US Income Tax Thread: Bank error in your favor! GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > US Income Tax Thread: Bank error in your favor! GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL.

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Admiral101: Feb 20, 2006; RMU: Where using the internet is like living in 1995.

Beerdeer posted:

In 2013 my wife had her student loans forgiven due to disability. That gave us a tax of ~25000 with the feds and ~10000 with Nebraska.

I just learned of the insolvency exception and filed a 1040x and 1040xn. Here's what I filed:

1040x
982
Insolvency Worksheet
1099 with the forgiven debt
2013 Return

and with Nebraska I filed

1040xn
1040x
982
Insolvency Worksheet
1099 with the forgiven debt
2013 tax manuscript

I figure if they want anything else they'll ask, but if you notice anything glaring let me know. My real question is with the insolvency itself. I definitely qualify given my own student loan burden DEPENDING ON how they value my FERS pension. By my contributions I have an interest in the pension of about 30,000. If they want the Present Value, however, it's worth like 600,000. Which are they likely to use?

What do you mean by "present value"? Your pension would be valued at FMV for purposes of the insolvency calculation. It has nothing to do with basis.

How are you coming to the conclusion that you were insolvent?

Insolvency measurements are pretty complicated so I really hope you didn't just go and do that yourself.

Admiral101 fucked around with this message at 20:24 on Apr 10, 2016

# ? Apr 10, 2016 20:19

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# ? May 11, 2024 10:50

Beerdeer: Apr 25, 2006; Frank Herbert's Dude

Admiral101 posted:

What do you mean by "present value"? Your pension would be valued at FMV for purposes of the insolvency calculation. It has nothing to do with basis.

How are you coming to the conclusion that you were insolvent?

Insolvency measurements are pretty complicated so I really hope you didn't just go and do that yourself.

I have $300,000 in liabilities the day before the event (the forgiveness of my wife's debt). My assets are $150,000. I have no real property, crappy cars, and very little in the way of investment. I have a TSP valued at ~38,000 and like I say, my pension is ~30,000, including my contributions and those of my employer. I am insolvent by any definition.

Unless they use the full present value of my pension, which is hard to figure unless you're an actuary, but figuring at ~$2700/mo for 19 years is, as I said, over $600,000. This is the type of calculation they use for valuing the pension in divorce.

The CPA I talked to for about 15 minutes said not to worry about the present value, but it just sits in the back of my mind. I really need this to work to get my money back.

# ? Apr 10, 2016 20:34

Admiral101: Feb 20, 2006; RMU: Where using the internet is like living in 1995.

Beerdeer posted:

I have $300,000 in liabilities the day before the event (the forgiveness of my wife's debt). My assets are $150,000. I have no real property, crappy cars, and very little in the way of investment. I have a TSP valued at ~38,000 and like I say, my pension is ~30,000, including my contributions and those of my employer. I am insolvent by any definition.

Unless they use the full present value of my pension, which is hard to figure unless you're an actuary, but figuring at ~$2700/mo for 19 years is, as I said, over $600,000. This is the type of calculation they use for valuing the pension in divorce.

The CPA I talked to for about 15 minutes said not to worry about the present value, but it just sits in the back of my mind. I really need this to work to get my money back.

Is that CPA signing that return?

Pension plans like that kill insolvency exceptions 99% of the time.

I hope there's some mitigating facts here and there was more due diligence than a 15 minute conversation with a CPA who may or may not know anything about how taxes work.

But it's your tax return. Good luck with it.

quote:

In the case where an individual has not commenced the receipt
of retirement benefits under the plan, and, accordingly, has not
elected a form of benefit payment, we suggest that the value of
the benefit should be the greater of (1) the actuarial present
value of the accrued benefit payable at the plan's normal
retirement age or (2) the amount of any single-sum distribution
that the participant could receive under the plan on the date as
of the relevant date. The suggested approach would ignore
optional forms of benefits that could be chosen, except that it
would take into account any option that provides for an immediate
cash payment.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-sca/1998-039.pdf

# ? Apr 10, 2016 20:43

Beerdeer: Apr 25, 2006; Frank Herbert's Dude

Admiral101 posted:

Is that CPA signing that return?

