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Madkal posted:I don't know about recent stuff but Green Lantern Mosaic is amazing and really worth checking out if you want great John Stewart stuff. Yeah, that's probably the best you're going to get. I'd read Green Lantern (1990) #14-17 first, if you can. redbackground fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Apr 16, 2016 |
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Apr 16, 2016 20:05
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Is "Fear Itself" a good crossover?
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Apr 18, 2016 19:21
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Ultragonk posted:Is "Fear Itself" a good crossover? Oh lord no.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:22
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It's real bad. Easily one of the weakest books Matt Fraction has done for Marvel. About the best thing that can be said is that we got a pretty dece pinball table out of it.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:27
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The Human Beinz version of Nobody But Me uses the word "no" over 100 times in a 2 minute song. It's insufficient to answer your question.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:31
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Alien Rope Burn posted:It's real bad. Easily one of the weakest books Matt Fraction has done for Marvel. About the best thing that can be said is that we got a pretty dece pinball table out of it. We also got Kid Loki's Journey into Mystery. Winter Solder is also really good, but that should have spun off from the gulag arc.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:31
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I'd recommend the X-men FI Tie in but it's drawn by Greg Land.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:33
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I was reading some random Avengers stuff on the bus to and from work and it had some Fear Itself issues in it and they seemed kind of interesting so I looked it up and a few sites said it was an excellent series but I knew to ask here. Lying bastards all of them.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:42
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Civil War is considered good in general, and people like Dan Slott Spider-Man enough that it's regularly a top seller.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:44
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Aphrodite posted:Civil War is considered good in general, and people like Dan Slott Spider-Man enough that it's regularly a top seller. I quite liked Civil War but then i read through the entire Ultimate line and man that was a come down.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:50
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Ultragonk posted:Is "Fear Itself" a good crossover? It's in the bottom 5 crossovers of all time.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:51
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Lurdiak posted:It's in the bottom 5 crossovers of all time. I'm going to have to ask the question you want me to. What are the other 4?
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Apr 18, 2016 19:53
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Ultragonk posted:I'm going to have to ask the question you want me to. What are the other 4? I can't say with absolute authority, I just remember a blur of really really bad X-men and Avengers events in the 90s, and I don't feel comfortable calling Fear Itself the absolute worst due to that. There's also probably some DC stuff I'm not aware of. A more recent one that's probably worse than Fear Itself is Shadowland, which gets extra points deducted for wasting the most awesome premise ever. Daredevil tries running The Hand for a while, and Shadowland is about him finally going over the edge and declaring Ninja Martial Law in Hell's Kitchen. So Spider-man, Luke Cage, Ghost Rider, Iron Fist and Punisher have to save/stop him! And then nothing interesting or memorable happens and it turns out Daredevil was possessed by a demon the whole time.
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Apr 18, 2016 19:57
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Lurdiak posted:I can't say with absolute authority, I just remember a blur of really really bad X-men and Avengers events in the 90s, and I don't feel comfortable calling Fear Itself the absolute worst due to that. There's also probably some DC stuff I'm not aware of. That does sound like a waste of a cool premise. Did comics or Marvel get really bad in the 90s?
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Apr 18, 2016 20:09
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Did comics get bad in the '90s? Uh, what a preposterous notion sir.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:12
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Ultragonk posted:Did comics or Marvel get really bad in the 90s? I don't know if the percentage of bad comics was any worse than any other decade, and there's some really great stuff that came out of that time (Sandman, Starman, Kingdom Come, etc), but there was a very popular visual style that is really easy to mock in hindsight.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:14
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Ultragonk posted:That does sound like a waste of a cool premise. Did comics or Marvel get really bad in the 90s? You know that guy above mentioned a song that uses "No" like 200 times? Imagine that song but with the word "Yes" instead. There were SOME good comics in the 90's, but if you were to pick say 100 random issues of random comics from the 90's, about 94 of them would be awful, about 4 of them would be good witha few terrible/laughable elements, and the other 2 might be legit good comics that stand up today. Maybe.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:14
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Ultragonk posted:That does sound like a waste of a cool premise. Did comics or Marvel get really bad in the 90s? You have no idea. Basically the 90's were comics "exxxxtreme" era, where everything was more violent, hyper-sexualised and pretty stupid. With Image comics leading the front Marvel (and DC to a certain extent) tried to capitalize on the collector's marker releasing silver-embossed, chrome, 3-D bullshit covers hoping collectors would buy them all up. The comics themselves got very convoluted and every character had to out-exxxtreme the other one. This is not to say that there weren't awesome runs and great comics coming out of the 90's (just look at Vertigo, or Moench/Kelly's run on Batman which I still hold in high esteem) but the common trend in superhero comics was to go overboard and ape Image's style. Also Marvel was crashing and burning when the market collapsed and that lead to some questionable (but probably right) decisions being made (selling off film licensing), but some other really bad decisions (everything involving Onslaught/Heroes Reborn).
