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I do think there's more to the Others than what we've seen so far and that there is a method to their madness, but I don't buy the marriage pact theory. It definitely doesn't jive with what we know about Rhaegar's plan. The theory suggests that Rhaegar's endgame plan was Jon all along (that is, a person who balanced ice and fire), when really it seems that Rhaegar wanted a Visenya to go with his existing children Aegon and Rhaenys in order to complete the three heads of the dragon, showing a preoccupation with a "Targaryen solution" to the encroaching threat of the Others rather than a desire to create a balance between ice and fire. Especially since, in the House of the Undying vision, Rhaegar attributes the song of ice and fire to his son Aegon, whose mother was a Martell. Moreover, from what we know about the Tourney of Harrenhal and the circumstances surrounding the Knight of the Laughing Tree, Rhaegar's attraction to Lyanna was unplanned and based entirely on her personal willfulness and strength of character rather than her Stark bloodline and alleged connection to the Others. Rhaergar wanted a baby mama that would give him a strong third child because his current wife was incapable of doing so and chose Lyanna because she proved that she was a badass.
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Apr 18, 2016 06:21
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Do people still buy into that elaborate theory about the White Walkers that that dude on Reddit posted back in 2014? This one https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/ I think the "Others aren't some mindless evil" part is pretty much fan canon by now, and most other things in the post are reasonable extrapolation: Others built the wall, wildlings are encroaching on Other territory, peace between Others and humans was achieved by some kind of treaty rather than a hero driving the Others away. I've never heard about Jon Snow taking an Other wife, and while it's not impossible, I think it's pretty unlikely. Because no female Others and in fact no individual Other with some sort of distinct personality have been mentioned anywhere in the book, and I think at this point in the series all parts of the ending should be laid out in some way. It's strange how people don't recognize that half of the remaining Stark children are turning evil. Arya constantly fantasizes about murdering people, and does in fact murder a bunch of people. Bran eats human meat, wargs into a person and considers molesting Meera using Hodor's body, which would put him up there with Ramsay Snow in the category of villains who manage to rape two people at the same time. But no, Arya is so cool because she doesn't want to be a lady. Not sure about the "Rickon turning feral" theory, but then again I didn't pick up on anything in the books, the most subtle thing I figured out on my own is that Tyrion poisoned that slavemaster guy with his mushrooms.
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Apr 18, 2016 06:27
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In It For The Tank posted:I don't think many people (or anyone really) think Bran is going to command the Others to kill the human race but he is certainly on a dark path and I've often joked that his is a supervillain origin's story in order to capture how hosed up everything in the far North is. I believe that Bloodraven (Mr. "the ends justify the means") and the Children are not as altruistic and humanitarian as they seem at first glance and that, while they can broadly be categorized as against the Others, they do not have humanity's best interests at heart and/or are not above paying any price for the "greater good". There's just too much body horror, complex moral questions, overt themes of sacrifice, dark magic, and Celtic influence in Bran's storyline for his destiny to be anything but tragic. Oh yea, goons generally are pretty level headed and don't take while leaps of logic for the most part. There's a reason the only place I discuss ASOIAF online is this thread, because people seriously believe that The Children and Bloodraven are straight up controlling the Others and all the attacks on their group is part of some crazy nth dimensional chess to get Bran to completely side with them. Why? Oh lots of weird evidence that is read into the show and books. These same people say that Arya is really a children of the forest because Bran makes passing mention that one of them reminds him of her. That's not because Bran doesn't really have a lot of frames of reference for young girls. It is obvious that Bloodraven has his own plans, he is someone who would be not above manipulating events in his favor. I mean, he could of known that sit would go sideways, and he needed to break down the authority of the Iron Throne in order to face the Others properly, because he has seen that Dany needs to return and have certain people in certain places, so he influences people like Ned. Though that kind of falls apart because there are few Weirwoods in the south and so he could not influence Tywin, Joff or Robert in any serious ways. You know that heartbreaking revelation may involve that shot of Meera looking up and being shocked. Maybe she looks up and sees Hordor being consumed by the trees.
