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Toilet Mouth posted:Finn is good people The first thing we see Finn do is help his fallen buddy. These Stormtroopers are people, conditioned to be killers from birth...but they're still people with personalities. While we don't know for sure, from what we can gather, Finn was always someone who would be willing to help. He does consider it the 'right thing to do'. I mean, he is also told to kill whomever his commander's wish, but he's still a caring person inside. And that fucks with him during the battle of Jakku. The only piece of info we don't know is if that was his first battle, or if he's been a Stormtrooper for a long time. That would help get a better read on that scene, but his character really isn't inconsistent. He cares about his friends, and doesn't want to be a faceless murderer cog.
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Apr 20, 2016 01:01
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Finn says it was his first battle when he is confessing to Rey.
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Apr 20, 2016 01:08
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Ah. I should watch the movie again! As much as I like the scene when they go through the cantina, that whole bit is my least favorite in the film. Rey's vision is cool.
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Apr 20, 2016 01:09
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turtlecrunch posted:Finn says it was his first battle when he is confessing to Rey. Yeah, he somehow got promoted straight from Sanitation to combat duty...that's the one misstep that I don't quite get (unless I'm supposed to be reading "The First Order treats their soldiers so much like faceless automatons that job duties are randomly assigned" or something)
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Apr 20, 2016 01:14
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jivjov posted:Yeah, he somehow got promoted straight from Sanitation to combat duty...that's the one misstep that I don't quite get (unless I'm supposed to be reading "The First Order treats their soldiers so much like faceless automatons that job duties are randomly assigned" or something) Slaughtering villagers who aren't likely to give much organized resistance is a good way to get your feet wet. Just ask Luke, and the surviving members of the Wamprat clan on Tatooine. General Dog fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 01:21
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jivjov posted:Yeah, he somehow got promoted straight from Sanitation to combat duty...that's the one misstep that I don't quite get (unless I'm supposed to be reading "The First Order treats their soldiers so much like faceless automatons that job duties are randomly assigned" or something) That's how the military works?
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Apr 20, 2016 01:38
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bruvs be4 luvs
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You must eventually have your first combat action. Finn's came in subjugating a village of farmers with makeshift weapons.
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Apr 20, 2016 01:42
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They were Force acolytes not farmers. But yeah it rings back to Ep 4 (and also Rey's vision)
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Apr 20, 2016 01:45
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Where is the proof of that?
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Apr 20, 2016 01:48
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jivjov posted:Yeah, he somehow got promoted straight from Sanitation to combat duty...that's the one misstep that I don't quite get (unless I'm supposed to be reading "The First Order treats their soldiers so much like faceless automatons that job duties are randomly assigned" or something) "This was his first offense...that graffiti in the restrooms, that was never proven."
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Apr 20, 2016 02:15
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CelticPredator posted:Where is the proof of that? Of the village being force-worshippers? Novelization and visual dictionary.
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Apr 20, 2016 02:24
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euphronius posted:They were Force acolytes not farmers. But yeah it rings back to Ep 4 (and also Rey's vision) Is that a full time job?
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Apr 20, 2016 02:36
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I didn't laugh when Finn had to drink that water. I felt bad. It wasn't played anywhere near the same as the jar jar scene you mentioned. I think you're bad at watching movies. I think you're great at making up connections in your head.
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Apr 20, 2016 02:37
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CelticPredator posted:The first thing we see Finn do is help his fallen buddy. These Stormtroopers are people, conditioned to be killers from birth...but they're still people with personalities. While we don't know for sure, from what we can gather, Finn was always someone who would be willing to help. He does consider it the 'right thing to do'. he has pretty fun though, hooting and hollering while gunning his old mates down. He jumps ship in a millisecond. Maybe they were 100% all dicks but aren't they human too? Does TFA want to have its cake and eat it, too?
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Apr 20, 2016 02:37
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Wild Horses posted:he has pretty fun though, hooting and hollering while gunning his old mates down. He jumps ship in a millisecond. Maybe they were 100% all dicks but aren't they human too? I think you're mistaking happiness that he's not immediately dying, his expected outcome, for happiness at the deaths of others.
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Apr 20, 2016 02:38
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Star Wars has always had a pragmatic approach to war anyways; if you're a hostile enemy then you're a fair target, and if you're unarmed or disarmed or otherwise helpless then it's bad to kill you. In this sense it makes total sense that Finn would woop about not-dying instead of pouring a neon blue 40 for his fallen ex-comrades.
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Apr 20, 2016 03:15
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Finn entered both "you have a boyfriend?" and "Droid, please" into the star wars canon so he is by default the best character.