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Apr 18, 2016 20:16
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The '90s gave us thing like Gambit, Azrael, Carnage, Onslaught, Spawn, Zero Hour, and the Clone Saga. Anything else good it gave us can't even balance those few things out.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:21
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90s Marvel was so weird because it became artist-driven, then marketing driven. In the sense that marketing guys were sitting in on creative meetings and dictating things like how stories should go. About half of the weirdest poo poo in the Clone Saga came about due to a marketing guy telling creative to change their plans at the last minute because X aspect of the comic is really hot right now so make more like that! The 90s also had an extremely obnoxious style of crossover events where part 3 of a 6-part storyline would happen in the book you were currently reading, encouraging you to buy issues from 5 series you had no interest in reading to understand what the gently caress is going on in the only comic you care about.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:24
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I stopped reading comics right at the beginning of the 90s so I missed a lot of stuff. Though I did like the cartoons.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:27
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X-O posted:The '90s gave us thing like Gambit, Azrael, Carnage, Onslaught, Spawn, Zero Hour, and the Clone Saga. Anything else good it gave us can't even balance those few things out. Thanos Quest was published in 1990. Marvels was published in 1994. Avengers Forever was published in 1998-1999. 
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Apr 18, 2016 20:29
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prefect posted:Thanos Quest was published in 1990. Marvels was published in 1994. Avengers Forever was published in 1998-1999. I didn't say there weren't great things. And I didn't even get into stuff like Heroes Reborn or even publishing gimmicks and delays. The '90s were a nightmare with brief shining beacons of hope.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:37
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Lurdiak posted:The 90s also had an extremely obnoxious style of crossover events where part 3 of a 6-part storyline would happen in the book you were currently reading, encouraging you to buy issues from 5 series you had no interest in reading to understand what the gently caress is going on in the only comic you care about. That still happens, you know. I just picked up Spider-Gwen on Wednesday and was uber confused at what was going on until I got to the end and noticed it was part two in a crossover with Silk and Spider-Woman.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:38
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X-O posted:I didn't say there weren't great things. And I didn't even get into stuff like Heroes Reborn or even publishing gimmicks and delays. The '90s were a nightmare with brief shining beacons of hope. Yeah, I was just being contrary. 
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Apr 18, 2016 20:38
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Uthor posted:That still happens, you know. I just picked up Spider-Gwen on Wednesday and was uber confused at what was going on until I got to the end and noticed it was part two in a crossover with Silk and Spider-Woman. It's only an occasional problem in the modern day.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:39
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I'm actually curious how well the good stuff sold compared to the bad stuff. During the early and mid-90's all the gimmick poo poo was selling like gangbusters but how well did Marvels or Kingdom Come sell?
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Apr 18, 2016 20:43
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So, in general, was DC better than Marvel story wise during the 90s? Or was it a very mixed bag from all involved?
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Apr 18, 2016 20:52
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Madkal posted:I'm actually curious how well the good stuff sold compared to the bad stuff. During the early and mid-90's all the gimmick poo poo was selling like gangbusters but how well did Marvels or Kingdom Come sell? I'm afraid we'll have to consult the most trusted source at the time, The Wizard Top 10!   And now I'm reminded that Shi was a thing that existed.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:52
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Ultragonk posted:So, in general, was DC better than Marvel story wise during the 90s? Or was it a very mixed bag from all involved? Both were like trail mix with razor blades and used syringes mixed in with the tasty bits. But DC was never better than Marvel
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Apr 18, 2016 20:54
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Ultragonk posted:So, in general, was DC better than Marvel story wise during the 90s? Or was it a very mixed bag from all involved? 