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Apr 18, 2016 07:16
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I can only imagine the collective poo poo-fit that'll occur when the series ends not in a climactic battle, but in a round of intense treaty negotiations between Tyrion, Jon and the Night's King. The theory about the Others seems to hold a lot of water, but yeah I agree the "Jon will marry an Other" part is a bit silly. Given the notion of a "bittersweet" ending and not having dichotomous good/evil factions, my dumb theory for how the end-game will play out is: - Dany finally attacks and burns down a lot of the continent - Jon unites Westeros and the Others to defeat her, ending with the deaths of Dany and her dragons - the Others make it a condition of their retreat that Jon comes with them as a ward/hostage/exile (bearing in mind as well that with Dany dead he's the last Targaryen) - the Throne is thrust upon someone who doesn't want it, but can do a decent job of uniting the kingdoms with both diplomacy and marriage (Sansa would be my guess)
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Apr 18, 2016 07:33
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gently caress Theon, and gently caress all the Iron Born. Yes I just got up to that part of Season 2
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Apr 18, 2016 08:26
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pidan posted:, the most subtle thing I figured out on my own is that Tyrion poisoned that slavemaster guy with his mushrooms. Oh shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit no I got that too. The second time I read it 
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Apr 18, 2016 08:30
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The theory of the Others marching because there's humans in their lands makes no sense to me because (1) the Wildings have been there for many generations - so why get upset only now? and (2) it is mentioned specifically several times that the Others usually don't concentrate on attacking Wildlings but rather members of the Night's Watch.
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Apr 18, 2016 09:25
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Eh, I think the 'bittersweet' ending just means something basically akin to LOTR - the war is won, but not for our heroes, who have been changed too much by it. For example, if zombie Jon is powered by magic and dies again when magic leaves the world, or stuff like this. Martin is a fan of the Scouring of the Shire, too. Googling finds this interview: http://observer.com/2015/08/george-r-r-martins-ending-for-game-of-thrones-will-not-be-as-brutal-as-you-think/ .
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Apr 18, 2016 09:45
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There's also all the defences on the wall facing the North so wouldn't make sense for the others to build the wall to keep people out and then give them a sophisticated system of defence, if and when the others decide to invade.
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Apr 18, 2016 09:47
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meristem posted:
But I just read the wikipedia summary. Are the ruffians hobbits? Saruman lived in bag end and had a little hobbit gang? Just to say "Thought you saw the last of me, idiots?" or something? Aren't wizards like in universe angels? I'm trying to imagine an angel loving up so bad he starts a street gang and picks on a midget village because a midget once talked some trees into leaning on his poo poo and his dumb butler threw his phone out the window. Like I'm trying to imagine gabriel descending from heaven losing his fiery sword and taking over the tunnel rats right now. Just to get his throat slit by said idiot butler.
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Apr 18, 2016 11:21
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Without going too far into it, Saruman basically had no "power" left by the end of ROTK, only his voice. The ruffians are some hobbits and some men of Saruman's - it turns out a lot of the trouble started not long after Frodo & co left the Shire. But yes you're right, and that was basically the point. Saruman was so petty and worthless that he resorted to ruining the Shire simply because he could, rather than doing anything more useful. There's also hints that Gandalf knew (or had some idea) of what was going on, but just ignored it because he knew Frodo/Sam/Merry/Pippin had grown up enough to deal with it themselves.
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Apr 18, 2016 11:26
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Gandalf lied, lotho died. What did he know and when did he know it?
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Apr 18, 2016 11:32
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It seems kind of boring that what appears to be a battle against a demonic foe thousands of years in the making is actually a conflict over some savage humans occupying part of a wasteland that they're not supposed to be occupying.
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Apr 18, 2016 11:39
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The Scouring is Deeply Symbolic. Basically, even the little idyll the hobbits had had was not able to escape the travails of war unscarred, or something. Here is where you recall that the war Tolkien was writing about was to him a metaphor and an escape from the First World one, and the hobbits were basically the English province. (Also, that Tolkien was capable of inserting some darker thoughts into his writing, such as that the first orcs had been basically Reek-ified elves.) The relevance to ASOIAF is basically trivial - the 'nothing is sacred, nothing escapes unscathed'. It's just much more in the open in this series.
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Apr 18, 2016 11:58
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Krinkle posted:Gandalf lied, lotho died. What did he know and when did he know it? Bagendghazi
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Apr 18, 2016 12:34
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Does anyone know how far and how much the flashbacks are gonna go?
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Apr 18, 2016 13:03
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sajobi posted:Does anyone know how far and how much the flashbacks are gonna go? 
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Apr 18, 2016 13:05
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TOOT BOOT posted:Bran reaches back through time and teaches Jon to warg in one of the first two books. A lot of people overlook that scene but it seems really important, that you can influence the past. what? I dont remember this
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Apr 18, 2016 13:21
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Cause it's not true. When Jon wargs into Ghost and spies Mance's encampment along the banks of the Milky Water river he turns around and sees a weirwood, Bran is warged into the weirwood and interacts with him, in the process he opens Jon's third eye in the same way that Bloodraven opened his (by 'reaching out' with his spirit and touching ghost\jon's forehead), we assume that the opening of the third eye helps a skinchanger get more attuned to his powers but Jon was definitely warging before Bran reached out to him, on top of that and perhaps most importantly there is no time-travelinas this happens 'in the present' for both Bran and Jon, the chapter directly after this happens has Bran waking up in the crypts of winterfell and recalling how he's interacted with Jon\Ghost through a weirwood, no time fuckery involved.