Pension plans like that kill insolvency exceptions 99% of the time.

I hope there's some mitigating facts here and there was more due diligence than a 15 minute conversation with a CPA who may or may not know anything about how taxes work.

But it's your tax return. Good luck with it.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-sca/1998-039.pdf

I appreciate the help, and I acknowledge it does not qualify as professional advice

Does Shepherd v Commissioner play into that at all? The memo is dated 1998, and the 2012 Shepherd case states that pension will be valued as what can be taken as a loan. In my case, that's about $25,000.

# ? Apr 10, 2016 21:05

Admiral101: Feb 20, 2006; RMU: Where using the internet is like living in 1995.

Beerdeer posted:

I appreciate the help, and I acknowledge it does not qualify as professional advice

Does Shepherd v Commissioner play into that at all? The memo is dated 1998, and the 2012 Shepherd case states that pension will be valued as what can be taken as a loan. In my case, that's about $25,000.

You're misinterpreting that court case entirely. The conclusion of that court case states:

quote:

"Section 108(d)(3) requires that a taxpayer establish the fair market value for
all of his assets and liabilities in order to make a determination of insolvency. If we
were to accept petitioners� valuation of their houses and exclude from liabilities the
loan from PERS, petitioners would be approximately $32,000 insolvent. However,
petitioners have not met their burden of proving the fair market values of the beach
house, the principal residence, and Mr. Shepherd�s pension. Since petitioners have
not established they were insolvent as defined in section 108(d)(3), petitioners are
not entitled to exclude their discharge of indebtedness income from gross income
under section 108(a)(1)(B)."

The taxpayers in that case were trying to initially include the pension loan in liabilities without including any of the collateral (the pension itself) as an asset. Tax taxpayers didn't have any kind of FMV on the pension in their calculation. The court was just saying that the fact that the taxpayer could've gotten another 25k on a pension loan means that the pension must've been worth at LEAST that amount. The court even had a footnote on pg 14 that said: "it is unnecessary for us to decide whether Mr. Shepherd�s entire pension constitutes an asset under sec. 108(d)(3)". The court just threw their hands up and said "you guys can't support a FMV for any of this poo poo - so gently caress it, no exemption for you"

Insolvency exception calculations trip up even experienced professionals. This is not something within your realm of ability to be handling.

Admiral101 fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Apr 10, 2016

# ? Apr 10, 2016 21:30

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

I'm trying to enter my w2. Box 18 (local wages, tips, etc) is blank, but box 19 (local income tax) is filled in. Presumably this is NYC's tax, but the site won't let me go forward with local income tax being greater than local wage. Should I be putting in my state wages (from box 16) in there?

edit: Nevermind, I think I figured it out, but have discovered a new problem.

I have some dividend/capital gain income from 1099-DIV. I moved states part way through the year and it's asking me to break up the income. Do I just go by time in state?

Xandu fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Apr 10, 2016

# ? Apr 10, 2016 21:49

AbbiTheDog: May 21, 2007

Admiral101 posted:

But it's your tax return. Good luck with it.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-sca/1998-039.pdf

There's no snark like overworked tax preparation in April snark! :circlefap:

I feel your pain.

# ? Apr 11, 2016 00:51

Sepist: Dec 26, 2005; FUCK BITCHES, ROUTE PACKETS; Gravy Boat 2k

Hoping this is a simple question. I get paid W2 for one job (full benefits), and corp to corp for another (they write checks to my LLC which I want to treat as pass-through). My W2 job puts me in the 28% tax bracket, but combined puts me in 33% or 35%. For tax purposes, would it be better to keep it as pass-through or treat it as a separate entity?

# ? Apr 11, 2016 18:32

SiGmA_X: May 3, 2004; SiGmA_X

Sepist posted:

Hoping this is a simple question. I get paid W2 for one job (full benefits), and corp to corp for another (they write checks to my LLC which I want to treat as pass-through). My W2 job puts me in the 28% tax bracket, but combined puts me in 33% or 35%. For tax purposes, would it be better to keep it as pass-through or treat it as a separate entity?

