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There was, at least in part, a more emotive reason for large scale strategic bombing of civilians, at least by the RAF. While all sorts of justifications were drawn up by Bomber Command to explain "de-housing" even Churchill thought it was bombing "simply for the sake of increasing terror". In terms of sheer efficiency for military reasons, there'll always be a debate, but in terms of efficiently killing 20,000 people and ending the city of Dresden, ten (I think) Lancasters doesn't seem that much of a price to pay. Harris made the psychological, if not strategic, justification clear: "The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put that rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now, they are going to reap the whirlwind." Vengeance. Whatever the strategic reason, that motivation was there. Edit: there's a lesson here in not keeping tabs open for hours lenoon fucked around with this message at 17:40 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 17:38
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Deteriorata posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_prisoners_of_war_in_the_Soviet_Union This link from the wiki is pretty amazing - small cartoons with notes about the process. http://kiuchi.jpn.org/en/nobindex.htm
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Apr 19, 2016 17:40
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bewbies posted:The biggest issue with the B-36 delay was its engines...the rest of the thing (outside of the gun turrets) was actually pretty conventional, and while complex it wasn't anything much past the B-29. The engines though weren't really in a useable state until well into 1945, and I think the first B-36 prototypes didn't even use the Wasp Majors, this in 1947. I have no idea if that could have been accelerated had the mission the B-36 was designed for (bombing Europe from the US) actually materialized but the issues that both the B-29 and B-36 had with their engines doesn't lend itself to much optimism. It is amazing when you look at the number of aircraft development projects that were either killed outright or had major issues and missed performance objectives because of engine troubles. For every R-2800 success story there is a story of woe like the R-4360 or R-3350. The post war Westinghouse J40 is a great example of this in impacting a number of the USN's projects.
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Apr 19, 2016 17:52
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Deteriorata posted:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_prisoners_of_war_in_the_Soviet_Union The GULag (Glavnoye Upravleniye Lagerei, Chief Directorate of Camps) was, you guessed it, in charge of all camps, including POW ones. There is no "everyone else" unless you're saying that some Japanese POWs were released directly by whatever Red Army unit was holding them.
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Apr 19, 2016 17:52
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cheerfullydrab posted:That's an argument that never existed. Uh, okay? I guess I'm mostly addressing what I read Nebakebezzer's post as suggesting here. That it's very surprising and unusual that the Soviets did this with Japanese POWs and that the West (?) would have been expected to protest it. Fangz fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 17:58
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Ensign Expendable posted:The GULag (Glavnoye Upravleniye Lagerei, Chief Directorate of Camps) was, you guessed it, in charge of all camps, including POW ones. There is no "everyone else" unless you're saying that some Japanese POWs were released directly by whatever Red Army unit was holding them. By "everyone else" I meant the other allies, who simply kept POWs interred where they were until they were repatriated within a couple years of the end of the war.
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Apr 19, 2016 18:02
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Fangz posted:Uh, okay? I guess I'm mostly addressing what I read Nebakebezzer's post as suggesting here. That it's very surprising and unusual that the Soviets did this with Japanese POWs and that the West (?) would have been expected to protest it. The fact that the Soviets didn't give up German POWs as fast as everyone wanted was A Thing politically in the late 40s and early 50s. This is in the context of the early Cold War, of course, so there was a lot of "go gently caress yourselves" involved. Still, there was pressure and it was something that people cared about. It wasn't just the fact that it was a lovely thing to do, once the ashes cooled on Tojo's Japan and Hitler's Germany everyone was scrambling to make sure those countries were in the West's camp for the Cold War. Cold War politics is a big part of why war crimes trials lost so much steam in that period as well.
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Apr 19, 2016 18:03
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WoodrowSkillson posted:That's a flintlock, i'd bet its an older version of the above wall gun.
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Apr 19, 2016 18:25
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HEY GAL posted:nope, percussion cap pfft
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Apr 19, 2016 18:29
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Also, the Chinese wall guns were black powder cartridge guns firing .60 to .75 caliber bullets (there wasn't a lot of consistency in bore diameter, but the few who have them today start with 20 gauge slugs for rolling their own ammo). Punt guns were oversized shotguns.
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Apr 19, 2016 18:38
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lenoon posted:Isn't that a perfect example of an over designed military boondoggle? Like the f35 of the fifteenth century? the dumbest thing the 17th century produced, which is saying a lot https://leatherworkingreverendsmusings.wordpress.com/2012/11/23/the-double-armed-man/
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Apr 19, 2016 18:44
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haha, do you have other countries' for comparison
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Apr 19, 2016 18:52
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Didn't the French pick up a crazy long one fighting in North Africa against light cavalry with quite long lances?
