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tonytheshoes posted:The new Caroline Alexander translation of The Iliad is $.99 on Amazon today--anyone read this version? I've never read The Iliad before, but it looks like a good one... I had a look at the first page and it seems fine but not as nice as the Lattimore translation. For comparison: Alexander version Wrath - sing, goddess, of the ruinous wrath of Peleus' son Achilles, that inflicted woes without number on the Achaeans, hurled forth to Hades many strong souls of warriors, and rendered their bodies prey for the dogs, for all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished; sing from when they two first stood in conflict - Atreus' son, lord of men, and godlike Achilles. Lattimore Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians, hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting of dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished since that time when first there stood in division of conflict Atreus’ son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus. Lattimore's is more poetic I guess, it's written in metre, while Alexander says she's more for trying to make it seem conversational, or like being told a story. Alexander also says she tried to translate line by line so hers will be more directly faithful to the original than Lattimore's, because Lattimore needed to change words around to get the metre right. Lattimore's Iliad is at times one of the most beautiful things I've ever read so I'd say go for that personally, but if you're not into the somewhat archaic style of the Lattimore or you care a lot about accuracy for some reason then the Alexander looks like an okay shout.
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Apr 14, 2016 00:08
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Caustic Chimera posted:Guys, you should read The Shore by Sara Taylor. It's this book of interconnected stories (I'm beginning to think I like this type very much. Recommend me some) with this place as the setting. It jumps back and forth in time, and is centered around these two families. It's a pretty dark book, showing the uglier side of people, but it's a really compelling read. Read it. The Fun Parts by Sam Lipsyte is that kind of book and is good. There's no uglier side it's all hideous the most beautiful person on the planet squeezes pus out of their face. I'm excited for the High Rise movie to come out so we can watch british people be horrible to dogs and each other aka an average weekend on that miserable island. And jeremy irons i guess. Anyways I read Seven Houses in France by Bernardo Atxaba a little while back and enjoyed it very much, does anyone one have any other basque books to reccomend? or really anything melancholy and violent will do
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Apr 14, 2016 08:23
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WatermelonGun posted:The Fun Parts by Sam Lipsyte is that kind of book and is good. There's no uglier side it's all hideous the most beautiful person on the planet squeezes pus out of their face. I'm not sure why goodreads gave me an Italian description of this book, but once I found an English description it sounded very interesting. My library doesn't have it, so I'll have to buy it I guess, but whatever, I wanted to buy some books anyway. Thanks! I could go for something that's less of a downer.
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Apr 14, 2016 14:26
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CestMoi posted:I had a look at the first page and it seems fine but not as nice as the Lattimore translation. For comparison: Thanks for the opinion! I broke down and bought it anyway since it's 99 cents, but I will have my wife grab the Lattimore version from the library she works at and read a little bit of both.
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Apr 14, 2016 15:52
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anyone got any reqs for kurdish literature (novels or poetry)? whether it's from the diaspora or from within turkish, iraqi or iranian kurdistan doesn't matter
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Apr 14, 2016 18:24
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I've never really read that many plays and it's something I'd like to read more of. I know you should really see plays but it's difficult actually finding productions that are close by! I've been reading a lot of Sarah Kane recently who I think is an absolute genius and was wondering if anyone could recommend me any other playwrights? Not necessarily like Kane but preferably modern-ish. Also, about to read a bunch of Virginia Woolf novels for university. Was wondering what the thoughts on her are around here? Personally, I think she's a genius.
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Apr 15, 2016 01:33
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HHammond posted:Also, about to read a bunch of Virginia Woolf novels for university. Was wondering what the thoughts on her are around here? Personally, I think she's a genius. Eh. She's no Suzanne Collins.
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Apr 15, 2016 05:44
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Speaking of the Iliad, I'm nearly finished with the Fagles version and god drat is it good. Lattimore is the most accurate, but I don't seem to get on with the longer-lined six-beat Iliads - if you're reading for pleasure instead of studying then Fagles is excellent imo. Here's Achilles before he kills Hector in Lattimore: quote:IL.22.260 Then looking darkly at him swift-footed Achilleus answered: In Fagles: quote:A swift dark glance I mean yeah he's taken some liberties but they make for a far more stirring story than some dude who's supposed to be pissed about his best friend being dead standing there blandly saying "Yep you're gonna die  ". Lattimore's accuracy also leads to weird constructions like "pay in a lump" and "one-foot horse" (instead of rearing horse) which I really dislike. YMMV.
