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Griffen posted:What happened to the principles of free speech? It's good to remember that most of Western Europe has restrictions on speech that wouldn't in a million years get by a US court.
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Apr 15, 2016 16:09
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Griffen posted:I am loathe to simply sum up Merkel's actions as "welp, there goes liberal Europe surrendering to the fundamentalist Middle East again..." as I am aware that Merkel is moving to have the portion of the law that allows such prosecutions removed. However, I do wonder what it says about the state of affairs when it's even potentially acceptable to prosecute someone for saying something insulting (slander/libel aside, as I doubt this applies), whether or not it's satire. What happened to the principles of free speech? The rapid erosion of press rights and speech rights in Turkey should be a warning to Europe, I would think. Orban should've been a warning to Europe. This is nothing new and has been going on for about a decade by this point.
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Apr 15, 2016 16:16
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Rent-A-Cop posted:It's good to remember that most of Western Europe has restrictions on speech that wouldn't in a million years get by a US court. Yeah, the USA champion free speech to an extent that I'm fine with Europe not imitating.
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Apr 16, 2016 00:44
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Mozi posted:Sounds like it's a good time for every other TV personality to read the poem, then. Would be quite a show if Ergodan sued them all. Not exactly what you proposed but pretty close https://twitter.com/COdendahl/status/721245628978827264
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Apr 16, 2016 10:45
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GaussianCopula posted:Not exactly what you proposed but pretty close I don't think this is quite what cold war strategists envisioned when they coined Mutually Assured Destruction but I feel it applies.
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Apr 16, 2016 10:52
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Springtime! The next rush over the mediterranean has begun and according to Amnesty only one in six is from "traditional" asylum seeking countries. The Mare Nostrum operation saved 4000 people from the sea last week alone. The majority are Nigerians it appears, the most populous country in Africa. Most land in Italy after being transported there by the Italian or other navy. The EU machine has degreed that every person must be registered, and their asylum request must be individually investigated. The Nigerians (and the rest) will be placed in a refugee center to await their personal inquiry by Italians, which they don't want since when and if Italy handles their case they will not be given a permanent residence permit, and even when, basically nothing but a place to sleep without other benefits, and the Italians have no reason to (and in fact rather won't) follow up on them so they vanish as they have done this far and head towards the canal. But this time Austria has barbed wire, and Switzerland has military on the borders. What next? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 16, 2016 11:23
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Please do not post your racist fantasies in this thread.
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Apr 16, 2016 12:16
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YF-23 posted:Please do not post your racist fantasies in this thread. Please answer these two questions: #1 What was racist about that post #2 What was the fantasy part (stats were provided by http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/country.php?id=105) edit: tldr and won't bother with the link; the majority of the new comers are from Nigeria, Gambia, Senegal, Guinea and Cote d'ivoire Ligur fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 12:29
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The fantasy part was where you were speculating about what will happen down the line, the racist part was where you were smug about it. e; I'm not saying it's unlikely to happen, I'm saying don't be a racist poo poo.
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Apr 16, 2016 12:32
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YF-23 posted:The fantasy part was where you were speculating about what will happen down the line, the racist part was where you were smug about it. Uhhh. The Swiss are about to post armoured vehicles on the border and the Austrians also have military (incl volunteers) deployed and are considering fences. I still don't get it, what is racist about posting a link about these real life events, and what is my fantasy part? Explain to me: what is racist in this case.
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Apr 16, 2016 12:39
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I already told you. As an additional thing, Nigeria might not be Iraq, Syria, or Afghanistan, but it's by no means safe.
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Apr 16, 2016 12:57
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YF-23 posted:I already told you. No, you didn't. You just called me "smug". Explain what is racist in this case. If you can. You just call some poo poo "racist" but can't explain it, can you? What was the fantasy part, tell me? Also yes, the slums of Nigeria or Indonesia or Brazil are not safe or fun to be in compared to, say, Nordic welfare states.
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Apr 16, 2016 13:00
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Well as being smug is tantamount to racism, and from your post you sounded sort of smug, we can infer that you are in fact a horrible racist.  I wonder if this head of state insult bullshit would have occurred two years ago. Have there been any other recent prosecutions under this law? I doubt Merkel wants to do anything to antagonise Erdogan right now, considering he's been the saviour for her idiotic migrant policy.
