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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Read this sentence aloud to yourself. I am not pro-business, however the citizens of a republic should still be represented even if they own a business. Mormons are the majority of Utah, they get a pro-mormon representive. The majority of the federations' planets are pro-federation, they get a pro-federation representive.
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Apr 23, 2016 21:56
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Yaws posted:Who is your favorite irl dictator? The proletariat.
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Apr 23, 2016 21:57
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The Seperatist Alliance is made up of "thousands of solar systems," and the Republic itself is even larger. Those must be the Evil systems then. Why are you attaching real-world logic to these films? The Separatists are Evil and saying "Well no they can't ALL be evil" is you bringing your outside deconstruction to the films. Enjoy that if saying HaHa This Dumb poo poo Doesnt Make Sense makes you feel smart, but it was never the intention.
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Apr 23, 2016 21:58
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Neurolimal posted:I am not pro-business, however the citizens of a republic should still be represented even if they own a business. Mormons are the majority of Utah, they get a pro-mormon representive. The majority of the federations' planets are pro-federation, they get a pro-federation representive. The Trade Federation are not simply "pro-business", they are a corporation. It'd be like if Disney was a representative in Congress.
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Apr 23, 2016 21:59
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Cnut the Great posted:The situation was rectified by Amidala going off on her own and forming an alliance with the Gungans to take back her planet by force. The Republic didn't do anything except manage to succeed by pure luck, in spite of its own sluggishness and incompetence. Thats the thing though; the rules were followed when agents of the republic were sent to investigate and resolve the matter. The negotiators returned and said "we, the unbiased negotiators of the republic, were attacked unprovoked". Valorum was stalling the next logical action. In the real world we have trials, but thats not the case in the Space Opera Star Wars. Valorum is better than Palpatine, but he made a critical mistake with his timidity.
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Apr 23, 2016 21:59
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Neurolimal posted:I am not pro-business, however the citizens of a republic should still be represented even if they own a business. Mormons are the majority of Utah, they get a pro-mormon representive. The majority of the federations' planets are pro-federation, they get a pro-federation representive. Do you think Wal-Mart Stores Inc should have a seat in the US House of Representatives? Do you think Lehman Brothers should have a seat in the US House of Representatives?
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Apr 23, 2016 22:00
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Cnut the Great posted:The situation was rectified by Amidala going off on her own and forming an alliance with the Gungans to take back her planet by force. The Republic didn't do anything except manage to succeed by pure luck, in spite of its own sluggishness and incompetence. Actually this happened because the creator is an idiot
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Apr 23, 2016 22:01
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cargohills posted:The Trade Federation are not simply "pro-business", they are a corporation. It'd be like if Disney was a representative in Congress. Does Disney populate an entire state?
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Apr 23, 2016 22:01
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Yaws posted:The Republic is still a Liberal Democracy. Obviously they're preferable to the Empire. You're not supposed to look at them as the bad guys. They got duped. Nobody is saying the Republic and the Jedi are the bad guys, but they do in fact fail the galaxy, and it is largely their fault. When Yoda runs away, he says, "failed, I have", not "a victim of circumstance, I am".