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Apr 15, 2016 12:13
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I'm not sure the Lattimore is especially more accurate, and beyond a certain point that's a stupid thing to want for a translation anyway. I love it for capturing what I think of as the feeling of Epic Poetry, which is a feeling I don't really get when I read unmetred translations for whatever reason. Also Achilles seems equally pissed in both of those trnaslations to me, just Lattimore's doesn't have an exclamation mark at the end. Iliad translation is a cool subject so I looked up that section in Pope's Iliad "Talk not of oaths (the dreadful chief replies, While anger flash'd from his disdainful eyes), Detested as thou art, and ought to be, Nor oath nor pact Achilles plights with thee: Such pacts as lambs and rabid wolves combine, Such leagues as men and furious lions join, To such I call the gods! one constant state Of lasting rancour and eternal hate: No thought but rage, and never-ceasing strife, Till death extinguish rage, and thought, and life. Rouse then thy forces this important hour, Collect thy soul, and call forth all thy power. No further subterfuge, no further chance; 'Tis Pallas, Pallas gives thee to my lance. Each Grecian ghost, by thee deprived of breath, Now hovers round, and calls thee to thy death." Which is a lovely translation to read in little segments like this but trying to read the whole thing is difficult to say the least
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Apr 15, 2016 12:54
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You're not allowed to say bad things about Lattimore because it sounds like how I translate Latin
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Apr 15, 2016 14:35
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CestMoi posted:I love it for capturing what I think of as the feeling of Epic Poetry This is where you erred.
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Apr 15, 2016 16:26
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HHammond posted:I've never really read that many plays and it's something I'd like to read more of. I know you should really see plays but it's difficult actually finding productions that are close by! I've been reading a lot of Sarah Kane recently who I think is an absolute genius and was wondering if anyone could recommend me any other playwrights? Not necessarily like Kane but preferably modern-ish. You should check out the Angry Young Men if you were into Sarah Kane. Pinter is definitely your best bet, Kane was a late-life student of his from what I remember. John Osbourne and Edward Bond are good too but don't have the surrealist bent that Kane and Pinter do. If you want something more contemporary check out Jez Butterworth's Jerusalem or Mojo.
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Apr 15, 2016 16:59
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:This is where you erred. drat cant believe I thought about my personal preferences liek some kind of idiot.
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Apr 15, 2016 17:01
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So today I are been mostly reading William Morris, especially his earlier stuff The Defence of Guenevere. This is from before he properly imbued his medievalism with Marxism, so it's all a bit airy-fairy and sweeping in its social order (certainly not as complex as News from Nowhere), but if we're talking about appropriating and translating time-periods and the like then I think this is a really good approximation of how drat cool and even pretty Middle English can be. Importantly, to make this a bit on topic, it captures that spirit of a medieval story so well, while being a bit different. It's so cool to read someone who finds something new and interesting to do with the most cliched of cliched scenes: the lovers meeting in the garden.quote:There, see you, where the soft still light yet lingers, Somehow this gets me, it just bypasses all the cynicism I've been bred to have. It just so perfectly captures the tone of a medieval love lyric (enraptured, slightly sad) and really interestingly makes Guenevere a Wife of Bath type character who can't help but recalling how sexy Launcelot is even when lashing out at her detractors.
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Apr 15, 2016 20:30
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I just finished Voices from Chernobyl and it was great and haunting but it also gave me nightmares about fleeing an irradiated post-apocalyptic city but then zombies showed up because I am a loving nerd
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Apr 15, 2016 21:13
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Guy A. Person posted:I just finished Voices from Chernobyl and it was great and haunting but it also gave me nightmares about fleeing an irradiated post-apocalyptic city but then zombies showed up because I am a loving nerd Haha nice one. That's definitely up there on my TBR. But to celebrate a payrise I bought Zone, House of Leaves, poems by Ginsberg and The Sisters Brothers. There was a gorgeous 400th ann. edition of Don Quixote which had me salivating, goddamn.
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Apr 16, 2016 08:45
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I popped in an Oxfam shop in Kensington yesterday, and somebody had dumped a box of world lit superstars in there or something, because I got Arlt's 'The Seven Madmen', Walser's 'The Tanners', Nothomb's 'Loving Sabotage', Ugrešič's 'The Ministry of Pain' and Ogawa's 'The Diving Pool' for 10 pounds while a friend of mine got Kadare and an anthology of Eastern European poetry. if I didn't have to take a plane I would've gotten 10 books more, so whoever's in London should really check it out over the weekend.
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Apr 16, 2016 10:36
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Oxfams usually have a book department with a section for old copies of classics and rares put out at random, it's only a tiny portion of what they have and if you ask them nicely they will check the stockroom for you or let you go up there and rummage.
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Apr 16, 2016 11:50
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A friend of mine was listening to an audio book of Crime and Punishment, and while I don't think he liked it, and hasn't listened to it since, we were talking and he said one thing he did like was that Dostoyevsky didn't use too many similies and metaphores, "unlike most western authors". This seemed like a really weird generalization to me but maybe I just haven't noticed it, so does the illustrious child loving thread have anything to say about this? Also please help me decide whether to read Mishima's Spring Snow or Gaddis' The Recognitions next, thanks.