It's pass through regardless of what you want to do.

# ? Apr 11, 2016 18:53

Sepist: Dec 26, 2005; FUCK BITCHES, ROUTE PACKETS; Gravy Boat 2k

Ah, I thought if I registered for an EIN from the government it would no longer be pass-through.

Edit: After looking into it more, I'm just going to get a CPA involved in this now to avoid any headaches

Sepist fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Apr 11, 2016

# ? Apr 11, 2016 19:02

vulturesrow: Sep 25, 2011; _{Always gotta pay it forward.}

Admiral101 posted:

General rules: 25% tax rate on the depreciation recapture, the rest of the gain taxed at 20%.

That said, it depends pretty heavily on your individual tax situation (which bracket you're in etc). More details would be very helpful here.

Original purchase price: 325000
Improvements to home: 5000
Claimed depreciation: 54600
Selling price: 320000
Closing costs and fees: 14000
State taxes: 6000

# ? Apr 11, 2016 21:22

SiGmA_X: May 3, 2004; SiGmA_X

Sepist posted:

Ah, I thought if I registered for an EIN from the government it would no longer be pass-through.

Edit: After looking into it more, I'm just going to get a CPA involved in this now to avoid any headaches

Nope, even an individual (non-LLC, sole proprietorship type of thing) can get an EIN. I would suggest doing that, I don't like the idea of handing my SSN out to people I do work for.

Not a bad idea to find a CPA, anyway. They're great resources for your tax and business structure queries.

# ? Apr 11, 2016 21:47

PatMarshall: Apr 6, 2009

SiGmA_X posted:

Nope, even an individual (non-LLC, sole proprietorship type of thing) can get an EIN. I would suggest doing that, I don't like the idea of handing my SSN out to people I do work for.

Not a bad idea to find a CPA, anyway. They're great resources for your tax and business structure queries.

That said, you can elect to treat the LLC as a corporation by filing a check the box election. Whether that makes sense for you is a separate question and a CPA would be a good person to ask.

# ? Apr 11, 2016 22:43

SiGmA_X: May 3, 2004; SiGmA_X

PatMarshall posted:

That said, you can elect to treat the LLC as a corporation by filing a check the box election. Whether that makes sense for you is a separate question and a CPA would be a good person to ask.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they both are pass through entities. But a check the box election can enable payroll to the member-owner? You can elect for 60mo after LLC filing if I remember right. It's been 3yrs since I studied this area and I've never practiced, don't take this as tax advice

# ? Apr 11, 2016 23:42

Admiral101: Feb 20, 2006; RMU: Where using the internet is like living in 1995.

vulturesrow posted:

Original purchase price: 325000
Improvements to home: 5000
Claimed depreciation: 54600
Selling price: 320000
Closing costs and fees: 14000
State taxes: 6000

So your tax gain on the property is roughly 25k (state taxes = transfer taxes right?).

All of that's going to be subject to 1250 recapture. So that 25k gain is going to be taxed at roughly 25%, for a rough 6-7k of tax. This is a very broad estimate because I don't know your other income sources etc. Assuming you're not in NII (which you're not unless you're making 300k+) 6-7k in tax is about the most that you'll pay on that gain.

# ? Apr 12, 2016 00:59

pig slut lisa: Mar 5, 2012; irl is good

AbbiTheDog posted:

Ooohhh.....poo poo. You also need to consider code section 267, disallowed related party losses.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/267

Ahh, thanks for this. To confirm I'm reading this correctly:

My aunt is buying out me, my sister, my brother, and my dad. My dad would be excluded from claiming a capital loss under the 267(c)(4) definition of family, since he is being bought out by his sister, but my siblings and I can claim a capital loss because our aunt is not included in that definition. Right?

e: Also we've been notified by the attorney that our capital accounts are equivalent to our respective bases, so we will all be selling at a loss.

pig slut lisa fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Apr 12, 2016

# ? Apr 12, 2016 03:51

PatMarshall: Apr 6, 2009

SiGmA_X posted:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they both are pass through entities. But a check the box election can enable payroll to the member-owner? You can elect for 60mo after LLC filing if I remember right. It's been 3yrs since I studied this area and I've never practiced, don't take this as tax advice

A corporation is opaque by default, it is only a passthrough if it also elects to be an S-corporation.

