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That thing comic books have been doing for eons and don't need to kill off every cast member and have a gay priest killed by a weather ghost man to do. Even if admittedly they still do even dumber things that.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:02
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Sticking to convention is boring. How many comic artists have unceremoniously killed their Goku, the lead man, and just not made a big deal of it? In a medium plagued with "he got better though", something JoJo doesn't avoid, not doing that and having the protagonists have a Pyrrhic victory at most is good.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:09
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I mean, no he didn't have to, but if he was gonna, I'm glad he did it by killing off everyone and having a ten year old kill a gay priest in a void room by overdosing him with oxygen and then making a story about cowboys
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Apr 17, 2016 16:12
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Josuke Higashikata posted:Sticking to convention is boring. How many comic artists have unceremoniously killed their Goku, the lead man, and just not made a big deal of it? Stop acting like this is a classy way to break conventions like Jonathan's death was. He got to die with dignity and a conclusion to his entire story that sent him out like a champ, something only Jolyne got in Stone Ocean and everyone else gets hosed. There is a happy medium here somewhere where your characters the entire story has been about die with some dignity and it is not what he went with. Killing every character and acting like it is not just trading one extreme for the other is a weird rationalization and using that excuse to act like Araki actually planned to use that separate timeline split for any actual reason is silly, especially with how you know this man writes stories.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:16
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Jolyne Cujoh posted:The whole "Dio knew how to create an unstoppable stand but didn't do it himself because ???" thing is pretty dumb, yeah. Over Heaven has Dio only fully figuring it out a few minutes before fighting Jotaro.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:40
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Baal posted:Stop acting like this is a classy way to break conventions like Jonathan's death was. He got to die with dignity and a conclusion to his entire story that sent him out like a champ, something only Jolyne got in Stone Ocean and everyone else gets hosed. There is a happy medium here somewhere where your characters the entire story has been about die with some dignity and it is not what he went with. Killing every character and acting like it is not just trading one extreme for the other is a weird rationalization and using that excuse to act like Araki actually planned to use that separate timeline split for any actual reason is silly, especially with how you know this man writes stories. It's barely any different to Jonathan's death at all though. Jonathan's death comes out of the blue with no real buildup at the hands of a dude he'd straight killed shortly beforehand. It's quick and unceremonious and he ultimately sacrifices his life for the one he loves most. Is it more dignified because he got a Jonathan Joestar - Died 1889? What makes this utterly dignified while the other is devoid of dignity? On the other hand, Jotaro's death comes at the end of the whole "we need to kill Pucci before he achieves his Stand's final evolution" and they failed to do it. Then it became a desperate struggle to survive against someone who had them in checkmate. Even at the end, Jotaro is faced with a similar decision that Jonathan was, and Pucci quite literally drives this home the second before he kills Jotaro, in that he could have either killed Pucci in frozen time and save the universe or saved Jolyne from the knives that were thrown but he couldn't do both. So he chose Jolyne and died. There's no time to linger on him bleeding out or saying "I loved you etc" because she's in the middle of hell. And speaking of breaking convention, it also breaks the convention that all heroes go out with a bang and that death is some huge monumental thing. Anyone can die, death is inevitable, it's just a thing. It's not a dignified thing by its very nature so when you're pointedly writing a story where your heroes are butchered like sheep, it's an angle to view it from. Hot Pants is the death this concern applies to most of all. "using that excuse to act like Araki actually planned to use that separate timeline split for any actual reason is silly, especially with how you know this man writes stories." There's no evidence either way as to whether or not Araki deciding to kill the original universe factored into his decision to make Steel Ball Run. The freedom of it not being possible to go back to the original universe gave him a free reign to write whatever he wanted and then fit it into the JoJo canon as he sees fit though, something he ultimately did. It's quite easily the less silly way of looking at those things. Josuke Higashikata fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 16:45
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I mean, I do see what Araki was trying to do with mirroring Jolyne's death to Jonathan's and how saving at least one person is enough to help turn the tide but yeah, the way it was implemented and it being super rushed is kind of  .I'm with Moltrey about liking the surrealism of the leadup to all of that, though, that was super interesting and cool to watch.