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Apr 20, 2016 03:59
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jivjov posted:Of the village being force-worshippers? Novelization and visual dictionary. Well, they should've made that clear in the film if it was important.
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Apr 20, 2016 04:33
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Captain Oblivious posted:I think you're mistaking happiness that he's not immediately dying, his expected outcome, for happiness at the deaths of others. But he never expresses any ambivalent feelings about having to kill his former brainwashed comrades at any point during the film. It's simply not an issue that's raised, nor is it an issue the film is remotely interested in addressing. The film doesn't want you to have to think about difficult questions like that.
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Apr 20, 2016 04:33
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Cnut the Great posted:But he never expresses any ambivalent feelings about having to kill his former brainwashed comrades at any point during the film. It's simply not an issue that's raised, nor is it an issue the film is remotely interested in addressing. The film doesn't want you to have to think about difficult questions like that. God drat it SMG how many times do people have to tell you that you don't get to offer subjective feelings about what a movie is or isn't saying/addressing as objective fact?
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Apr 20, 2016 04:41
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Neurolimal posted:Star Wars has always had a pragmatic approach to war anyways; if you're a hostile enemy then you're a fair target, and if you're unarmed or disarmed or otherwise helpless then it's bad to kill you. Except the core idea behind Finn's character is that he's a traitorous stormtrooper. It's one of the few original concepts the film brings to the table. The people he's killing are his former comrades-in-arms. It's a much more complicated situation than the one characters in previous movies have been in when it comes to the ethics of killing in war. If the film didn't want to deal with these issues, why even make him a traitorous stormtrooper in the first place? It's another example of the writers taking shortcuts: They gave Finn a backstory that suggests the possibility of depth, but then they neglected to actually provide any, papering over the omission by substituting a bunch of fast-paced quips and a whole lot of exuberant whooping and hollering. Abrams can come up with a premise, but he can't expand on that premise. He can introduce a mystery, but he can't come up with a satisfying solution to that mystery. Mortanis posted:God drat it SMG how many times do people have to tell you that you don't get to offer subjective feelings about what a movie is or isn't saying/addressing as objective fact? What a weird post. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 04:48
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Mortanis posted:God drat it SMG how many times do people have to tell you that you don't get to offer subjective feelings about what a movie is or isn't saying/addressing as objective fact? The film does not address Finn's feelings about fighting his former comrades. Not saying that's necessarily a shortcoming, but it is an objectively true statement.
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Apr 20, 2016 04:49
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Mortanis posted:God drat it SMG how many times do people have to tell you that you don't get to offer subjective feelings about what a movie is or isn't saying/addressing as objective fact? Cnut ain't no SMG. Perhaps if you actually read the posts and understood them, you would know this.
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Apr 20, 2016 05:15
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Toilet Mouth posted:The film does not address Finn's feelings about fighting his former comrades. Not saying that's necessarily a shortcoming, but it is an objectively true statement. Yeah, it talks about their reaction to him, but Finn's fighting in self defense the whole time.
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Apr 20, 2016 05:15
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What's the difference between people who don't like the PT because its not what they wanted, and Cnut's problem with Finn because his story wasn't about what Cnut wanted? Personally sure, they could have had more sympathetic beats before he abandoned them entirely, but I also understand why they wouldn't do this both for time constraints (even with a brisk pace the film still has difficulty juggling all the imagery and themes it presents) and because First Order (at least in this episode) must be objectively wrong to match the statements presented (primarily that they represent an unhealthy attachment to the past, to the prior generation, and to the former elite of society). They COULD have told a story of how FO ended up in this situation, Finn's difficulty with his situation as a defector, and the human elements within the order. They didn't NEED to tell this story, and they haven't closed off any opportunities for it to be presented in future episodes (especially considering what Episode 8 will have to address). Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 06:25
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I'm apathetic on the prequels, but I will absolutely watch them if I run across them on TV, which is almost never. Because hey, it's Star Wars.
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Apr 20, 2016 06:32
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Dunno if I'm missing anything but there was that bit where Finns comrades rounded up and gunned down an entire village? Kind of an important turning point on how Finn views the First Order and their storm trooper pawns. Like sure it would be cool to see more about how Finn thinks things are going and what it's like not to be a brainwashed soldier anymore. but this movie already has so much going on to the point where they literally destroy 'the Republic' which we don't really see or hear much about before it gets blown up. Time constraints, etc etc Only just saw this movie and it owns bones, I liked it a lot on many levels
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Apr 20, 2016 07:55
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Frankly posted:
That's my problem, though. I would've actually liked TFA more if they cut out most of Bigger, Badder Death Star scenes. The spaceship battle was, imho, the most forgettable in the entire series. TFA's strengths lie in character interactions. You don't have to introduce impossibly high stakes to make your heroes' adventures exciting.