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Apr 16, 2016 13:01
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Ligur posted:No, you didn't. You just called me "smug". Explain what is racist in this case. If you can. You just call some poo poo "racist" but can't explain it, can you? You were being smug while talking about refugees and migrants (quite realistically) being met with closed borders, barbed wire, and armed soldiers in the future. I might have misread the tone of your post, and if I did I am sorry, but I do not think I did. Boko Haram is worse than just slums.
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Apr 16, 2016 13:08
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YF-23 posted:You were being smug while talking about refugees and migrants (quite realistically) being met with closed borders, barbed wire, and armed soldiers in the future. I might have misread the tone of your post, and if I did I am sorry, but I do not think I did. You have not explained poo poo or answered either of my questions. You can say any post in D&D is "smug". You can call anything whatever you like as long as you just read between the lines and decide what you want to read between the lines, that's true. But you are not answering why you flipped out and called me a racist fantasist. What was racist, and what was my "racist fantasy"? edit: (Nigeria has, what, 170 million living there. They can't be boated over the sea, airlifted or just track walked to Europe to fix Boko Haram. Boko Haram has probably less than 10k fighters. Also if you are in Nigeria, you can flee Boko Haram by moving to another location in Nigeria. Is this fun? No. But should you travel to Italy or Sweden to escape Boko Haram? Also no.) Ligur fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 13:13
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Ligur posted:No, you didn't. You just called me "smug". Explain what is racist in this case. If you can. You just call some poo poo "racist" but can't explain it, can you? This is D&D, so yes, "racist" is just shorthand for "i don't like you". (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 16, 2016 13:28
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Ligur posted:Uhhh. The Swiss are about to post armoured vehicles on the border No they're not, because that would be insane. The forces sent to the border are infantry, and their job is not just to help guard the border, but also to take care of the arriving refugees. Ligur posted:#2 What was the fantasy part (stats were provided by http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/country.php?id=105) From this link: The UNHCR posted:The vast majority of those attempting this dangerous crossing are in need of international protection, fleeing war, violence and persecution in their country of origin.
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Apr 16, 2016 13:50
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Pluskut Tukker posted:No they're not, because that would be insane. The forces sent to the border are infantry, and their job is not just to help guard the border, but also to take care of the arriving refugees. So just mechanised infantry (which deploy armour if not main battle tanks) and riflemen instead of Leopard battalions  Like, what is the difference in the end? quote:From this link: Yes indeed, there are hundreds of millions if not billions of people who face violence, persecution, poverty and so on in their countries and who would have it better in Sweden. There are by far and wide more people in Africa living in failed or semi-failed states than there are Europeans living in poverty. If we take in 100 million - a year - about the same number will increase the next year due birth. See any problem here... edit: that was dishonestly made post in regards that the assumption was that Pluskut wanted to "prove me wrong" because he thinks Europe, or rather welfare EU states, should receive everyone with no limit. Perhaps he does not think so. Sorry for being smug if that is the case. Smug being racis' Ligur fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 15:04
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Ligur posted:So just mechanised infantry (which deploy armour if not main battle tanks) and riflemen instead of Leopard battalions I take it you don't read German, and got your link to this story from Breitbart instead? The article says: "Von Panzern war nie die Rede. Von Kampfpanzern schon gar nicht. Wohl aber von Panzergrenadieren. Und das ist ein Unterschied". I'll translate for you: "There was never any question of armoured vehicles being used. And definitely not tanks. 'Panzergrenadiere' would, however, be deployed. And that's a difference." Because, like I said, it would be insane to use armoured vehicles for border control. What are you going to use them for, shoot people? Ligur posted:Yes indeed, there are hundreds of millions if not billions of people who face violence, persecution, poverty and so on in their countries and who would have it better in Sweden. There are by far and wide more people in Africa living in failed or semi-failed states than there are Europeans living in poverty. If we take in 100 million - a year - about the same number will increase the next year due birth. I don't want to make any other implications than pointing out that your links either suck (tabloids like the Daily Express and the Kronezeitung, seriously??) or don't support your argument.
