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i think of all the survivalmans roguelikes, unreal world is my favorite although i never really got into cataclysm.
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Apr 17, 2016 08:05
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I wish there were more roguelikes in the style of Cataclysm, Neo Scavenger, and Unreal World.
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Apr 17, 2016 08:07
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So I was playing with the Drill Pod on Too Easy mode and got a floor with those giant red crystal guys. One unlucky (or lucky for him, anyway) rhino later and my crystal folded under 50 bazillion of them and I had a buttload of Tesla modules in the entry rooms. gently caress.
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Apr 17, 2016 08:37
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One other thing about Enter the Gungeon - it's gotten pretty positive reviews, but I've looked over the reviews and found the following complaints:
I'm not sure if those are legit complaints, or more of a "rogue likes are hard a bloo bloo bloo  " response. Yes, I realize I'm agonizing over a $15 purchase when I went and bought gems like DayZ Standalone for much more money. 
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Apr 17, 2016 14:01
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Three-Phase posted:One other thing about Enter the Gungeon - it's gotten pretty positive reviews, but I've looked over the reviews and found the following complaints: I dunno, all those things sound like they'd be annoying even if you weren't losing  Especially the first two combined.
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Apr 17, 2016 14:09
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I think that over time the developers will probably work out balancing issues. That is stuff that developers can easily tweak over time. I might "take one for the team" and buy it to see what my own opinion is, since I'm a "long time reader first time caller" as far as Roguelikes go. I also just noticed that there is a Co-Op mode - playing this with other goons might be an awful lot of fun. (Or a complete disaster, which may or may not also be an awful lot of fun.)
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Apr 17, 2016 14:26
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Three-Phase posted:One other thing about Enter the Gungeon - it's gotten pretty positive reviews, but I've looked over the reviews and found the following complaints: Yeah, those are valid complaints. They increased key droprates which mitigates all of them a little bit, but there's still alot of fixing to do so the optimal strat isn't "use your starter weapon for 3 out of 5/6 floors" to hedge your bets against rng fuckery. The base gameplay is really fun though and the devs have been responsive.
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Apr 17, 2016 14:55
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currently the comparisons between nuclear throne and gungeon aren't entirely fair imo, nuclear throne is an extremely polished product after over a year of player feedback during the creation process. if (IF) the gungeon devs take a cue from that and refine their game it'll hopefully become a lot better, although i'm not familiar with their process so i don't know how far their tuning will go i want it to be good because it has loads of style
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Apr 17, 2016 15:12
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I haven't played Nuclear Throne or Binding of Issac, so this will be an interesting experience. I want to see how far I can get on a semi-blind first run. EDIT: This is pretty fun. Three-Phase fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 17, 2016 |
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Apr 17, 2016 16:19
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Three-Phase posted:I haven't played Nuclear Throne or Binding of Issac, so this will be an interesting experience. I want to see how far I can get on a semi-blind first run. It's fun until you learn how it works, gets boring once you figure out the optimal strategy and realize how bad the RNG system is, then fun again when you either a) become skilled enough with the basic pistol that only 1-in-20 runs or so completely screw you or b) you earn enough meta-money to continuously buy the actual super fun game mode that the game locks behind an NPC and cost-per-run. Hopefully the game gets enough attention that those last two points are revised to just be the first point again and stay fun.
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Apr 17, 2016 19:21
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nuclear throne will probably still be on top for that style of gameplay unless they rework things a fair bit to actually make it more 'fun'
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Apr 17, 2016 19:27
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Floodkiller posted:you earn enough meta-money to continuously buy the actual super fun game mode that the game locks behind an NPC and cost-per-run. what's this then?
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Apr 17, 2016 19:38
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Fayez Butts posted:what's this then? There's an NPC that you can find in the dungeon that, when rescued, offers you the ability to "bless" a run for 6 hegemoney in the Breach. This blessing restricts you to one gun that is randomized into a different gun after a certain amount of kills/damage (or running out of ammo). Each gun comes with full ammo, and picking up a new gun randomizes your weapon again. This means you can actually use all the super fun weapons throughout all the rooms instead of saving most of them for bosses/floors 4+. The problem is that it costs 6 hegemoney and also stops your run from dropping any additional hegemoney, so you can't keep the game mode going infinitely.