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Apr 19, 2016 19:00
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I should dig up the old panoramic shot I took of the SAC museum's big hangar, they've got a B-36 in there, snugged in with a B-52, a B-25, and a B-17 plus some other late-WWII/cold war planes. Also Curtis LeMay's desk in case you forgot what those planes were supposed to be carrying. The B-36 is just looming back there and you don't get a sense of the scale of it until your eyes see the B-17, then the 52, then the wing and fuselage of the 36 behind it all.
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Apr 19, 2016 19:09
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HEY GAL posted:look oh my loving god
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Apr 19, 2016 19:10
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Hogge Wild posted:haha, do you have other countries' for comparison I wasn't kidding when I called it an arms race. Here are pictures of one of my m98/05 "butcher blade" bayos for the German G98. It's next to a set of stake knives and a pen to give you an idea of scale:  Why the steak knives? Because the company that made the bayo was a well known knife company and is still making stake knives. I had just gotten married when I took the photo and the knives were part of the wedding schwag. They still use the same little dudes on their maker's mark and everything. 
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Apr 19, 2016 19:17
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Have you ever bayoneted a steak?
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Apr 19, 2016 19:19
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Ensign Expendable posted:Have you ever bayoneted a steak? I will admit that I cut a piece of pot roast off with the G98 bayo up there just because.
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Apr 19, 2016 19:28
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That's cute. In similar vein, Fiskars is the world's leading scissors maker today but they've also made bayonets for Finnish army in the past. FROM MOOMIN VALLEY'S HEART I STAB AT THEE!   edit: although I guess the other big Finnish knife maker Hackman has a more suitable name for these things... 
Nenonen fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 19:29
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FAUXTON posted:I should dig up the old panoramic shot I took of the SAC museum's big hangar, they've got a B-36 in there, snugged in with a B-52, a B-25, and a B-17 plus some other late-WWII/cold war planes. Also Curtis LeMay's desk in case you forgot what those planes were supposed to be carrying. Wikipedia only have the one comparison picture, but I have another that's a B-17, B-47 and the Big Stick IIRC. (No access to imagehosts at work.  )There's also the aerial shot of a group of B-36s post-tornado.  edit: finally fixed my spelling of that one word Zamboni Apocalypse fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 19:33
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Wasn't that the alleged bayonet that if found was saw toothed on a German not lead to the happiest of consequences?
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Apr 19, 2016 19:36
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Nenonen posted:That's cute. In similar vein, Fiskars is the world's leading scissors maker today but they've also made bayonets for Finnish army in the past. I think that the started by making weapons in the 17th century. And iirc they've also made the shovels that the American Marines use. xthetenth posted:Didn't the French pick up a crazy long one fighting in North Africa against light cavalry with quite long lances? I really want to see pics of these. Cyrano4747 posted:I wasn't kidding when I called it an arms race. Here are pictures of one of my m98/05 "butcher blade" bayos for the German G98. It's next to a set of stake knives and a pen to give you an idea of scale: Nice!
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Apr 19, 2016 19:37
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SeanBeansShako posted:Wasn't that the alleged bayonet that if found was saw toothed on a German not lead to the happiest of consequences? Everyone had variations on the saw toothed bayo. I'm sure there was a version of the 98/05 that was as well. I've always wondered how much truth there was to people getting killed if found with them. They weren't some kind of brutal hand to hand weapon, they were a multi-tool for engineers. Mostly they were used for hooking and raising barbed wire so it could be cleared. I've always been skeptical of that line about people with them being killed on sight because you would think that most people involved in that war would be aware of the basic use of that kind of equipment. It just seems a lot like the sort of "hard core poo poo" story that someone comes up with after seeing one of those in a milsurp catalog in the 60s.
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Apr 19, 2016 19:46
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Cyrano4747 posted:Everyone had variations on the saw toothed bayo. I'm sure there was a version of the 98/05 that was as well. I've always wondered how much truth there was to people getting killed if found with them. They weren't some kind of brutal hand to hand weapon, they were a multi-tool for engineers. Mostly they were used for hooking and raising barbed wire so it could be cleared. Kind of funny in the middle of a Trench Raid to suddenly grow a conscious on what is a humane killing weapon and what isn't too. Also, I've seen Napoleonic era Sappers with blades like that. I imagine they were used for pretty much practical engineering rather that pig sticking dudes.
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Apr 19, 2016 19:49
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Wasn't the serrated bayonet thing in All Quiet on the Western Front? That's a pretty great starting place for a "rumor becomes truth" kind of deal.
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Apr 19, 2016 19:50
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bewbies posted:Wasn't the serrated bayonet thing in All Quiet on the Western Front? That's a pretty great starting place for a "rumor becomes truth" kind of deal. It was.
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Apr 19, 2016 19:53
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HEY GAL posted:some english idiot thought of giving longbow archers pikes as well, is that dumb enough for you? That sounds wonderfully stupid. Did anyone scan that text so we could see just how Ye Olde Englishman justified such idiocy?