An eligible entity may make a check the box election on form 8832 to change its current classification unless it has filed an election to change its classification within the past 60 months. The 60 month limitation does not apply if the prior election was an initial election by a newly formed entity effective as of formation.

# ? Apr 12, 2016 17:42

AbbiTheDog: May 21, 2007

pig slut lisa posted:

Ahh, thanks for this. To confirm I'm reading this correctly:

My aunt is buying out me, my sister, my brother, and my dad. My dad would be excluded from claiming a capital loss under the 267(c)(4) definition of family, since he is being bought out by his sister, but my siblings and I can claim a capital loss because our aunt is not included in that definition. Right?

e: Also we've been notified by the attorney that our capital accounts are equivalent to our respective bases, so we will all be selling at a loss.

Extend and hire a professional in three weeks.

# ? Apr 12, 2016 19:14

pig slut lisa: Mar 5, 2012; irl is good

AbbiTheDog posted:

Extend and hire a professional in three weeks.

Sorry for the confusion. The sale hasn't occurred yet, so I wouldn't need to file for an extension for this year's tax cycle.

# ? Apr 12, 2016 20:00

AbbiTheDog: May 21, 2007

pig slut lisa posted:

Sorry for the confusion. The sale hasn't occurred yet, so I wouldn't need to file for an extension for this year's tax cycle.

Great. Wait three weeks for all the CPAs to recover and then start calling.

# ? Apr 13, 2016 00:20

MadDogMike: Apr 9, 2008; Cute but fanged

Xandu posted:

I'm trying to enter my w2. Box 18 (local wages, tips, etc) is blank, but box 19 (local income tax) is filled in. Presumably this is NYC's tax, but the site won't let me go forward with local income tax being greater than local wage. Should I be putting in my state wages (from box 16) in there?

edit: Nevermind, I think I figured it out, but have discovered a new problem.

I have some dividend/capital gain income from 1099-DIV. I moved states part way through the year and it's asking me to break up the income. Do I just go by time in state?

Yeah, pro-rate by time in each state (i.e state you lived in 45% of the year gets 45% of the dividend/capital gains). That sort of thing is generally sourced by residency. Get the percentage by comparing days though, not months, in order to get a more accurate ratio.

AbbiTheDog posted:

There's no snark like overworked tax preparation in April snark! I feel your pain.

Oh god, don't get ME started :gonk:

. I seem to have gravitated to being the local tech guru by being the nerdiest (hell of a trick to pull in a tax office), so between that and helping the newer folks I'm literally getting interrupted in the middle of interruptions. Gotta sneak in early tomorrow to get some of my headaches cleared, my manager suggested I hide in the back to actually get time to work.

AbbiTheDog posted:

Great. Wait three weeks for all the CPAs to recover and then start calling.

People can recover in three weeks? I used to be better at handling these kinds of hours in grad school...

# ? Apr 13, 2016 07:02

AbbiTheDog: May 21, 2007

MadDogMike posted:

People can recover in three weeks? I used to be better at handling these kinds of hours in grad school...

No rest for the wicked over here. I'm having to drop in to do financial statements for some of my clients next week. No vacation this year.

# ? Apr 13, 2016 18:37

Number_6: Jul 23, 2006; BAN ALL GAS GUZZLERS

(except for mine); Pillbug

After "finishing" my taxes, I discovered that even though I had no intentional stock trades this year, because of a stock split or some poo poo I was credited with a $6 (six) dollar capital gain on some fractional share of stock or some bullshit I don't even. It's shown as a long term gain from sale of stock on the 1099, not as a cap gain distribution or a dividend. I don't especially feel like filling out Schedule D and that other godawful form they use for trades now, over a six dollar gain. But looking over IRS instructions, there doesn't seem to be any clearly stated "de minimis" amount of capital gain under which Schedule D is not required. Is the IRS going to jump up my rear end if I pretend I never noticed this item?

Edit: if it matters the total sale amount was roughly $10, and the basis was roughly $4, yielding the $6.XX gain.