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Apr 17, 2016 16:48
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Josuke Higashikata posted:It's barely any different to Jonathan's death at all though. Jonathan's death comes out of the blue with no real buildup at the hands of a dude he'd straight killed shortly beforehand. It's quick and unceremonious and he ultimately sacrifices his life for the one he loves most. Is it more dignified because he got a Jonathan Joestar - Died 1889? What makes this utterly dignified while the other is devoid of dignity? Because Jonathan didn't just fall down and die in vain trying to defeat the villain. Why is that a question? You know why it is, he protected the woman he loved and stopped Dio from moving any further towards his goals even if he had to die too and he still died making his peace with the brother he spent his life with. Josuke Higashikata posted:And speaking of breaking convention, it also breaks the convention that all heroes go out with a bang and that death is some huge monumental thing. Anyone can die, death is inevitable, it's just a thing. It's not a dignified thing by its very nature so when you're pointedly writing a story where your heroes are butchered like sheep, it's an angle to view it from. Except so many other stories did this and it's not breaking a convention. "Death is sudden" is as old and played out as "No one dies and story is resolved" even for when Stone Ocean finished. It might be breaking conventions according to shonen, but that is one of the most formulaic genres to ever exist and JoJo already breaks a lot of those conventions even if it still follows the central beats that most do. quote:The freedom of it not being possible to go back to the original universe gave him a free reign to write whatever he wanted and then fit it into the JoJo canon as he sees fit though, something he ultimately did. It's quite easily the less silly way of looking at those things. Then he wrote a story where Dio was a dimension hopping purple people eater and reset the timeline so all of the bad things that happened to people didn't happen.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:00
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hey baal jolyne takes issue with your dislike of part 6
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Apr 17, 2016 17:07
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That fight was badly drawn and nowhere near as good as the Planet Waves one before it
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Apr 17, 2016 17:09
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Johnny Joestar posted:between that, the mention of beef tongue in the first episode, and the flash of black fire in jonathan's eyes in the phantom blood OP i'm really confident that they know the material front to back. The beef tongue mention was in part 4. Edit: beaten.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:11
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Baal posted:Because Jonathan didn't just fall down and die in vain trying to defeat the villain. Why is that a question? You know why it is, he protected the woman he loved and stopped Dio from moving any further towards his goals even if he had to die too and he still died making his peace with the brother he spent his life with. Once again: Jotaro and Jonathan's deaths aren't much different thematically and neither stands up as more or less unceremonious than the other. Baal posted:Except so many other stories did this and it's not breaking a convention. "Death is sudden" is as old and played out as "No one dies and story is resolved" even for when Stone Ocean finished. It might be breaking conventions according to shonen, but that is one of the most formulaic genres to ever exist and JoJo already breaks a lot of those conventions even if it still follows the central beats that most do. Baal posted:Then he wrote a story where Dio was a dimension hopping purple people eater and reset the timeline so all of the bad things that happened to people didn't happen. Baal-kun-chan, please.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:11
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BaDandy posted:I mean, I do see what Araki was trying to do with mirroring Jolyne's death to Jonathan's and how saving at least one person is enough to help turn the tide but yeah, the way it was implemented and it being super rushed is kind of Also I agree with this, the leadup to it was genuinely pretty atmospheric and interesting. Cape Canaveral in general was pretty stellar.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:12
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My main issue with part 6 is that Pucci is probably the blandest villain in all of the Jojos (although I like how he actually had an end-game that wasn't "I wanna be super powerful and gently caress poo poo up"), and also that the final kill goes to Emporio and is kinda anti-climactic, especially considering the scale of Pucci's powers. These are two things that part 7 "fixes", which is why even though I like everything else about part 6, I couldn't really rate it above part 7.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:18
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Josuke Higashikata posted:Jonathan did just that though. He ultimately did equally little to stop Dio as Jotaro did to Pucci in the end. Dio's stated goal on the ship was "kill you and take your body". Dio killed him and took his body, and ultimately returned to the mainland fully capable. I am talking in the context of the story as it was written. I am not counting 5 other parts that come after Phantom Blood, because Phantom Blood was not written with their existence in mind nor was it even written with Part 3 in mind because Araki does not plan stories. If you want to say that then literally everything ever that happens in Parts 4 and 5 don't matter because everyone ends up dying anyways. quote:So you're saying it doesn't break convention but that it does amongst its peers. If you're bringing it in against "so many stories" than basically every other story that has ever happened is by the numbers other than their originators. That's true, but I do not experience things in a vacuum and neither do you. I also genuinely don't like these endings because they feel like lovely ways to draw shock from a reader and in general feel disrespectful towards the characters you put work into. Not every ending has to be formulaic as hell, but these endings are ones you have to toe a certain line on because they are more often than not slaps in the face to your audience. quote:Supervised it, which means as delightfully little or much as you want it to until CC2 say "he just gave the okay" or "he wrote the whole thing". Either way, it's a bad video game with no bearing on anything. I can also bring up him constantly going back to Rohan for side material and the light novels that aren't Jorge Joestar that he lets others have control of, etc. etc. He has no restriction on going back to that because he can just as easily place it at a different point before the reset and he knows it.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:19
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Rohan Kishibe is an universal constant.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:21
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I tell you what though letting Pucci win would've broken some conventions even as far as non-shonen fiction goes, then I'd be here as you write about how brilliant he is for that instead.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:22
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Anyone really bored and want to take a guess at how the episodes will be divided up? I would do it myself but i kind of don't want to reread it while the anime is ongoing so i'm surprised by some of the stuff i forgot about.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:40
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What is the worst fight in jojo I mean worst as in "this is just a really bad, not entertaining fight, at all" I'm having trouble thinking of any fights that didn't have at least 1 interesting thing going on. I would guess maybe the fight against doobie maybe since it was so quick and such a non-thing, I mean I didn't hate it, it just kinda felt like "yeah ok I guess that happened"
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Apr 17, 2016 17:48
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CJ posted:Anyone really bored and want to take a guess at how the episodes will be divided up? I would do it myself but i kind of don't want to reread it while the anime is ongoing so i'm surprised by some of the stuff i forgot about. quote:Jotaro Kujo Meets Josuke Higashikata 39 FirstAidKite posted:What is the worst fight in jojo If I were to go for outright fights it'd honestly be like... Notorious B.I.G. or ACDC. If you're counting scrub mop ups like Doobie then there's Part 2 where Lisa Lisa just throws her scarf on a dude and he dies and that's just kinda whatever.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:49
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Dragon's Dream is the one that always comes to mind for worst fight for me.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:52
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Oh yeah Dragon's Dream, duh
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Apr 17, 2016 17:52
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Does the flying nazi in Battle Tendency count? It was pretty much a non-event and doesn't really add anything as far as I remember.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:57
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 Someone from david did this
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Apr 17, 2016 17:57
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I don't actually remember anything about the dragon's dream fight. Like, I remember that the stand user drank his own piss and that his stand was always like "I AM NEUTRAL PLEASE DO NOT ATTACK ME" and I don't remember much else except spring legs or something
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Apr 17, 2016 17:57
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I don't even remember all of what happens in Dragon's Dream, so there you go then.
