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C & C, for a passing grade... or maybe choices & consequences or Command & Conquer or command & control
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Apr 16, 2016 00:17
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A On the hire because of a soft spot for the bushwacker. A Sideline the clanner just in case. Who knows how they feel about honor with Amaris right over there.
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Apr 16, 2016 02:36
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Are we even sure that Noretti is aware Amaris is there? Unless someone straight tells him I got the impression that Amaris had met with Duncan and Jason only and he would have no way to know unless he was told, or somehow recognized the dude across a giant underground mech bay despite having never seen him before.
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Apr 16, 2016 02:54
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He knows he'd be working for Amaris, and that's all that really matters. Even if he doesn't know he's hypothetically (if not realistically) got a shot at the big man himself, he still might think he could do a bunch of damage to one of their major repair facilities or even just the merc unit that drew enough attention to get some insane quality stuff from the NRWR and is thus a valuable thing to cripple or destroy.
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Apr 16, 2016 03:02
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Zaodai posted:He knows he'd be working for Amaris, and that's all that really matters. Even if he doesn't know he's hypothetically (if not realistically) got a shot at the big man himself, he still might think he could do a bunch of damage to one of their major repair facilities or even just the merc unit that drew enough attention to get some insane quality stuff from the NRWR and is thus a valuable thing to cripple or destroy. If Clanners could think like that, they would have conquered the Inner Sphere by now: it's much more likely that he'll willingly fight against clan opponents to make sure that the people who will kill Amaris are stronger than him, so the clans will become stronger too as a result of the victory. If no one manages to beat him and the mercs, than he'll die when the clans nuke the planet, his honor intact because no one else from the clans was able to win either without resorting to such extreme measures. If the clans are decisively beaten without killing Amaris here instead, then he'll either become disillusioned with the clans altogether, or he'll kill himself...or he'll bide his time with the hopes of starting his own mercenary clan invented entirely for the purpose of killing Amaris. Hard to say with Clanners, honestly. thetruegentleman fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 03:43
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thetruegentleman posted:If the clans are decisively beaten without killing Amaris here instead, then he'll either become disillusioned with the clans altogether, or he'll kill himself...or he'll bide his time with the hopes of starting his own mercenary clan invented entirely for the purpose of killing Amaris. Hard to say with Clanners, honestly. This is obviously the right one. But having made the move to surrender, he's shown his willingness to become a bondsman in service of his survival instinct, which immediately sets him apart from the average clanner. We haven't heard from him in any fluff as far as I remember, I don't remember the turn he surrendered, which is as good a reason as any to reread this awesome battle. If we ever get another Demon Hawks vote, I'm voting TFS. Or maybe we can convince Hell's Horses to take mercs? Or I'm voting we sign up with the Outworlds Protectorate. And somehow no one is holding or even caring about the idiot ball! vorebane fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 05:07
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thetruegentleman posted:If Clanners could think like that, they would have conquered the Inner Sphere by now: it's much more likely that he'll willingly fight against clan opponents to make sure that the people who will kill Amaris are stronger than him, so the clans will become stronger too as a result of the victory. If no one manages to beat him and the mercs, than he'll die when the clans nuke the planet, his honor intact because no one else from the clans was able to win either without resorting to such extreme measures. Your plan is based on the assumption that the Clans as written by PTN are completely homogenous in thought and action, which they aren't. Also, he's a Clanner who was willing to surrender against Space Hitler. I doubt he's got this grand fantastic plan to toughen up the clans to take down Amaris. I mean, some random mercs beat his rear end and took him prisoner. I'm not saying he's a spy or guaranteed to backstab GoonLance. What I'm saying is, there's a non-zero and significant chance that he'll backstab them in some way. Is one more pilot worth that risk? In my book, it's not. That is up to each voter to decide. Also, the Clans would never have conquered the Inner Sphere. They didn't have enough mechs or guys. The only reason they got as far as they did is because they hit a bunch of weak outer worlds and the IS wasn't going to immediately band together against them. A combined Inner Sphere would go Soviet Russia on their rear end.