Number_6 fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Apr 14, 2016

# ? Apr 14, 2016 06:08

waffle: May 12, 2001; HEH

I contributed $5500 to my Roth IRA for 2015, but realized I shouldn't have because I'm working abroad, so my taxable compensation for 2015 is $0. So, that $5500 is an excess contribution I need to take out before filing. If I'm understanding correctly, if I just take the money out of the IRA before filing my taxes (living abroad I have till June) I should get a 1099-R that has info on the withdrawal, and shouldn't have to worry other than reporting this 1099-R?

I was just a little concerned because when trying to take the money out Vanguard says "Because our records show you're under age 59�, we have to report this to the IRS as an early distribution. Early distributions may be subject to a 10% federal penalty tax unless you qualify for an exception." but that sounds like that might just be referring to the 1099-R.

# ? Apr 14, 2016 21:40

asur: Dec 28, 2012

waffle posted:

I contributed $5500 to my Roth IRA for 2015, but realized I shouldn't have because I'm working abroad, so my taxable compensation for 2015 is $0. So, that $5500 is an excess contribution I need to take out before filing. If I'm understanding correctly, if I just take the money out of the IRA before filing my taxes (living abroad I have till June) I should get a 1099-R that has info on the withdrawal, and shouldn't have to worry other than reporting this 1099-R?

I was just a little concerned because when trying to take the money out Vanguard says "Because our records show you're under age 59�, we have to report this to the IRS as an early distribution. Early distributions may be subject to a 10% federal penalty tax unless you qualify for an exception." but that sounds like that might just be referring to the 1099-R.

You're working abroad and taking the foreign income exclusion? I believe if you take the foreign tax credit then the income would count. If you do need to withdraw, you need to fill out and IRS Form 8606 and any earnings that need to be withdrawn will count as an early distribution and may incur a penalty as well as counting as income.

# ? Apr 15, 2016 02:00

waffle: May 12, 2001; HEH

asur posted:

You're working abroad and taking the foreign income exclusion? I believe if you take the foreign tax credit then the income would count. If you do need to withdraw, you need to fill out and IRS Form 8606 and any earnings that need to be withdrawn will count as an early distribution and may incur a penalty as well as counting as income.

Awesome, thanks! Yeah, I'm taking the foreign income exclusion.

# ? Apr 15, 2016 08:03

dpkg chopra: Jun 9, 2007; Fast Food Fight; Grimey Drawer

I paid $980 in Federal Taxes last year, and for various reasons I expect that I will owe slightly less by the end of this year.

If I'm reading this right, then I'm not expected to pay quarterly taxes this year, right?

# ? Apr 15, 2016 19:17

MadDogMike: Apr 9, 2008; Cute but fanged

Ur Getting Fatter posted:

I paid $980 in Federal Taxes last year, and for various reasons I expect that I will owe slightly less by the end of this year.

If I'm reading this right, then I'm not expected to pay quarterly taxes this year, right?

If you owe less than $1000, then yes, there's no underwithholding penalty to worry about. Obviously you have to be able to pay everything by April 15 and if you have any sudden windfalls I'd make sure to make a tax payment, but otherwise should be OK.

# ? Apr 16, 2016 19:09

AbbiTheDog: May 21, 2007

waffle posted:

Awesome, thanks!

You now, people don't get how much free advice they're getting on here and how much they'd need to pay to ask someone these questions. Thanks for the thanks is what I'm trying to say.

# ? Apr 16, 2016 21:35

El Jebus: Jun 18, 2008; This avatar is paid for by "Avatars for improving Lowtax's spine by any means that doesn't result in him becoming brain dead by putting his brain into a cyborg body and/or putting him in a exosuit due to fears of the suit being hacked and crushing him during a cyberpunk future timeline" Foundation

AbbiTheDog posted:

You now, people don't get how much free advice they're getting on here and how much they'd need to pay to ask someone these questions. Thanks for the thanks is what I'm trying to say.

I came into this thread and asked something about a W2 and came to the conclusion that paying someone like you to do it was the biggest thanks I could give. It was amazing and I'm never going back to doing it myself now that I have a mortgage, retirement accounts, non-profit stuff, wife's teaching W2...