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Apr 17, 2016 17:59
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Dragon's Dream was a cool idea, but it's got a lot of really bad art, exacerbated by a gimmicky stand, with one of the ugliest loving JoJo characters this side of that one prisoner that looks like a freaking ape in the background
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Apr 17, 2016 17:59
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Yo Yo Ma also kinda sucked tbh, but any fight that heavily involves Annasui ends up sucking
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Apr 17, 2016 18:00
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I like Dragon's Dream better than Sun, Dark Blue Moon and Strength.  I don't think there's an outright BAD fight in Jojo, for what's worth. I can't remember anything at all about Pork Pie Hat Kid, tho.
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Apr 17, 2016 18:00
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Sun is in the same ranks as Doobie, it can't really be considered a normal fight tbh. Dark Blue Moon and Strength are better because at least the art and stands in those make sense and don't have ugly looking stand users.
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Apr 17, 2016 18:02
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I am not a big fan of the early fights in Steel Ball Run like the Boom Boom Family, but I wonder if that's more because they were, for a long time, the only translated chapters of SBR, instead of those insane chapters where Diego turns into a raptor.
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Apr 17, 2016 18:02
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Dias posted:I like Dragon's Dream better than Sun, Dark Blue Moon and Strength. 
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Apr 17, 2016 18:09
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Dias posted:I like Dragon's Dream better than Sun, Dark Blue Moon and Strength. Those three are all short as hell though so even if they're not great, they're unintrusive. DD is long enough to feel like a drag. YoYoMa also came to mind. Apes-Ma posted:I am not a big fan of the early fights in Steel Ball Run like the Boom Boom Family, but I wonder if that's more because they were, for a long time, the only translated chapters of SBR, instead of those insane chapters where Diego turns into a raptor. Not a huge fan of the Boom Boom either.
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Apr 17, 2016 18:12
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I remember liking Boom Boom but that's mostly because of the money shot with Johnny's stand blasting those fuckers out of the ground
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Apr 17, 2016 18:14
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My least favourite fight is probably Alessi. It's memorable, but it's just kinda dull. I wish it went the same way the old JoJos fighting game went, where Alessi uses Sethan on Joseph...and it turns him into Pt2 Hamon master Joseph.
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Apr 17, 2016 18:17
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Josuke Higashikata posted:Those three are all short as hell though so even if they're not great, they're unintrusive. DD is long enough to feel like a drag. YoYoMa also came to mind. The length is an issue, but I'd rate YoYoMa below it, yeah. I also don't think it's that confusing of a fight, it's a Feng Shui stand, if you follow the flux you are rewarded, etc. I'm really biased against the Fingerbang tho.
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Apr 17, 2016 18:19
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Dragon's Dream is probably the worst for me. Just did absolutely nothing for which is a shame cause it's an F.F. fight and F.F. is great. Notorious B.I.G gets big ups for me cause I'm tickled that Biggie of all things was referenced. Tomb of the Boom is also a good Stand name and I liked they all had different powers of magnetisim
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Apr 17, 2016 18:25
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Pork Pie Hat Kid is one of my favorite fights in SBR. Johnny hiding under a rock in the desert from those big hooks coming out of feathers floating in the air is such a great image. It's the first real crazy stand fight in that part, and the first time it really switches gears into horror.
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Apr 17, 2016 18:29
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worst fight is that car stand in part 3 who's name i don't remember
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Apr 17, 2016 18:37
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:I wish it went the same way the old JoJos fighting game went, where Alessi uses Sethan on Joseph...and it turns him into Pt2 Hamon master Joseph. It's better that it didn't go that way. Hermit Purple is good but having the youthful BT Joseph would be better than having Oldseph and if you're giving your protagonists a pretty big one time buff for a total mook, it sort of weakens both your protagonists and the future villains. "D'Arby the Gambler would NEVER have outsmarted Youngseph!" "Oingo Boing/Hol would have been figured out, and he'd have found the mansion" or other things like that.
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Apr 17, 2016 18:47
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