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Apr 16, 2016 07:15
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I think if Zaodai isn't worried we should be fine. I mean, I agree with him most of the time on risk (and he's right at least half the time in some manner despite what people say...), but this should be ok. Worst case scenario, PTN tells the player he's free to betray if he wants (or he makes it an NPC...), in that case it's still just a Phoenix Hawk. Glory to the last player, and it's a jumpy wonderboat, but there's a limit to how much damage it can do unless it lucks out with cockpit/rear center torso hits with the cLPL or a surprise DFA. Actually I think the most depressing scenario would be if Noretti just jumps away with Jason's heirloom... but that'd be hilarious enough to be worth it. Honestly, I can't see any scenario where the drama isn't first grade (except for a regular, poor performance), even if it isn't worth it to the enjoyment of the game overall. RA Rx fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 11:11
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Zaodai posted:Also, the Clans would never have conquered the Inner Sphere. They didn't have enough mechs or guys. The only reason they got as far as they did is because they hit a bunch of weak outer worlds and the IS wasn't going to immediately band together against them. A combined Inner Sphere would go Soviet Russia on their rear end. Not to mention the fact that in canon their victory condition is Earth, which while an important world, isn't going to win them the entire Inner Sphere if they take it. To them it's the holiest place in the Universe, center of the Star League and cradle to Humanity. To the Successor States... it's a place that isn't nearly as important to them as, say, Luthian would be to the Draconis Combine, or Tharkad is to the Lyrans. In fact, the only reason why the Successor States might care if Earth gets taken is because Earth puts the Clanners in striking distance of all five states, and all that would do is provoke those States not already embroiled in the Clan War to go decimate the Clan's beachhead into their territory. The Clans do not War very well.
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Apr 16, 2016 12:57
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I'm not sure Clans versus IS is really relevant anymore. It's more like Second Clan Invasion + Goliath Scorpions & Amaris Hunting Force, plus Cappellan Confederation versus First Clan Invasion and the Inner Sphere (for now the NRWR and the Taurian Concordat can be counted as the Inner Sphere by necessity and choice respectively, at least for the moment...) Then again that's even worse for the clans, unless something provokes them to go all out with their warships somehow, which I think will happen with this new, smart guy in charge. Once he can talk the idiots into it using Clanner logic. But probably the end result is widespread devastation. The Inner Sphere and First Invasion Clanners have some warships of their own, and will find desperate ways to deal with the rest. In the end, whether the League survives or not, the % of extinct tribes versus extinct (and back to pre-industrial) IS planets and systems is going to be way higher. A total clusterfuck would actually be a near perfect scenario for Amaris, with the clan invasion failing but genociding most of the galaxy, as long as they don't seriously breach his Empire. (but who knows just how smart their new leader is) Can you imagine? Key aerospace missions interspersed among land-based missions (key personnel/leaders, communications assets, capturing aerospace/weapons production facilities, research centers...), where mechs (somehow) get onto the surface of warships (a la Nadir), and fight to the death to prevent the destruction of entire systems! RA Rx fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 13:35
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Just wanna remind folks that the mech we pick will have to be piloted by a goon. Having a soft spot for a terrible mech is understandable, but imagine being indifferent to the mech's history, but being stuck in it for your one shot for the next three years at piloting a mech in this game. The bushwacker sucks. I vote C for the battlemech. As for the clanner pilot: one drawback of handing him over to Amaris is if the clans find out we did that with someone who surrendered and was willing to be a bondsman. It would absolutely guarantee that no clanner pilot in the future will willingly surrender - or maybe even be taken alive - by the Demon Hawks. On that basis, I think we can't hand him over. We don't have to put him in a cockpit for this match, and it'd be a cool thing to get a fluff update from PTN that addresses the man's character in some way. So I'll vote A: let the guy stew, maybe Bethany can interview him or he can chat with Duncan or something, and next mission we can make a more informed decision.
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Apr 16, 2016 20:50
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If the Bushwacker were as lovely as you say for someone to pilot and PTN had no plans to make it fun to play, it wouldn't be an option. PTN may offer us trap choices in theater votes and missions, but he's not going to troll one player with an unplayable ride. It's not like he's putting them in an Assault packed with flamers. And hopefully the next time we take a prisoner we get the option to not make them a bondsman, but instead invite them to our fancy tea party so we can settle our disputes with words and sweet treats instead of giant stompy robots. I'm sure this whole war to the death thing is just a big misunderstanding. [EDIT] Somewhat more seriously: How well do the characters in story really know the Clan honor system? Do they have reason to believe that the bondsman won't turn on them? Would you take a captured prisoner and put him in a main battle tank and send him off to support the rest of your army in a modern war? Hell no. That's retarded.
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Apr 16, 2016 21:15
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Bethany knows it quite well, I imagine.
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Apr 16, 2016 21:22
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Duncan and Jason have both fought the Clans directly, and the Bounty Hunter is pretty well known for taking captives. Taking people alive when it'd be easier to kill them is pretty much why he gets hired. Very likely they picked up anything they know (or don't know) from the Bounty Hunter.