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Apr 17, 2016 07:31
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hooked on Fauxnics posted:This seemed like a really weird generalization to me but maybe I just haven't noticed it, so does the illustrious child loving thread have anything to say about this? I suppose I can only really speak in weird generalities too, but my instinct is that our tastes really are informed a lot by simile and metaphor, so much so that we barely notice. A lot of what we associate with subtlety and artifice (which we like and are always good) definitely comes from this notion that they're necessarily operating on a deeper level than the literal which is duh, obvious, and requires no work (which we don't like so much and is bad). Often a literary analysis can boil down to "This means that", because that's what we look for. If you read medieval literature you get a sense of just how much tastes can change. In the late medieval period (and probably in the early too, I don't know) there was less of a distinction between high- and low-brow literature. What we would term sophisticated medieval literature, like Chaucer, rubbed shoulders with medieval romances, often seen now as formulaic poo poo, to society's loss. While Chaucer uses a lot of stuff like metaphor, irony, all that jazz which we associate with 'craft', medieval romances got a lot of mileage out of being incredibly literal. This might be part of why we dislike them. Like, Richard the Lionheart isn't a metaphorical name, he literally ate a lion's heart as a child, and that's how he dominates as a hero. So his ship eats Saracens when he sails to the Holy Land and spews them out. And he himself eats Saracens. If you count the number of similes in Middle English romances I'd be surprised if you come up with more than five per romance. One of the many patronising adjectives people would use about such romances is 'clunky' or 'primitive' because of this, which is a Bad Opinion because they're really enjoyable and interesting. We like to think of literature as a progression, standing on the shoulders of giants towards ever greater levels of craft etc etc. So yeah, maybe your friend has a point. But who doesn't like simile and metaphor, come on?
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Apr 17, 2016 13:48
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Part of me wants to say that's (generally) a totally valid complaint, but it's sort of like your friend is upset that they have to do the heavy lifting or extra processing while reading instead of the author doing it on the page for him/her. I don't know Dostoevsky's work well enough to really talk about it, but I do have a literary hate-boner for Andre Breton and this is tangentially related:First Manifesto of Surrealism posted:If the declarative style, pure and simple, of which the sentence just offered is an example, is almost the rule in novels, it is because, as one must recognise, the authors’ ambition is quite limited. The circumstantial, needlessly specific, nature of their respective writings, leads me to think they are amusing themselves at my expense. They spare me not a single one of their issues of characterisation: will he be fair-haired, what will he be called, will we encounter him in summer? So many questions, resolved once and for all, haphazardly; the only power of choice I am left with is to close the book, which I take care to do at about the first page. And the descriptions! Nothing can be compared to their vacuity; it is nothing but the superimposition of images from a catalogue, the author employs them more and more readily, he seizes the opportunity to slip me postcards, he tries to make me fall in step with him in public places: http://poetsofmodernity.xyz/POMBR/French/Manifesto.htm Maybe your friend is really into Breton.
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Apr 17, 2016 14:09
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J_RBG posted:But who doesn't like simile and metaphor, come on? Transparent extended metaphors can also lead to a work's message or meaning coming across as dopey and obvious. Basically I guess my point is we may all like good simile and metaphor.
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Apr 17, 2016 20:27
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I tend to like good things, and dislike bad things.
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Apr 17, 2016 20:32
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Mr. Squishy posted:I tend to like good things, and dislike bad things. It's the opposite for me.
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Apr 17, 2016 20:53
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Disjointed philosophical tangents are the highest form of literary art
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Apr 17, 2016 20:57
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CestMoi posted:It's the opposite for me. explains the Calvino obsession
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Apr 17, 2016 22:19
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Apr 18, 2016 00:02
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Ras Het posted:Disjointed philosophical tangents are the highest form of literary art Agreed
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Apr 18, 2016 00:50
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Actually videogames in VR are highest form of literary art
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Apr 18, 2016 14:39
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I'm gonna read Anathem
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Apr 18, 2016 15:05
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It's not good
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Apr 18, 2016 15:53
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Apr 18, 2016 15:57
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Man, Christopher Brookmyre really wanted a quote on the cover of a book.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:44
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Isn't that book about debate and philosophy but also about a how a certain school of thought is just evil and crazydumb? Because it seems rather self-defeating.
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Apr 18, 2016 16:45
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i don't know, why don't you read the kilopage+ book by cyberpunk author neal stephenson, the author who looks like this, and then get back to me
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Apr 18, 2016 17:37
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I always choose my books based on how with-it the author's style is
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Apr 18, 2016 17:57
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blue squares posted:I always choose my books based on how with-it the author's style is the fact that he looks like a goober is, in this case, a Dickensian indication that "the dude who spent $500k failing to make a 'realistic' swordfighting game" is in fact a huge goober and his books are bad we could discuss this more in one of the three stephenson or cyberpunk threads currently on the front page of this particular forum.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:21
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i wish real books had covers this awesome. i'd be able to read proust without my friends thinking i'm pretentious
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Apr 18, 2016 18:31
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All of the things in this book seem to be the names of real things, but with one letter changed.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:38
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 Suspected Reference Sarthians: Parthians
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Apr 18, 2016 18:45
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