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Apr 17, 2016 20:17
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That sounds fun, but those limitations are hecka stupid
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Apr 17, 2016 20:20
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Fayez Butts posted:That sounds fun, but those limitations are hecka stupid Gungeon in a
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Apr 17, 2016 22:12
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Three-Phase posted:Does Enter the Gungeon work well on control pads like the PC Xbox pad? Gamepad gives you auto aim, so it's easier to focus on dodging, and you can move in more than 8 directions, and can move at 2 different speeds The mouse gives you more control over who you're targeting though, and can target environmental objects better. It's more fun imo, despite being significantly harder to use
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Apr 17, 2016 22:39
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   3D! Unormal fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Apr 18, 2016 |
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Apr 18, 2016 03:44
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Floodkiller posted:There's an NPC that you can find in the dungeon that, when rescued, offers you the ability to "bless" a run for 6 hegemoney in the Breach. This blessing restricts you to one gun that is randomized into a different gun after a certain amount of kills/damage (or running out of ammo). Each gun comes with full ammo, and picking up a new gun randomizes your weapon again. This means you can actually use all the super fun weapons throughout all the rooms instead of saving most of them for bosses/floors 4+. The problem is that it costs 6 hegemoney and also stops your run from dropping any additional hegemoney, so you can't keep the game mode going infinitely. I would buy Enter the Gungeon if this mode was selectable from the start, and without the hegemoney restrictions.
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Apr 18, 2016 05:26
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Smoking Gun IV is amazing but wow, I can't get past floor 15 on Drill Pod! It seems like I never find the exit in time. That Sanitary Pod will be forever locked for me...
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Apr 18, 2016 08:08
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Gungeon is just too goddamn long to not have boss training, especially with how fat and bulletspammy their bosses are relative to the other enemies.
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Apr 18, 2016 12:41
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hito posted:Gungeon is just too goddamn long to not have boss training, especially with how fat and bulletspammy their bosses are relative to the other enemies. I don't know, the bosses are pretty easy to wing it the first time through thanks to blanks letting you panic skip a move if you are caught unprepared. The only bosses I died to when fighting them for the first time were Wallmonger because it was a large enough change in gameplay to throw me off, and the Lich's third phase on my first trip to Bullet Hell because I full explored the level before fighting it and lost 2.5 hearts doing so, when I only needed to have maybe a half-heart more to beat it  I agree that the rest of the levels can grind your health/resources down to the point of failure when you finally reach the boss. However, those are issues with the game's systems making the levels a slog; out of all my complaints about the game, none of them are about the bosses (or the lack of ability to practice fight them).
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Apr 18, 2016 13:28
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Three-Phase posted:One other thing about Enter the Gungeon - it's gotten pretty positive reviews, but I've looked over the reviews and found the following complaints: I've been really enjoying Deathstate lately. Decent droprates and the enemies are killable.
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Apr 18, 2016 17:13
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Deathstate is a super cool + fun game and you should check it out if you want a slightly different spin on the BoI formula.
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Apr 18, 2016 22:46
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Three-Phase posted:I might "take one for the team" and buy it  hito posted:Gungeon is just too goddamn long to not have boss training, especially with how fat and bulletspammy their bosses are relative to the other enemies.
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Apr 19, 2016 00:10
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madjackmcmad posted:What about boss training in other roguelikes? I've always wondered if the Dungeonmans Academy might do well to have an Arena where you can practice against monsters you've died to. Sure seems about as lite as you can get in a roguelite though. In my opinion, the necessity of boss training rooms scales with the amount of time/effort it takes to get to the boss, with the speed with which the boss can kill you, and with how obvious it is what you did wrong. This is why e.g. Little Hunter in Nuclear Throne is so reviled: for a new player, simply getting to him is a matter of a dozen runs or more that fail at some earlier point, and then when you do reach him he can kill you in half a second through some fast attack that you can sometimes not even see coming (and there's no instant replay to show what exactly happened). So it's a long time between attempts, and it's entirely possible to learn very little from each attempt.
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Apr 19, 2016 00:23
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I'll echo Deathstate being fun, it's very gratifying to watch hordes of enemies melt away from your shots.
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Apr 19, 2016 00:46
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That's one of the reasons old school shmups are so murderously hard. Not only is just getting to later bosses difficult, defeating them is often a mountain. Granted, that's if you're going for 1 credit clears, and you have the escape valve of just continuing a bunch to practice - or these days, emulating and restoring right at said boss. I definitely appreciate any game that either offers shortcuts or practice against really difficult foes. Roguelikes are a weird case because ignorance is often (always?) fatal, which tends to naturally combine with developer desire to make a challenging endgame to create a really difficult endgame if you don't know what you're walking into. Or a really easy one, if vertical progression has turned you into a demigod at some point in the midgame I guess  Bosses in roguelikes are... often kinda bad, come to think of it. But bosses in a lot of games are often pretty bad, so I don't blame roguelikes much for that.