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Apr 16, 2016 22:00
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Man, it's gotta be a source of confusion when people want to hire a bounty hunter rather than the Bounty Hunter, or vice-versa. Like, I bet at least one inner sphere noble got angry with his seneschal after ordering him to summon the Bounty Hunter and he got the city's bail bondsman's moonlighter instead. The inner sphere bureaucrat/servant/administrator class would probably make for some pretty funny stories managing the logistical and interpersonal nightmare of Space Feudalism.
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Apr 16, 2016 22:52
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PoptartsNinja posted:“Thank you, Stefan,” Duncan’s irreverent smirk told Jason he’d mostly recovered from the initial shock. “I think what my tongue-tied companion is trying to say is: we’re not certain we’re happy to find you here on Andurien. The Clans—” So one reading of this is that Amaris is fighting here so he doesn't fight other places, and his personal presence makes a big ol clan chevauchee across the NRWR less likely. Makes sense if you have lots of time to prepare but limited manpower. And there's always the chance that he's secretly the space stunt double of Amaris who's actually Scott Steiner or Kevin Nash or whatever, and there's actually secret plans for a defense in depth. But the fact that the clans totally can nuke the planet and then crush the republic seems like a pretty big strategic risk. He's also focused on Warships, which is interesting. What's Amaris got in his other hand? His own, smaller fleet to cut lines of supply? Hundreds of hidden mobile orbital guns to blow up the Clan fleet in orbit? Some sort of convoluted way to make the planet core overheat and perform a planetary scale stackpole? Dropships filled to the brim with nukes and used like fireships? Maybe the NRWR's actually been producing 80% aerospace for 100 years and they can't be used so that they can wipe the majority of the Clan fleet out? I'm looking for something appropriately crazy from 80's Space Hitler's great-great-something-grandson.
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Apr 16, 2016 23:21
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Whatever Stefan Amaris has up his sleeves will be disappointing if it's not some grand enterprise with a big chance of turning into a massive boondoggle. So I'd put my money on that.
PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 23:26
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Bunch of boarding parties hidden in the debris who'll board and seize the Clan Warships when they turn up is my bet! Probably in some crazy thing thought up and built for exactly this situation.
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Apr 17, 2016 02:14
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Centurium posted:I'm looking for something appropriately crazy from 80's Space Hitler's great-great-something-grandson. It is a little odd that we're all rooting for Space Hitler's great great grandkid, isn't it?
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Apr 17, 2016 02:22
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PoptartsNinja posted:...some grand enterprise with a big chance of turning into a massive boondoggle. Super heavy quad LAM?
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Apr 17, 2016 02:23
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Pattonesque posted:It is a little odd that we're all rooting for Space Hitler's great great grandkid, isn't it? I'm rooting for Jason Youngblood, m'self. Space Hitler The Seventh will get his comeuppance at the hands of the Free Worlds and/or Star League soon enough, you wait and see!
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Apr 17, 2016 02:33
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Pattonesque posted:It is a little odd that we're all rooting for Space Hitler's great great grandkid, isn't it? Every time I read about Amaris I can't help but visualise TheMitanni from Eve. Right down to the goatee.
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Apr 17, 2016 02:39
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Z the IVth posted:Every time I read about Amaris I can't help but visualise TheMitanni from Eve. Right down to the goatee. And the sharp, guano reek of chickens coming home to roost? sebmojo fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 02:44
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I'm rooting for Jason Youngblood, m'self. Space Hitler The Seventh will get his comeuppance at the hands of the Free Worlds and/or Star League soon enough, you wait and see! Sins of the great great great great grandfather I guess.
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Apr 17, 2016 02:48
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paragon1 posted:Bunch of boarding parties hidden in the debris who'll board and seize the Clan Warships when they turn up is my bet! Probably in some crazy thing thought up and built for exactly this situation. There was that NRWR Warship boarding training mission earlier...
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Apr 17, 2016 03:15
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apostateCourier posted:There was that NRWR Warship boarding training mission earlier... I thought of that, too! It feels like a good time for the 331st to show up, and I really want to see what they're going to bring to the table here.
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Apr 17, 2016 03:25
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sebmojo posted:And the sharp, guano reek of chickens coming home to roost? Can I get a summary? All I got from scanning that page was that Goonswarm is losing a war and people are bitching about TheMittani. The second part is just business as usual AFAIK.