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Apr 18, 2016 13:29
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meristem posted:The Scouring is Deeply Symbolic. Basically, even the little idyll the hobbits had had was not able to escape the travails of war unscarred, or something. Here is where you recall that the war Tolkien was writing about was to him a metaphor and an escape from the First World one, and the hobbits were basically the English province. (Also, that Tolkien was capable of inserting some darker thoughts into his writing, such as that the first orcs had been basically Reek-ified elves.) Tolkien has stated in interviews that he did not intend for LOTR to be an allegory for World War 1. It's probably fair to say that his writings were heavily influenced by it though. The attempted industrialization of the Shire by Saruman and his underlings definitely reflects what was going on in the real world at the time, but Tolkien went to great pains to insist his story wasn't an allegory for any of that and he wanted it to just stand on its own. To get back on topic, I don't expect the series to end in any grand battles between men and the white walkers because GRMM goes to great pains to subvert such expectations but I'm sure the White Walkers will gently caress up quite a bit of poo poo before Jon or whoever else manages to bring about some sort of lasting peace. I'm still trying to puzzle out how Jon will be resurrected. Mel seems too obvious. Maybe the accidental burning of him or Ghost will bring it about. Someone did that have that theory earlier in the thread of sacrificing the wolf to bring him back. I could dig that, especially since Ghost is the worst guard dog ever on the show anyways.
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Apr 18, 2016 14:22
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Ginette Reno posted:To get back on topic, I don't expect the series to end in any grand battles between men and the white walkers because GRMM goes to great pains to subvert such expectations but I'm sure the White Walkers will gently caress up quite a bit of poo poo before Jon or whoever else manages to bring about some sort of lasting peace. Lots of people expect him to write another book, for example.
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Apr 18, 2016 14:40
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what this series needs is a time paradox. Bran should reach out into the past via weirwood and convince Lyanna not to attend that tourney resulting in Rhaegar never "kidnapping" her, ensuring Robert never becoming King, Ned never marrying Cat and Bran never being born....thus never allowing Bran to meet Bloodraven and never loving with the past...
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Apr 18, 2016 14:43
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counterfeitsaint posted:Lots of people expect him to write another book, for example. poor fools
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Apr 18, 2016 14:49
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TommyGun85 posted:what this series needs is a time paradox. Bran does attempt to reach into the past once but the book is ambiguous as to whether he was successful or not.
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Apr 18, 2016 14:51
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When did Jon warg before Bran visited him in his dreams? I don't remember him having any wolf dreams prior to that chapter.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:15
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He is having a wolf dream in that chapter, before seeing Bran.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:18
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emanresu tnuocca posted:He is having a wolf dream in that chapter, before seeing Bran. But that dream is more abstract, he's not actually seeing what Ghost is seeing. We know this because after Bran opens Jon's third eye, he actually begins to see from Ghost's eyes.
