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Hong XiuQuan posted:And yet murder carries a life sentence with minimum 30 years sentence. I'm not convinced that premeditation in Israeli law is so different to malice aforethought in UK law. What I'm saying is that as long as it cannot be demonstrated that he was not acting on a whim the prosecution will have a difficult time pushing for a murder charge, this is demonstrated in a variety of precedents. Yes had the perp been a palestinian the charges would have likely been more severe, but that's not quite as relevant. I would actually be rather shocked if Azaria actually gets convicted in a criminal trial, so let's just wait and see and get pissed off together when the time comes. Annnnnnyway, if you hear a faint thumping sound in the distance that's the drums of war coming from the Gaza border. There was allegedly a tunnel-exit coming from Gaza found near a kibbutz near the border fence, heavy IDF demolition equipment has entered Gazan territory yesterday and an air raid siren was sounded in the vicinity, IDF officials have released statements to the Israeli media to the tune of "We do not want an escalation and we believe it's in Hamas best interests to avoid one as well", two days ago there were big headlines about IDF preparations for the next campaign, etc. And after all, it's almost been two years since Operation Gaza Bloodbath V so it seems we're just about due for another one.
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Apr 15, 2016 06:59
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So do you think someone at AIPAC poo poo a brick during the Democratic debate last night when Sanders talked about Israel's disproportionate response in Gaza? A ton of news outlets are running with stories today about how it represents a huge shift in the national discussion on the topic.
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Apr 16, 2016 01:45
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Probably. It's also a huge reminder of how much of an aberration the past few decades have been. Reagan basically flipped his poo poo on Israel after Sabra and Shatila (he even privately told the Israeli PM what they were doing was a "holocaust"), nowadays American presidents just ignore Israeli massacres.
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Apr 16, 2016 01:52
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Valhawk posted:So do you think someone at AIPAC poo poo a brick during the Democratic debate last night when Sanders talked about Israel's disproportionate response in Gaza? A ton of news outlets are running with stories today about how it represents a huge shift in the national discussion on the topic. They've had a bad year or three, there were a bunch of very smart Israeli strategy-types who went  when Netanyahu decided it would be a good idea to turn support for Israel into a partisan issue and now a (Jewish!) Democratic Presidential candidate is breaking the seal. 
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Apr 16, 2016 02:02
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Kajeesus posted:Also that the neo-nazi thinks Israel has the right ideas and that this is apparently a good thing. There's a huge debate among white supremacists since 9/11 between "Jews are the enemy" and "Jews are a useful ally against the real enemy, Arabs".
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Apr 16, 2016 02:53
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GreyjoyBastard posted:They've had a bad year or three, there were a bunch of very smart Israeli strategy-types who went
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Apr 16, 2016 03:08
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"reagan was right and good" - xandu
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Apr 16, 2016 03:31
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Avshalom posted:"reagan was right and good" - xandu On Israel/Palestine, he actually showed a heart at times. I don't have a problem admitting that.
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Apr 16, 2016 03:33
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"reagan was a baby-kissing caramel melting moment and he makes me horny" - xandu (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 16, 2016 03:43
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Valhawk posted:So do you think someone at AIPAC poo poo a brick during the Democratic debate last night when Sanders talked about Israel's disproportionate response in Gaza? A ton of news outlets are running with stories today about how it represents a huge shift in the national discussion on the topic. Maybe to the mainstream American news, but the Israel lobby already hated Sanders - he's been pissing them off for some time now. Even before that, they weren't big fans of Obama, particularly during the last couple of years, and Israel has come up plenty of times thanks to things like the Iran deal and BDS. The only real shift in the debate thus far is that most of the usual mouthpieces in the US don't have the balls to wave him off as an anti-Semite the way they usually do when this debate happens.
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Apr 16, 2016 03:49
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FlamingLiberal posted:Considering Hillary wrote an op-ed saying that she wanted to maintain close ties with Israel (specifically Bibi), this is not likely to result in any real change. I will accept baby steps. More important to me is that this is one more thing where Bernie can help nudge the party in a positive direction.
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Apr 16, 2016 06:23
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Pope Guilty posted:There's a huge debate among white supremacists since 9/11 between "Jews are the enemy" and "Jews are a useful ally against the real enemy, Arabs".
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Apr 16, 2016 08:18
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Watermelon City posted:So what will it take for Israel to grudgingly regard Palestinians as allies? Aliens coming down from space most likely
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Apr 16, 2016 14:28
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Watermelon City posted:So what will it take for Israel to grudgingly regard Palestinians as allies? "I'm not some Republic serial villain, Bibi. I did it twenty minutes ago."