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Apr 19, 2016 19:55
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golden bubble posted:That sounds wonderfully stupid. Did anyone scan that text so we could see just how Ye Olde Englishman justified such idiocy? I'll guarantee it involves either a petty noble who thinks he's Alexander the Great or a businessman trying to sell something to the army.
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Apr 19, 2016 20:14
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Cyrano4747 posted:I'll guarantee it involves either a petty noble who thinks he's Alexander the Great I guess he really misunderstood what combined arms means 
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Apr 19, 2016 20:29
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Agean90 posted:I guess he really misunderstood what combined arms means Did you see how badass Alexander's pike dudes were? I mean, they conquered the loving world, and as I'm sure Heygal will chime in to remind everyone the pike is the best, most superior weapon ever devised. Now, imagine how much MORE effective Alexander could have been if his pike guys were also superior English longbowmen.
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Apr 19, 2016 20:32
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Zamboni Apocalypse posted:Wikipedia only have the one comparison picture, but I have another that's a B-17, B-47 and the Big Stick IIRC. (No access to imagehosts at work.  I really wish there was a way to correct the spherical distortion from the panorama function because it makes the 36 look tiny relative to how drat huge it actually is. E: here's the tail from two angles, since it's big enough to seem like it's in the foreground -  
FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Apr 19, 2016 |
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Apr 19, 2016 20:52
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100 Years and Five Days (Ish) Ago It's the 14th of April: General Haig is in London. And he's having a very interesting chat with Colonel Swinton about many things to do with the deployment and procurement of tanks. Sadly, both men's memories concerning a few important details are, ahem, not exactly in accord. Someone's telling porkies. More to come on that score. The Russians begin their final march on Trebizond; some French pilots write harrowing and gory stories from the recent close-range air combat over Verdun; Edward Mousley can barely keep his food down; Flora Sandes has a comedy misunderstanding with one of her privates; and Bernard Adams has yet more relevant and pointed observations from the front about the nature of self-censorship. By the way, longtime readers of 100 Years Ago will recall Louis Barthas's long-departed friend Father Galaup and his adventures in No Man's Land, trying to souvenir a saw-toothed bayonet for himself. quote:The abbé Galaup was haunted for some time by the desire to find a German rifle with a sawtoothed bayonet attached, to take home as a souvenir. The Germans had one of these in each squad, in case it was needed to cut a branch, saw up a wooden plank, etc. Of course they would occasionally put it on the end of a rifle, to cut through a thorax or a belly. It served double duty.
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Apr 19, 2016 20:53
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Cyrano4747 posted:I will admit that I cut a piece of pot roast off with the G98 bayo up there just because. I've used my Mosin bayonet and Romanian AK bayonet to open packaging before because they were the only blades close at hand and I was too lazy to walk across the house for scissors. My Mosin itself has only one casualty in my hands: a spider I smashed with the buttplate once. Considering that it's a 1938 made 91/30, it has a decent chance of having some human casualties far in its past.
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Apr 19, 2016 20:57
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Cyrano4747 posted:I'll guarantee it involves either a petty noble who thinks he's Alexander the Great or a businessman trying to sell something to the army. Would his surname bear any resemblance to "sparks" or "sparky" or something?
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Apr 19, 2016 20:58
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I give you: AIRPOWER
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Apr 19, 2016 21:07
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golden bubble posted:That sounds wonderfully stupid. Did anyone scan that text so we could see just how Ye Olde Englishman justified such idiocy? https://books.google.com/books?id=-...d%20man&f=false it's bad Cyrano4747 posted:Did you see how badass Alexander's pike dudes were? I mean, they conquered the loving world, and as I'm sure Heygal will chime in to remind everyone the pike is the best, most superior weapon ever devised.
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Apr 19, 2016 21:13
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Acebuckeye13 posted:I give you: AIRPOWER Nice, I like the Sabre Dog and Delta Dart action. Which airframes are still in use from this picture: B-52 C-130 (insert a letter)C-135
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Apr 19, 2016 21:18
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razak posted:Nice, I like the Sabre Dog and Delta Dart action. NASA still has a couple of B-57s heavily modified to do meteorological poo poo.
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Apr 19, 2016 21:30
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Regarding explosives on sticks. The US Army's MOUT (Military Operations on Urbanised Terrain) manual has a diagram of strapping a Claymore mine on the end of a longish pole. Swing it around a corner, and blast those Warsaw Pact troops with your single use shotgun.
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Apr 19, 2016 21:32
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chitoryu12 posted:I've used my Mosin bayonet and Romanian AK bayonet to open packaging before because they were the only blades close at hand and I was too lazy to walk across the house for scissors. The end of a Mosin bayo is also a really handy flathead screwdriver. I'm pretty certain this is by design, as it is the perfect sized screwdriver for taking out the majority of the screws on the Mosin itself.
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Apr 19, 2016 21:35
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