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Apr 19, 2016 01:05
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Floodkiller posted:I don't know, the bosses are pretty easy to wing it the first time through thanks to blanks letting you panic skip a move if you are caught unprepared. The only bosses I died to when fighting them for the first time were Wallmonger because it was a large enough change in gameplay to throw me off, and the Lich's third phase on my first trip to Bullet Hell because I full explored the level before fighting it and lost 2.5 hearts doing so, when I only needed to have maybe a half-heart more to beat it I suck at the game and a boss practice mode would be really nice for me
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Apr 19, 2016 01:10
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victrix posted:Roguelikes are a weird case because ignorance is often (always?) fatal, which tends to naturally combine with developer desire to make a challenging endgame to create a really difficult endgame if you don't know what you're walking into. Or a really easy one, if vertical progression has turned you into a demigod at some point in the midgame I guess I would expand that more generally into "bosses in RPGs are often bad". Because so much of what determines your success in the boss fight comes down to a) your build (which is set in stone when the fight starts), and b) your pro-active defenses against specific boss tactics. And neither of these are things that you can plausibly really take advantage of unless you know how the boss fights in advance. If you know going into the fight that the boss relies on heavy physical attacks, then you can rearrange your gear to emphasize evasion, maybe re-spec character(s) to have lots of counterattacks, etc. But if you don't have that knowledge, then you're stuck with making a generalist build and hoping that that's enough to survive the boss. Which it often is, since RPGs usually aren't meant to be hard games -- which leads to the problem that you end up just applying the same tactics to every fight. Roguelikes just emphasize this because of their tendency to extreme lethality, where you can go from apparently perfectly healthy to tombstone in a small handful of turns. Not all roguelikes are like this, of course, but many are. My favorite RPG combat engine ever was the Grandia II engine (well, the Grandia engine in general), and it's one I've been kind of wanting to try replicating in a pseudo-roguelike format. It's a realtime-with-pause engine, where each actor in the fight has multiple phases: Recovery -> Select Action -> Charge -> Execute Action -> Recovery. Depending on the action the actor wants to perform, some of these phases are longer than others. E.g. casting a spell has a long charge time but an instantaneous execution time, while attacking has no charge time whatsoever, but execution involves running over to the target so you can whack them in the face. Defending has instant charge and execute, and lasts until you finish your recovery phase. Every time an actor takes damage, they briefly pause in their current phase, and if they get hit by attacks with the Cancel property while in the Charge phase, then they get booted back to Recovery. This allows the careful player to see nasty attacks coming and take reactive steps to protect themselves, and it requires fun judgement calls like "do I have enough time to run up to this guy and cancel his attack before he reaches my healer and spikes her?", or "will my spell go off before his does if I pick a lower-level, faster-charging spell?" EDIT: to be clear, the enemies' pending actions are made clear as soon as they enter the Charge phase. TooMuchAbstraction fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 01:36
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As much as I love Dungeonmans, it's getting real tiresome how being one-shotted is the cause of something like 50% of my deaths. This is the third character who, despite having high Stremf and a very good set of Real Armour (and in this case, a heavy shield as well), got turned into a fine red mist in a single turn because I got a purpleonian cultist boss at the end of a graveyard I'd been effortlessly stomping up to that point, and the first thing he did was charge and do significantly more than my max health in a single attack. It's a little ridiculous that a character who can utterly clobber Legendary overworld encounters gets instantaneously pulped by the boss of an area marked as "adventurous."  At least with those Cryoduchess jerks you can stack cold resistance ahead of time, but the only resistance to "getting violently disassembled by Pyramid Head painted in the colours of the bisexual pride flag" is being swole and armoured as hell, and stacking more of that just makes it more frustrating when I get turned into a bug on a windshield anyway. Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 02:17
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madjackmcmad posted:Yeah, those 90% 2800+ reviewers Steam games are a huge risk. Such courage I think the value of boss training depends on how instanced the roguelike is. In highly non-modal games, boss training isn't that useful because it's the broader context that makes it matter. You could "boss train" in Crawl wizmode, but hardly anyone does, and why would you? The other enemies in sight, how much of the floor you've cleared, what consumables you have, etc. all matter so much even for the same character type that "boss training" wouldn't even make sure. And actually, this is why I don't mind lacking boss training in Nuclear Throne even though Lil Hunter is an enormous dickhead. NT is pretty darn non-modal! The terrain is super important, the short term burst you have is super important, whether you have boiling veins matters a lot, etc. "Boss training" against Lil Hunter would require the game to random you into weapons and mutations and different terrain and different sets of enemies, and that's a good indicator that boss training wouldn't be that relevant in the first place. The problem with boss battles in super instanced roguelikes is that the game is about how much a single randomized instance can surprise you...but since the boss is it's own unique entity, the boss can't ever surprise you! So to keep it relevant they tend to just make the boss fights a quantitatively different thing than the normal game, or just a lot harder. Gungeon scores okay here because at least game experience is mostly transferable to boss experience and it's not forcing you to develop an entirely new skillset. But it's just so goddamn long and the bosses are so fat that you have to keep up your concentration for a pretty long singular block after having to slog through a bunch of little ones. After dying once in level 3 it's like, well, I could spend another half-hour to take a single crack at that fight? Or I could not.