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Apr 16, 2016 15:10
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People aren't allies just because they're buddies, they're allies because they need each other's help against a common threat. There is no scenario in which something would emerge as a threat against which the Israeli would need help from the Palestinians. Besides, you know, what's already happening with the occupation dynamics where the Israeli are glad to receive help from some Palestinians against other Palestinians, of course. rscott posted:Aliens coming down from space most likely No, not even that. In a "war of the worlds" scenario you'd look for allies who have high technology and strong firepower. Palestinians aren't that, what with being an oppressed, divided population living under occupation, so what help could they bring to the table in exchange for spending resources protecting them instead of Israel's own citizens? Wouldn't make sense.
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Apr 16, 2016 16:54
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Watermelon City posted:So what will it take for Israel to grudgingly regard Palestinians as allies? Israel is allied with the Palestinian Authority.
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Apr 17, 2016 02:53
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Thanks for bringing up the corrupt, bloated bureaucracy that is the Palestinian Authority. They definitely have the interests of palestinian human rights and, eventual statehood at the vanguard of all their policies. Please stop posting now, you are bad at it.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:24
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You have two options as far as Palestinian governance and they're both lovely in their own ways. If Israel were to throw up their hands and say, welp, no partner, guess it's full steam ahead with settlements you'd complain too. It's either them, or nothing, although I'm sure you do prefer the latter as a decent plurality of anti-Zionists really don't seem to give a poo poo at all about Palestinian quality of life and want to do things that would kill thousands of people and destroy their economy and lead to mass human suffering like start another intifada or outright open warfare in Israel proper.
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Apr 17, 2016 19:28
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Ah, so the point emerges. The palestinians are worthy of self-determinism only as long as they vote for who we want them to. You might also want to stop being coy about the reason why there are only "two options for palestinian governanance." You can be as invidious as you want regarding the palestinians but there are very demonstrable reasons for this, least of all being the allowance of islamic radicalism among the population, the paralysis of higher education faculties that serve palestinians, or simply the barbarity of military occupation. Ultramega fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 19:43
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Not even remotely connected to my post in any way, shape, or form. Was that non sequitur seeded by Ariel into Avshalom's cavernous vagina? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 17, 2016 21:39
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To paraphrase you, if you didn't understand my response I'm in no way beholden to further explain it.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:17
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If you're a Palestinian you've got no option as far as Palestinian governance is concerned and not having options is lovely in every possible way.
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Apr 17, 2016 23:26
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Ultramega posted:Thanks for bringing up the corrupt, bloated bureaucracy that is the Palestinian Authority. They definitely have the interests of palestinian human rights and, eventual statehood at the vanguard of all their policies. Please stop posting now, you are bad at it. He was right on the mark, though. Israel allied with a group they see as less of a threat in order to present a united front against a common enemy of both themselves and that group.
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Apr 18, 2016 00:02
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They sure don't seem very allied when negotiations roll around. Or any time they interact at all.
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Apr 18, 2016 01:02
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Volkerball posted:They sure don't seem very allied when negotiations roll around. Or any time they interact at all. They certainly go to some effort to make it seem that way, but the IDF collaborates very closely with the PA security forces against their commpn enemy, Hamas and other militant groups. Despite what the political echelons say about each other, the security cooperation between Israel and the PA against other Palestinian factions is quite strong.
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Apr 18, 2016 02:35
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Main Paineframe posted:They certainly go to some effort to make it seem that way, but the IDF collaborates very closely with the PA security forces against their commpn enemy, Hamas and other militant groups. Despite what the political echelons say about each other, the security cooperation between Israel and the PA against other Palestinian factions is quite strong. The US and Iran came to a deal based around security. That doesn't make them allies, or even on friendly terms.
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Apr 18, 2016 02:52
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Main Paineframe posted:They certainly go to some effort to make it seem that way, but the IDF collaborates very closely with the PA security forces against their commpn enemy, Hamas and other militant groups. Despite what the political echelons say about each other, the security cooperation between Israel and the PA against other Palestinian factions is quite strong. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall when the PA and Hamas tried to sign a unifying peace agreement(something I feel is necessary and good) Israel seized the PA's entire revenue stream for months and destroyed everything in an entire fourth of Gaza. Like, rather than friends or allies against a common foe, it seems to me more like someone trying to keep a hostage cooperative by making an example of what life could be like.
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Apr 18, 2016 03:13
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Volkerball posted:The US and Iran came to a deal based around security. That doesn't make them allies, or even on friendly terms. Does the Palestinian Authority care about anything other than their maintaining their lavish villas in Cyprus?
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Apr 18, 2016 03:59
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tentative8e8op posted:Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall when the PA and Hamas tried to sign a unifying peace agreement(something I feel is necessary and good) Israel seized the PA's entire revenue stream for months and destroyed everything in an entire fourth of Gaza. And then the PA threw Hamas under the bus in exchange for an advantageous position in the Gaza reconstruction (which they still managed to botch). It's three factions which all dislike each other, all making alliances of convenience with one another to screw over the third, based on the situation and relative power. The reconciliation deal was going terribly anyway, neither side seemed serious about actually implementing the concessions they'd promised.