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Apr 18, 2016 20:54
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Even decade of comics is full of terrible poo poo, the 90's are notable not in that the poo poo was worse but that it was directed in a way that it nearly collapsed the market.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:54
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Also in that Wizard Top 10 notice how Artist gets top billing over Writer and how bad most of that art looks. There's the '90s in a nutshell for you.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:56
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Mr. Maltose posted:Even decade of comics is full of terrible poo poo, the 90's are notable not in that the poo poo was worse but that it was directed in a way that it nearly collapsed the market. And it was the most visible comics ever were in the mainstream (since the Comics Code hearings anyway)
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Apr 18, 2016 20:56
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X-O posted:Also in that Wizard Top 10 notice how Artist gets top billing over Writer and how bad most of that art looks. There's the '90s in a nutshell for you. I've never heard of Shi or Lady Death, are those Image books?
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Apr 18, 2016 20:58
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Lurdiak posted:And it was the most visible comics ever were in the mainstream (since the Comics Code hearings anyway) That's definitely part of it, yeah.
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Apr 18, 2016 20:59
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zoux posted:I've never heard of Shi or Lady Death, are those Image books? Shi is not surprising. How you've been aware of comics at all for any period of time and not been unfortunately exposed to Lady Death is a surprise. No, neither were Image.
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Apr 18, 2016 21:01
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Painting the 90s with such a broad brush bugs me because it had already started trying to remedy its worst excessed by the end of the decade. It sort of feels like the extent to which our popular understanding of the early middle ages is the product of Victorians pointing back and trying to find a model to juxtapose themselves again-- so for example, the Busiek/Perez avengers and to a lesser extent the Busiek/Bagley Thunderbolts-- really the Busiek anything in the 90s-- already feels like a very stylized attempt to do comics against the grain of the early Image ideal, such that a post-facto understanding of that era is already mediated through people (people still firmly in the 90s!) trying to codify as part of pushing against. So I would say, no, comics didn't necessarily get really bad in the 90s. It's a hard era to be nostalgic for because there was a lot of junk-- and it's easy to conjure up a gestalt vision of Liefeldian constipation as metonymous of the entire decade-- and a lot of facile attempts to chase the Image dragon (Herb Trimpe's pencils on the FF in the 90s are as damning an exhibit A as you could ask for), but also a lot, a lot, a lot of attempts to throw something new at the wall to see if it would stick. Even in mainstream Marvel and DC lines you find Larry Hama's weirdly pulp-operatic Wolverine, John Ostrander on The Spectre, Martian Manhunter, and the tail-end of Suicide Squad, any number of PAD things if that's your idea of a good time, Mark Waid on The Flash, Matthew Tyler's wonderful Hourman, most of the very fun No Man's Land crossover, Morrison's Justice League, some very lovely Mark Bagley pencils on some very mediocre Spider-Man stories, Star Man, Hitman if you like Hitman, Warren Ellis' hyper-Ellisy Hellstrom, long chunks of being able to look at Alan Davis pencils (not always illustrating great material, but...), Joe Kelly's Deadpool I suppose (I don't love it but I get why people do), Aztek, oodle of Christopher Priest, Chichester's uneven but interesting tenure on Daredevil, long stretches of astonishingly readable Nicieza and Lobdell stories in ancillary X-books, some charming Kyle Rayner stories, Pasqual Ferry's gorgeously expressive early pencils, and that's to say nothing of the bajillions of great indie comics coming out at the same time. Granted, some of these are from the tail-end of the decade, but hey. They 90s were far from the pinnacle of comics, but it was still very easy to walk into a comic book store on any given week and find an embarrassment of riches. You could, if you wanted-- but don't do actually do this-- make a point of ONLY reading comics from the 90s and be set for a very long while before having to settle for less than very good material. If the only comics you ever read were, say, Bone, Hellboy, and the 90s portions of Love & Rockets and Dykes to Watch Out For, I mean that wouldn't be a terrible little slice of time to have dipped into.
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Apr 18, 2016 21:02
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zoux posted:I've never heard of Shi or Lady Death, are those Image books?
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Apr 18, 2016 21:03
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zoux posted:I've never heard of Shi or Lady Death, are those Image books? You know Tarot: Witch of the Black Rose? Lady Death is basically the same thing.
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Apr 18, 2016 21:05
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