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Apr 19, 2016 02:45
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I think my ideal-in-my-head-anyway roguelike boss is one that's been "watching" you or shadowing you through the game. It'd either arm itself in response to your build in a way that's interesting, challenging, but ultimately beatable, or dress itself in your leftover scraps like some kind of wannabe Dark Link.
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Apr 19, 2016 03:04
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I think the ideal boss is one that randomly generated through some algorithm like a crawl Pan Lord, monstrously powerful, but the game slowly reveals what the boss will have. Rather than it adapting to you I like the idea that you have to tilt yourself in preparation for an unknown foe. Especially imagine if you had to balance getting that knowledge against actually progressing...! It's something I've actually toyed with in a board game design, but really solo-enabled boardgames are just roguelikes that are forced to be better about managing their pacing issues.
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Apr 19, 2016 03:16
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I'm doing a lot better in SotS the pit now that I have all the recipes, I get to floor 25ish before running out of ammo. I guess I have to melee more, but man monsters are nasty at that depth.
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Apr 19, 2016 04:34
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doctorfrog posted:I think my ideal-in-my-head-anyway roguelike boss is one that's been "watching" you or shadowing you through the game. It'd either arm itself in response to your build in a way that's interesting, challenging, but ultimately beatable, or dress itself in your leftover scraps like some kind of wannabe Dark Link. That's...a real interesting idea. I always thought in Darkest Dungeon they should really have the heroes that die when you send them into the dungeon without supplies for a greed run; or the ones you throw away once they are loaded up with phobias because it's too expensive to cure them, ambush your team in the dungeon as a mini boss. The Forsaken or something. More along the lines of your idea, some sort of "patchwork thief" or "animated suit of armor" that is made up of the equipment you discarded would be interesting. In DCSS I suppose they could repurpose the "ghost" code for this?
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Apr 19, 2016 07:02
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Cosmonautica and Dragon Fin Soup showed up for half price on Steam. Supposedly "roguelike elements". Anyone play them?
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Apr 19, 2016 07:21
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Suspicious posted:I'm doing a lot better in SotS the pit now that I have all the recipes, I get to floor 25ish before running out of ammo. I guess I have to melee more, but man monsters are nasty at that depth. I had more success (have never completed the game on normal) when I started using the Ranger.
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Apr 19, 2016 07:48
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Samizdata posted:I've been really enjoying Deathstate lately. Decent droprates and the enemies are killable. Irony.or.Death posted:Deathstate is a super cool + fun game and you should check it out if you want a slightly different spin on the BoI formula. Justin_Brett posted:I'll echo Deathstate being fun, it's very gratifying to watch hordes of enemies melt away from your shots. Daaamn dudes.  I don't pitch it much on here but I'm the lead dev on Deathstate.We're still listening to feedback and trying to improve balance and gameplay. Just pushed a new patch yesterday! If anyone's gonna be in Boston, we'll be at PAX East this week. Come to the booth and we can awkwardly mumble about stairs to each other.
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Apr 19, 2016 16:45
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Helical Nightmares posted:Cosmonautica and Dragon Fin Soup showed up for half price on Steam. Supposedly "roguelike elements". Anyone play them? i would not spend money on dragon fin soup
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Apr 19, 2016 22:14
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superh posted:Daaamn dudes. Can I just ask you what is the deal with lasers? Is there a benefit that's not obvious on the player end? Because on the player end they look cool and feel like garbage, which has confused me as long as I've been playing. I think that's the worst thing I have to say about the game.
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Apr 19, 2016 22:27
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