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Apr 18, 2016 15:33
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Apr 18, 2016 17:09
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I had a dumb theory on how the Others work like vampires in that they can't enter a dwelling uninvited. The Wall is just a loophole in that it keeps them out by acting as a house that spans the continent, the oath serving to force people to live there and accept it as their home. Even specifying that once you're dead (and can therefore be brought back by the enemy), you're done. The wights have to be brought through the gate and then they're active on the other side. They respect Craster's house through a kind of feudal contract and there's a strong focus on the sanctity of hospitality especially in the Old Gods religion. The castle of Storm's End keeps out magic so that might be another instance, though I suspect that's supposed to be due to the protection of the Weirwood (like in the Wall, BR's cave and I assume Winterfell as well.) They can't enter Bloodraven's cave but maybe the reason is more mundane than a magical warding. Maybe the Frey's have weakened the strength of guest right and the protection of hospitality. There's also the idea that vampires can't cross running water, maybe that's why the Others can't go across it or maybe even the constantly melting and freezing wall of ice counts as "running water." Don't expect it to be true but I think it makes a bit of sense. I think some versions of fae had a similar thing going but I can't find it. twistedmentat posted:You know that heartbreaking revelation may involve that shot of Meera looking up and being shocked. Maybe she looks up and sees Hordor being consumed by the trees. Maybe they kill him so Bran can't leave? Ague Proof fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 17:25
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Ague Proof posted:I had a dumb theory on how the Others work like vampires in that they can't enter a dwelling uninvited. The Wall is just a loophole in that it keeps them out by acting as a house that spans the continent, the oath serving to force people to live there and accept it as their home. Even specifying that once you're dead (and can therefore be brought back by the enemy), you're done. The wights have to be brought through the gate and then they're active on the other side. its not an awful theory. it makes some sense. like why they wouldnt just murder Craster. I wonder how he learned all that poo poo.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:05
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I think they leave Craster alone because he offers his sons to be turned into Others.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:10
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If that were the only reason though why are they so genocidal to the wildlings, some of the more barbaric tribes would surely be down for such a thing. I know he's said we're going to get more info on the Others in the remaining books but I personally hope we never know the big stuff. I don't need detailed motivation and alignment charts and all that stuff for everything in a story. Leave some of it to the imagination. Love Crime fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 18:16
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Love Crime posted:Leave some of it to the imagination. Don't worry, GRRM is going to leave everything to your imagination.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:32
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Turdis McWordis posted:Don't worry, GRRM is going to leave everything to your imagination. Especially the last book he is "working" on.
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Apr 18, 2016 18:39
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Ague Proof posted:I had a dumb theory on how the Others work like vampires in that they can't enter a dwelling uninvited. The Wall is just a loophole in that it keeps them out by acting as a house that spans the continent, the oath serving to force people to live there and accept it as their home. Even specifying that once you're dead (and can therefore be brought back by the enemy), you're done. The wights have to be brought through the gate and then they're active on the other side. I actually really like the idea that the Others left Craster alone because he was entered into some kind of weird version of the guest right stuff that they value highly in the Seven Kingdoms. That's a cool parallel I never considered.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:09
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Beeez posted:But that dream is more abstract, he's not actually seeing what Ghost is seeing. We know this because after Bran opens Jon's third eye, he actually begins to see from Ghost's eyes. I'll need to re-read it, in any way we know of one Stark who's capable of warging and seemingly never had her third eye opened and that's Arya. By the way, I think there's cause to think Arya is a much more powerful skinchanger than Jon, her ability to just tap into random cats on a whim seems almost unprecedented, it's something Bran is only seemingly capable of doing once he's plugged into the weirnet and receives tutoring from bloodraven.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:17
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emanresu tnuocca posted:By the way, I think there's cause to think Arya is a much more powerful skinchanger than Jon, her ability to just tap into random cats on a whim seems almost unprecedented, it's something Bran is only seemingly capable of doing once he's plugged into the weirnet and receives tutoring from bloodraven. Arya's also spent lots of time being someone other than "Arya Stark" which probably gets her in the mindset to warg easier than the other Stark kids. As far as we know, Sansa's never shown even a glimmer of warging potential, right? Despite the fact that her direwolf is dead, you would think she'd have a dream of it or something.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:24
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WampaLord posted:Arya's also spent lots of time being someone other than "Arya Stark" which probably gets her in the mindset to warg easier than the other Stark kids. Arya being less of an individual is an interesting notion, I don't think it's true because I don't believe Arya has really ever given up on her own identity though. Another thing with Arya is that her 'unassisted' warg connection works all the way from Braavos to the Riverlands and is seemingly very visceral as she wakes up with the taste of Nymerya's meals in her mouth which is something Bran experiences with Summer but as far as I recall Jon is never said to have with Ghost (I might be wrong about that). Anyway, the only thing I can think of which might even be remotely indicative of passive warging abilities concerning Sansa is when she's at the fingers and Marillion is creeping up on her and the old dog she's hanging around with starts growling at him. It's the only time she's shown interacting with an animal (I don't think she even has on-page interactions with Lady) and her cozying up with an old dog is obviously also a reference to her feelings towards Sandor, of whom she has an erotic dream in that very chapter.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:38
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WampaLord posted:Arya's also spent lots of time being someone other than "Arya Stark" which probably gets her in the mindset to warg easier than the other Stark kids. neither did Ned, Rickon or Robb. So as far as we know its only Bran, Arya and Jon so far. Anyways, warging is stupid.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:38
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Iron swords are placed on the knees of the stone kings of Winter in Winterfell's crypts to stop their ghosts from rising, which is also how lords deny guest right.emanresu tnuocca posted:I'll need to re-read it, in any way we know of one Stark who's capable of warging and seemingly never had her third eye opened and that's Arya. Only cats.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:39
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