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Apr 20, 2016 08:10
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FN exemplifies a major issue that I've noted: Force Awakens does not function as a science fiction/fantasy film. The basic premise behind the FN character is that he is inherently-good, but put under a 'magic spell' - depicted onscreen as this blue holographic-interface computer system thing. That's why, when the 'spell' is broken, he immediately transforms into a 'good person' whose only flaw is self-doubt. (FN considers himself to be a coward 'deep inside', even though he does absolutely nothing cowardly in the film until forced to by Maz.) But, in all the pages written about TFA, not even a single person has approached it as science fiction. And has anyone ever referred to Kylo or Snoke as 'wizards' or 'sorcerers'? Of course not. FN may be fuckable, but people actively ignore Force Awakens' thesis that people are automatically good unless 'corrupted' in some way. And in this exact sense, TFA defines 'balancing the Force' as eliminating bad people to restore a state of Nature. As a contrast, you have They Live - and the thesis there is extremely different. They Live says breaking free of ideology takes incredible effort. The glasses that let you see the ideological messages hurt. "According to our common sense we think that ideology is something blurring, confusing our straight view. Ideology should be glasses which distort our view, and the critique of ideology should be the opposite - like, you take off the glasses so that you can finally see the way things really are. This precisely, and here the pessimism of the film, of They Live is well justified, this precisely is the ultimate illusion: ideology is not simply imposed on ourselves. Ideology is our spontaneous relationship to our social world - how we perceive each meaning and so on and so on. We in a way enjoy our ideology. To step out of ideology - it hurts. It's a painful experience. You must force yourself to do it." -Zizek, my italics. What we see in TFA is merely FN's shift from one ideology to another, in a rather cynical way. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 08:21
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Jesus Christ please stop saying fuckable. You're like a child with a new toy.
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Apr 20, 2016 08:25
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PiedPiper posted:That's my problem, though. I would've actually liked TFA more if they cut out most of Bigger, Badder Death Star scenes. The spaceship battle was, imho, the most forgettable in the entire series. Right, that makes sense now thanks. TFA's character stuff is really good and I would be pretty happy with more of that if they could keep up the general pace of the movie.
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Apr 20, 2016 08:40
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Tfa is science fiction/fantasy. It has magic, laser swords, and fantastical creatures. Pretty cool ones too 
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Apr 20, 2016 08:53
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Jerkface posted:Tfa is science fiction/fantasy. It has magic, laser swords, and fantastical creatures. Consider, for example, Beowulf. What does TFA express about fantastical creatures that Beowulf does not.
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Apr 20, 2016 08:57
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Neurolimal posted:What's the difference between people who don't like the PT because its not what they wanted, and Cnut's problem with Finn because his story wasn't about what Cnut wanted? The non-existent story that Cnut discusses is one that many people in this thread seem to think is contained in the film.
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Apr 20, 2016 09:04
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Consider that you used the term magic spell in your weird attempt to frame tfa as non science fiction fantasy. Tfa also has princesses, drat another fantasy staple. gently caress !!
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Apr 20, 2016 09:07
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I'm writing a read-through of a very bad fantasy novel, and have come to the conclusion that the worst fantasy simply exists to show off the trappings of the genre, and nothing more. That is to say, there's an idea that having swords and magic is enough to make a story fantastical. You can just look at the entire genre of D&D fiction. It's all really boring despite the outlandish settings and concepts, because these trappings are not used to tell an interesting story. TFA seems to suffer from the same problem, in that it exists to feature Star Wars props. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 09:41 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 09:26
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Jerkface posted:Consider that you used the term magic spell in your weird attempt to frame tfa as non science fiction fantasy. Read. I wrote that the film does not function as fantasy because people actively ignore its (extremely few) fantasy elements. The sci-fi is, likewise, limited to there being a robot in a few scenes. And there's shot where someone uses a computer.
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Apr 20, 2016 09:28
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I'm writing a read-through of a very bad fantasy novel This is why people don't respect you opinion.
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Apr 20, 2016 11:00
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Y Kant Ozma Diet posted:This is why people don't respect you opinion. I'm flattered that you find it important to imitate me. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 11:19 on Apr 20, 2016 |
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Apr 20, 2016 11:06
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rear end Catchcum posted:Jesus Christ please stop saying fuckable. You're like a child with a new toy. WHAT TOYS ARE YOU GIVING TO YOUR CHILDREN 
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Apr 20, 2016 11:12
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