Thanks smart money goons!

# ? Apr 16, 2016 22:20

Zero VGS: Aug 16, 2002; ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE; Lipstick Apathy

The deadline snuck up on me this year... I was going to file an extension and I noticed that I'll still pay a penalty if I owe money.

I usually owe $500-1000 each year. Since I have no idea exactly how much, can I just send them a couple grand now, then do my taxes later and have them send me back what I overpaid without getting a penalty?

# ? Apr 17, 2016 16:25

slap me silly: Nov 1, 2009; Grimey Drawer

If you owe $1000 and you pay two months late, the penalty and interest is gonna be like 25 bucks.

# ? Apr 17, 2016 16:31

urnisme: Dec 24, 2011

Zero VGS posted:

The deadline snuck up on me this year... I was going to file an extension and I noticed that I'll still pay a penalty if I owe money.

I usually owe $500-1000 each year. Since I have no idea exactly how much, can I just send them a couple grand now, then do my taxes later and have them send me back what I overpaid without getting a penalty?

Yes. Estimate what you'll owe and send that amount with your 4868. Then list it as "amount paid with request for extension to file" when you file your actual return.

# ? Apr 17, 2016 16:32

Zero VGS: Aug 16, 2002; ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE; Lipstick Apathy

urnisme posted:

Yes. Estimate what you'll owe and send that amount with your 4868. Then list it as "amount paid with request for extension to file" when you file your actual return.

Sweet, thanks!

Actually, I did have another question that even my professional tax prepper never gave me a straight answer for.

I like to owe taxes at the end of the year; but I hear if I withhold "too much" that I'll have to pay a penalty for that too.

How the heck do I figure out how to withhold as much as possible without triggering said penalty? Is there an online calculator where I can put in my gross income and it tells me the number of Federal/State exemptions put down?

# ? Apr 17, 2016 17:02

BonerGhost: Mar 9, 2007

You don't owe taxes because you withheld too much, you would owe because you withheld too little. How little to withhold without facing a penalty is really straightforward if you follow the w4 worksheet.

# ? Apr 17, 2016 17:54

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

Zero VGS posted:

Sweet, thanks!

Actually, I did have another question that even my professional tax prepper never gave me a straight answer for.

I like to owe taxes at the end of the year; but I hear if I withhold "too much" that I'll have to pay a penalty for that too.

How the heck do I figure out how to withhold as much as possible without triggering said penalty? Is there an online calculator where I can put in my gross income and it tells me the number of Federal/State exemptions put down?

He's full of poo poo, you don't have a penalty for "withholding too much" except for not having that money available during the year. You should pay what you expect to owe with your extension request and then if you over shoot, you'll get the money back.

# ? Apr 17, 2016 20:34

Elysium: Aug 21, 2003; It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

Nevermind I think I figured it out.

Elysium fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Apr 18, 2016

# ? Apr 18, 2016 06:01

Zero VGS: Aug 16, 2002; ASK ME ABOUT HOW HUMAN LIVES THAT MADE VIDEO GAME CONTROLLERS ARE WORTH MORE; Lipstick Apathy

sullat posted:

He's full of poo poo, you don't have a penalty for "withholding too much" except for not having that money available during the year. You should pay what you expect to owe with your extension request and then if you over shoot, you'll get the money back.

I said it backwards, I meant for not withholding enough. I think there is an actual penalty if I put a lot of exemptions and wind up owing a huge amount at the end of the year.

If there wasn't I'd just be like gently caress it give me all the monies and I'll figure it out.

# ? Apr 18, 2016 14:36

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

Oh, yeah, failure to make ES payments penalty. Basically if you owe $1000 or more two years running. It's not a huge amount, but it will be done.

# ? Apr 18, 2016 15:00

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# ? May 11, 2024 10:50

potatoducks: Jan 26, 2006

***

potatoducks fucked around with this message at 08:40 on Jan 16, 2017

# ? Apr 20, 2016 06:21

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > US Income Tax Thread: Bank error in your favor! GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL.

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