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Apr 18, 2016 04:46
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Kim Jong Il posted:Does the Palestinian Authority care about anything other than their maintaining their lavish villas in Cyprus? So now they are Israeli puppets? Ignoring the fact that this completely undermines your point about Israel being "allied" with any Palestinian body, you're way off base. Pretty sure Israel wasn't very happy about releasing prisoners as concessions to the PA during negotiations, or the PA applying to UN charters and the ICC very publicly to stick their thumb in Israel's eye. Israel is not politically aligned with anyone who wishes to unlock the ball and chain on Palestines ankle, because at the end of the day, they are not open to giving up concessions on basic human rights that would allow Palestine to thrive as a normal nation. That's why the situation has been stagnant for so long.
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Apr 18, 2016 04:59
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Kim Jong Il posted:Does the Palestinian Authority care about anything other than their maintaining their lavish villas in Cyprus? yes. palestine.
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Apr 18, 2016 07:38
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Kim Jong Il posted:Does the Palestinian Authority care about anything other than their maintaining their lavish villas in Cyprus?
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Apr 18, 2016 10:49
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Kim Jong Il posted:You have two options as far as Palestinian governance and they're both lovely in their own ways. If Israel were to throw up their hands and say, welp, no partner, guess it's full steam ahead with settlements you'd complain too. This is quite literally the stance of the Israeli government at the moment. Ron Dermer in 2010 - Israel has no partner to peace - http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/netanyahu-s-patience-with-abbas-has-run-out-says-wikileaks-cable-1.331680 Ya'alon in 2015 - Abbas is no partner - http://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-warns-hamas-not-to-escalate-terror-says-abbas-no-partner/ Netanyahu in 2015 - 'We are always willing to talk [...] we have no illusions about Abu Mazen.' http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/11/netanyahu-abbas-handshake-climate/418092/ This is nothing new. Avi Shlaim has covered extraordinarily well Israel's cyclical approach to negotiations. Start to negotiate. Undermine partner. Declare partner is no real partner. Refuse to negotiate while pretending to negotiate until partner disappears or the matter is forced by the potential partner or a third party. You can apply this to nearly any Israeli political negotiation with a neighbouring country in the last 65 years and see it in action. Abu Mazen will die or retire at some point and his successor will probably become more palatable for a while, more open to de facto concessions and continuing to control the populace in Israel's father. Until he (or she) gets uppity about a Palestinian state. Then negotiations will stall. And this partner will become no partner. Repeat until bantustans or ethnic cleansing.
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Apr 18, 2016 12:11
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Also, it's already full steam ahead with settlements.
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Apr 18, 2016 13:28
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I'm sure they could go faster if they threw on more dogs. The UN and ICC business is what really drove home Israeli insincerity to me. The long slow maneuvering of international diplomacy seems vastly preferable to the violence of guerilla terrorism...if your goal is to reach a resolution.
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Apr 18, 2016 13:32
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Volkerball posted:So now they are Israeli puppets? Ignoring the fact that this completely undermines your point about Israel being "allied" with any Palestinian body, you're way off base. Pretty sure Israel wasn't very happy about releasing prisoners as concessions to the PA during negotiations, or the PA applying to UN charters and the ICC very publicly to stick their thumb in Israel's eye. Israel is not politically aligned with anyone who wishes to unlock the ball and chain on Palestines ankle, because at the end of the day, they are not open to giving up concessions on basic human rights that would allow Palestine to thrive as a normal nation. That's why the situation has been stagnant for so long. Israel isn't politically aligned with the PA on freedom for Palestine, but they are politically aligned with the PA on keeping the peace and working together against militant groups and Fatah's rivals. It's almost as if there's a difference between "allies" and "best friends forever who agree on everything". Israel's stance on the PA is extremely clear: they will work to keep the PA in power and preserve day-to-day cooperation in the administration of the West Bank, but they will not propose any two-state solution the PA is willing to accept, and they will talk poo poo about the PA constantly while keeping the cooperation low-key for the sake of the right-wing politicians who run the government.
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Apr 18, 2016 14:02
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So a bus went boom. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-36075442 quote:At least 16 people have been injured by an explosion on a bus in Jerusalem, Israeli medics say.
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Apr 18, 2016 17:07
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According to ynet the police are saying this likely wasn't a terror attack.
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Apr 18, 2016 17:20
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Alright so new reports in, police are claiming it was a bomb attack after all. This could turn ugly.
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Apr 18, 2016 17:59
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Who bombs an empty bus though.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:04
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