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Apr 16, 2016 15:37
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Pluskut Tukker posted:I take it you don't read German, and got your link to this story from Breitbart instead? Aahhum. Mechanized infantry, or even just riflemen is still just military on the border, isn't it? Or if not, why not? Or didn't those links talk about military on the borders at all to begin with? If not, that's cool. quote:I don't want to make any other implications than pointing out that your links either suck (tabloids like the Daily Express and the Kronezeitung, seriously??) or don't support your argument. Yeah sure. I don't know what you think my argument was (feel free to tell me) but there are 1+ billion Africans. And Asians. They cannot be resettled here to fix anything. As for asylum seekers or migrants over the sea they are mostly Nigerians, Ghanalese, Gambians, and so on this year when arriving with a boat, like in the link. You call that a lie? What does *not* support my argument (whatever the argument you think is)? Just give me a clue?
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Apr 16, 2016 15:53
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I see Gaussian called backup to gun down refugee boats.
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Apr 16, 2016 16:53
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CommieGIR posted:I see Gaussian called backup to gun down refugee boats. Nah, the current plans are for the Libyan government (if/when it actually takes control) to officially invite the EU/Frontex/NATO/certain countries to help them secure their shore, which means the ships of those countries will be permitted to operate in their waters and deliver the people they rescue from boats right back to Libya.
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Apr 16, 2016 18:21
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So, PJ Harvey has released a new album, and it includes political commentary on the refugee crisis. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ReW0jJkag8 Her interpretation of it seems to be based on the idea that it is a continuation of a cycle of misery turning round and round in the Balkans: "The enormous refugee crisis in Europe had been news for months. I spent some time on the Greek and Macedonian borders, and in Serbia, before traveling into Kosovo. It was happening in and through territories associated with recent conflicts in Kosovo and the wider Balkans. The idea of cycles, wheels and repetition once again being all too apparent and necessary to make."
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Apr 17, 2016 01:40
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GaussianCopula posted:Nah, the current plans are for the Libyan government (if/when it actually takes control) to officially invite the EU/Frontex/NATO/certain countries to help them secure their shore, which means the ships of those countries will be permitted to operate in their waters and deliver the people they rescue from boats right back to Libya. Whatever floats your xenophobic brownshirt boat, dude.
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Apr 17, 2016 04:29
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Gaussian and ligure are very smug about poor brown people not being allowed in Europe, personally I find it kinda weird how much they seem to enjoy it.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:52
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drilldo squirt posted:Gaussian and ligure are very smug about poor brown people not being allowed in Europe, personally I find it kinda weird how much they seem to enjoy it. They seem to be pointing out (in a roundabout way) that the EU can't take every single migrant in the world and shouldn't be expected to. It's a pretty reasonable stance as far as these kinds of stances go.
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Apr 17, 2016 06:01
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But Lebanon can, on account of being much wealthier and stable than the EU.
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Apr 17, 2016 07:54
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Kassad posted:But Lebanon can, on account of being much wealthier and stable than the EU. Hypothetical: if France got nuked would everyone surrounding France be more or less torn up over taking millions of French than they are about taking millions of Syrians.
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Apr 17, 2016 08:15
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blowfish posted:Hypothetical: if France got nuked would everyone surrounding France be more or less torn up over taking millions of French than they are about taking millions of Syrians. If something like that were to happen, would the refugees be justified in travelling to some far-off country they have no prior connection to (Sri Lanka, for example) instead of seeking refuge in neighbouring countries?
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Apr 17, 2016 08:26
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steinrokkan posted:So, PJ Harvey has released a new album, and it includes political commentary on the refugee crisis. Well at least she isn't bono. http://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/apr/13/bono-plan-combat-isis-comedians-amy-schumer-chris-rock
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Apr 17, 2016 08:34
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blowfish posted:Hypothetical: if France got nuked would everyone surrounding France be more or less torn up over taking millions of French than they are about taking millions of Syrians. I assume just as annoyed because no country has infrastructure set up to take on millions of extra people. Your hypothetical doesnt work with this situation though. More accurate would be: If china, japan and indonesia (we have to use countries with vastly different cultures) suddenly came to Europe with no money or language skills, would it be the same? OR since we are strawmanning, if australia, the US and ireland get nuked, would the Saudis take everyone in (also include everyone living in 3rd world countries)? OR as a broad question: Can any one place take everyone who doesn't want to be where they live?