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Apr 17, 2016 03:28
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sebmojo posted:And the sharp, guano reek of chickens coming home to roost? I think that reference flew right by me. It's a Space Hitler with excellent PR. Why the chickens?
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Apr 17, 2016 03:28
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PoptartsNinja posted:Sins of the great great great great grandfather I guess. Sins of X Hitler grandfather be damned! This Amaris has been antagonizing the Free Worlds League for far too long, his come-upping by them is way past due.
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Apr 17, 2016 03:41
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Back Hack posted:Sins of X Hitler grandfather be damned! This Amaris has been antagonizing the Free Worlds League for far too long, his come-upping by them is way past due. I can't remember the details, but do the current Star League types realize it was Amaris loving with them? If I recall Duncan knows it was the Republic that fouled up his "challenge" with the Clans (although I don't recall if that actually ended badly for the FWL) but I don't remember why the Republic faked attacks along the Lyran/FWL border that one time or if they got found out. And while on the one hand it feels harsh to judge this Amaris by the sins of the ancestor, he is Stefan the eleventy-billionth or something. The family hasn't exactly rejected that legacy, and at least from what we've seen the megalomania angle is fun right up until you end up on the wrong side of it - or alternatively everything goes sideways and it's down into the Fuhrerbunker moving imaginary armies around a table.
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Apr 17, 2016 04:11
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Come on guys, if we found out in 200 years that Adolf Hitler VII was running a technologically advanced colony among the moons of Jupiter founded by his great great great great grandfather and he seemed like a cool guy with a heck of a command economy going, we'd probably be predisposed to not liking him.
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Apr 17, 2016 04:16
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Haven't we had precisely zero evidence that the original Stefan Amaris did anything wrong in this timeline?
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Apr 17, 2016 04:40
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Z the IVth posted:I think that reference flew right by me. It's a Space Hitler with excellent PR. Why the chickens? I'm no EVE Historian, but the short of the matter is that way back when, Goons where small and BoB was HUGE. People banded together and eventually kick BoB out of their space. And then continued to kick them repeatedly until they were effectively broken. Then Goonswarm and later GoonWaffe and the related alliances grew and grew and grew an they became fat and huge and well, in some similar to what BoB once was, though in many other ways different. And now a coalition of smaller groups has finally arisen after all this time to challenge the great Goon warmachine and unlike all previous comers, they're actually winning. Or at least seem to be. This war is after all far from decided.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:02
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Remmon posted:I'm no EVE Historian, but the short of the matter is that way back when, Goons where small and BoB was HUGE. People banded together and eventually kick BoB out of their space. And then continued to kick them repeatedly until they were effectively broken. I thought they forgot to pay the bills and returned to being some moderate power?
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Apr 17, 2016 05:12
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PoptartsNinja posted:Sins of the great great great great grandfather I guess. You mess with House Marik, you gotta pay. Well, someone's gotta pay. I mean, someone should pay, right? I think we can all agree that-- NO YOU SHUT UP 
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Apr 17, 2016 05:17
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dis astranagant posted:Haven't we had precisely zero evidence that the original Stefan Amaris did anything wrong in this timeline? Actually, I'm fairly sure it was mentioned that most things happened the same, with the exception that Kerensky didn't actually manage to win the battle for Terra. It might have been mentioned that the Great Houses didn't provide support as well, but I'm not entirely sure on that point one way or the other. A huge chunk of Amaris' atrocities were performed within weeks(and including, of course) him usurping rule, with most of the rest done during the decade-long war, rather than during the final battle. Given most things happening the same other than specifically mentioned, I think it's a fairly safe assumption to say that they still happened. Now, whether they were brought to light as much as they were canonically is a separate matter, though I'm fairly sure at least some are known.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:31
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dis astranagant posted:Haven't we had precisely zero evidence that the original Stefan Amaris did anything wrong in this timeline? Space Hitler did nothing wrong.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:46
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Zaodai posted:Space Hitler did nothing wrong. A whole lot of the initial "atrocities" were really just Star League SOP. They were just salty that Amaris pulled a fast one and nuked them first for once.
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Apr 17, 2016 05:52
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Well if there's a whole throne room full of dead Camerons somewhere then we can probably safely say Amaris was still Space Hitler. Maybe just less incompetent about it.
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Apr 17, 2016 07:16
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T.G. Xarbala posted:Well if there's a whole throne room full of dead Camerons somewhere then we can probably safely say Amaris was still Space Hitler. How is murdering your enemies in a palace coup at all different from daily Inner Sphere politics? Cameron's were no angels.
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Apr 17, 2016 07:47
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