I guess CAB is my next option at this point. It's all rather annoying, it is all because of how poorly UC has been implemented in my local job center. They claim I didn't turn up to an appointment I did turn up to because the UC system is running alongside the old "unused" Job Seeker system which apparently will automatically mark you as away if the job coach doesn't stop it. And of course the movement away from paper records to doing it all online means I don't have physical evidence I was there. So yeah anyway again thanks for the advice.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:36
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As a peace offering, let us hear both sides of the argument. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-36045987 quote:A mother has been banned from naming her baby Cyanide after the poison which Adolf Hitler took before shooting himself. Against. quote:Lady Justice King said "even allowing for changes in taste, fashion and developing individual perception", Cyanide was a very odd name to give to a baby girl. For. quote:The mother said Cyanide was linked with flowers and plants and was "responsible for killing Hitler and Goebbels and I consider that this was a good thing". The mother makes a good point.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:40
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Prince John posted:Thanks for posting this - I read it with exactly the same feelings. It does make me worried sometimes when Corbyn comes out with some random poo poo like that. I wouldn't call it totally random - its an idea thats been floated around a lot by pro-European Social Democrats. In making this speech, Corbyn is trying to signal that there is a progressive case to be made for supporting continued EU membership and engagement. I'm not sure how this will go down amongst Labour voters, but it will be welcomed on the European left (at least what shattered remnants are left of it) and may help him with building relationships and alliances with continental counterparts (which is going to be crucial to challenge the austerity narrative at the European level). The practical concerns listed by Zeppelin are pretty spot on - any minimum wage across the EU would certainly not be flat given the significant disparities between the richest and poorest members, but indexed according to various national economic criteria. There are other problems relating to political will and funding - it would require further redistribution of resources between EU members to fund this - which is politically toxis atm so has literally no practical chance of being implemented in the near future. So its more about sending signals and trying to influence narratives than any practical proposal
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Apr 14, 2016 17:43
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Prince John posted:Out of curiosity, are there any thread watchers who are in the police and could answer why participants in fascist demos are not arrested unless committing actual violence? Isn't the Nazi party a proscribed organisation? Isn't waving a Nazi flag around breaching the peace at the very least and probably incitement to violence or racial hatred? As was said above, they can't just arrange on social media "let's have a pint and beat up some Muslims", the police would be on top of that before it started, so they dress it up as a planned march, which has safeguards and some formulaic speeches about what they supposedly stand for. I've not personally seen any Nazi flags either, it's usually St. George's Crosses, Union Flags, the odd BUF flash or similar, and some carefully selected Not-Nazi flags like the War Ensign of the German Empire. They may have been less subtle about that at other demos though, I don't know. I'm glad that the police aren't allowed to shut down any and all protests they don't like short of blatant threats to public order, but that situation does either require a very strong police presence at short notice for fascist marches whenever they do decide to cross that line, or for the community to be highly active in opposing them before and during any escalation.
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Apr 14, 2016 17:53
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Tesseraction posted:Going to a counter-protest where the protesters are literally there to beat the poo poo out of the first black and/or left-wing person they see requires a certain lack of fear of getting into a fight. To make this even more stark: if we were just apolitical thugs looking for a fight (a bullshit claim by every measure) we'd just kick the gently caress out of the fash in their own homes in our city. We know who they are, where they live, where they meet, where they drink. They plaster it all over facebook, and we know we far outnumber them at home. It'd be the simplest thing in the world. But we don't. Instead we get up at 5 o'clock in the loving morning and drive for hours to oppose them where they march. Because we're a political movement with political aims carried out via direct action. E: and, interestingly, two members of our group have been harassed by local fash when walking alone in the city in the last couple months. It's almost as it the neonazis are the real nazis... makes you think communism bitch fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 17:55
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Prince John posted:Thanks for posting this - I read it with exactly the same feelings. It does make me worried sometimes when Corbyn comes out with some random poo poo like that. Eh, Corbyn's idea was tied to the cost of living in each country rather than a flat wage across all 28 (or however many it is now) nations. It's a good idea not at all random. Oberleutnant posted:Instead we get up at 5 o'clock in the loving morning and drive for hours to oppose them where they march. Because we're a political movement with political aims carried out via direct action. Unfortunately liberals find direct action really upsetting because it might cause a brief & minor interruption or inconvenience to their life & that really is worse than people wanting to stomp on the heads of minorities. While ignoring that direct action is infinitely more moral than the inaction they propose. forkboy84 fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 17:58
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I'd imagine the European minimum wage would work like: set a minimum wage for all of Europe which is appropriate for the poorest countries, individual countries with higher minimum wages keep theirs, then slowly increase the European wage until its the same across Europe.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:01
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By the way, if you guys want a laugh, Cathy Brennan – yes, that one – is trying to get me kicked out of the Lib Dems for calling her a fake goth. I'm not even joking.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:08
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Prince John posted:Out of curiosity, are there any thread watchers who are in the police and could answer why participants in fascist demos are not arrested unless committing actual violence? Isn't the Nazi party a proscribed organisation? Isn't waving a Nazi flag around breaching the peace at the very least and probably incitement to violence or racial hatred? I'll give you the loaded answer: It's because the police are corrupt as gently caress and think the fascists have the right idea and the anti-fascists are all student layabouts. All that casual racism that bubbles in the background, imagine that only backed up with force. That's the police. Just normal idiot people given power because of their job. They don't like it when the nazis start breaking things because that's too much but they totally agree that immigrants should gently caress off back where they came from and "WERE FULL!".
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Apr 14, 2016 18:11
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maybe anti fascists are the real fascists hrmmm makes u think
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Apr 14, 2016 18:11
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XMNN posted:maybe anti fascists are the real fascists hrmmm makes u think Yeah this thread is such a disappointment sometimes. Lets naval gaze until the literal nazis murder us. Boo loving hoo.
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Apr 14, 2016 18:12
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TinTower posted:
I'm surprised the Express is actually more sneaky about its wording than the Daily Mail was back then, considering nowadays the Mail is sneakier about its language than the Express' whoreish cocksucking of Westminster. FinalGamer fucked around with this message at 18:17 on Apr 14, 2016 |
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Apr 14, 2016 18:13
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XMNN posted:maybe anti fascists are the real fascists hrmmm makes u think You are the MP for Dover and I claim my £5
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Apr 14, 2016 18:14
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imagine making an effort to stay in the lib dems
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Apr 14, 2016 18:17
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