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Apr 17, 2016 08:47
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You know I like the idea of human rights, but I don't like paying to uphold human rights, let the poor nations do it.  Like seriously, feel however you want about economic migration but complaining about asylum seekers moving too far when re-shuffling their entire existence is kinda morally bankrupt.
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Apr 17, 2016 09:41
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Xoidanor posted:You know I like the idea of human rights, but I don't like paying to uphold human rights, let the poor nations do it. I don't think you should blame the individual, but on a systemic level I don't think it's wrong to give asylum seekers the protection they seek without a golden ticket to a much better life otherwise you are combining asylum with economic migration, which will lead to massive problems.
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Apr 17, 2016 11:08
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Xoidanor posted:You know I like the idea of human rights, but I don't like paying to uphold human rights, let the poor nations do it. Its a horrible situation and im sure no-one is taking any joy from the fact that the EU can't possibly house every refugee who wishes to go to the EU. Thats the reality though. There arent millions of houses sitting around empty and millions of jobs that everyone likes. If every country pitched in, there would be much better outcomes. Ironically, the EU and Merkel in particular would have better support if nothing had been said to refugees at all. Every other continent has done sweet gently caress all and aren't copping anywhere near the same sort of backlash.
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Apr 17, 2016 12:15
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Baxta posted:Every other continent has done sweet gently caress all and aren't copping anywhere near the same sort of backlash. Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey (the part where refugees are, at least) are in Asia.
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Apr 17, 2016 12:22
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Xoidanor posted:You know I like the idea of human rights, but I don't like paying to uphold human rights, let the poor nations do it. Have you considered that there are other factors than economics involved? People aren't interchangeable, culture and education levels play a role. Simply put, there is no sense in having Syrian refugees move past their neighbouring countries (where the language and culture is similar) to some distant European country where they will not fit in due to the culture being too different and them being economically unproductive due to being too poorly educated. As for the economic burden, this could be lightened by giving financial and material aid to the neighbouring countries where most of the refugees are. Baxta posted:Its a horrible situation and im sure no-one is taking any joy from the fact that the EU can't possibly house every refugee who wishes to go to the EU. Thats the reality though. There arent millions of houses sitting around empty and millions of jobs that everyone likes. This. The most sensible course of action in these circumstances seems to be housing most of the displaced people in refugee camps in neighbouring countries or calm parts of their own country. Other countries would give aid proportional to their resources in order to run these camps at a decent standard of living. Some refugees with special needs for healthcare or protection might be dispersed to more distant countries, but in manageable numbers. Kopijeger fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 13:12
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blowfish posted:Hypothetical: if France got nuked would everyone surrounding France be more or less torn up over taking millions of French than they are about taking millions of Syrians. Are we talking French people or 'French' people? ----------------
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Apr 17, 2016 14:30
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Baxta posted:They seem to be pointing out (in a roundabout way) that the EU can't take every single migrant in the world and shouldn't be expected to. Something something gunning down refugee boats. Oh, and Turkey is totally a stable and healthy state right now.
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Apr 17, 2016 14:56
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Kopijeger posted:Simply put, there is no sense in having Syrian refugees move past their neighbouring countries (where the language and culture is similar) 2.7 million Syrian refugees are currently registered in Turkey. Syria is a majority Shia country that speaks Arabic, Turkey is a majority Sunni country that speaks Turkish. Please explain how these cultures are similar, and please try not to mention basket weaving or snake charming. And given that a lot of the diaspora are fleeing from religious extremists, I'd say moving to nominally secular countries like France or Sweden makes sense considering if I was being persecuted for being atheist the last place I'd want to go is a) another Islamic theocracy or b) a Christian fundamentalist country like Hungary or Poland.
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Apr 17, 2016 15:05
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Iraq is majority Shia. Syria is Sunni. And saying the rest of the world isn't doing their part makes you a pretty huge piece of poo poo or massively ignorant. The world has 60 million refugees. Turkey or Lebanon alone have taken more or as much as all of Europe. And it is not like Europe is dividing it equally either, about a dozen countries are carrying the load. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 15:14
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