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Apr 23, 2016 22:01
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Do you think Wal-Mart Stores Inc should have a seat in the US House of Representatives? Do either populate an entire state? As far as I am aware there are Federation planets. There is no Disney state.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:02
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Toilet Mouth posted:Nobody is saying the Republic and the Jedi are the bad guys, but they do in fact fail the galaxy, and it is largely their fault. Failed at detecting obvious poo poo right in front of his face, failed to defeat Palpatine in a sword fight after he gave up
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Apr 23, 2016 22:03
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The Republic is not looking to go start a war, come on now.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:04
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Tezzor posted:Those must be the Evil systems then. Why are you attaching real-world logic to these films? The Separatists are Evil and saying "Well no they can't ALL be evil" is you bringing your outside deconstruction to the films. Enjoy that if it makes you feel smart, but it was never the intention. So you are saying that the Republic is a utopia except for the trillions of evil people in the Republic. You are making a very odd display of claiming every obvious flaw in the Republic 'doesn't count' for arbitrary reasons. Like, the Republic makes a seamless transition into being a fascist dictatorship? Well that doesn't count as a flaw, for some reason.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:06
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Neurolimal posted:Do either populate an entire state? As far as I am aware there are Federation planets. There is no Disney state. You are once again losing sight of your argument. You are now saying that corporation should have a seat of government if it would own a state. You are also saying that there's nothing odd about a corporation owning planets. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Apr 23, 2016 |
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Apr 23, 2016 22:06
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"Failed, have I. " "At what?" "At convincing the other Jedi to not train Anakin despite the fact that we all sensed grave danger and we did it anyway for no reason" "Oh. Yeah. And why did you give him to green as goose poo poo Obi-Wan instead of Mace or Conehead Man" "A total fuckwit, am I"
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Apr 23, 2016 22:06
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Tezzor posted:Failed at detecting obvious poo poo right in front of his face, failed to defeat Palpatine in a sword fight after he gave up That is correct. See also Episode II, "Blind are we, if creation of this clone army we could not see." Yoda: "We've really hosed this up" Tezzor: "Lucas accidentally made the Jedi look like fuckups"
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Apr 23, 2016 22:06
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The proletariat. I think he meant historically, butthole Tezzor posted:It's not a deflection. I've stated repeatedly: you're free to interpret these films as morally complex films which critique the presuppositions of whatever, I can't stop you and don't really care. Doing so, however, is like interpreting Plan 9 From Outer Space as a comedy. You might find it really funny, but that was never the intention, and came out that way because of the incompetence of the creator. Do you think it is possible to understand a work of art if the creator of that work of art never explicates on her intentions, or is dead and any such explication is lost? Or rather, since you say we're free to interpret contrary to such explication, do you reckon those understandings are inferior? Neurolimal posted:Does Disney populate an entire state? Walmart has a lot of employees, yeah. You're saying it would be fine if their lobbyists got a salary and a vote on whether to bomb Syria and raise taxes on earned wages. It's not an insane perspective, but it's an evil one.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:07
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Tezzor posted:It's not a deflection. I've stated repeatedly: you're free to interpret these films as morally complex films which critique the presuppositions of whatever, I can't stop you and don't really care. Doing so, however, is like interpreting Plan 9 From Outer Space as a comedy. You might find it really funny, but that was never the intention, and came out that way because of the incompetence of the creator. Would you say the text is asking you these questions? or rather, should you be asking yourself these question when reading the text? Just ignore the evil wizard's intent and watch(read) the movies. The importance of the negative space created from your answers shouldn't be ignored, this is your reading of those questions posed by the movies.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:08
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:So you are saying that the Republic is a utopia except for the trillions of evil people in the Republic. I'm not claiming any of that. I'm claiming that your ethical quandries don't make the films good because not only are they not intentional they are actually contrary to the intent, and basically we are both agreeing that the characters and institutions in the films are idiotic and terrible and the only difference is that I understand from the totality of the available evidence that this is the result of the author's incompetence.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:09
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Yoda: "Clear your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot." *Dooku plainly tells Obi-Wan who is behind the plot, Obi-Wan relays the information to Yoda* Yoda: "Joined the Dark Side Dooku has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now."
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Apr 23, 2016 22:10
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Toilet Mouth posted:That is correct. See also Episode II, "Blind are we, if creation of this clone army we could not see." Their blindness is not actually their fault because the Dark Side is blinding them for reasons irrespective of their actions, which the officially licensed books describe as Palpatine using the RPG bideogame power of Dark Side Clouding
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Apr 23, 2016 22:11
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You are once again losing sight of your argument. Whats the alternative when accepting a corporate-favoring planet? Go "gotcha!" And refuse them representation because they are icky?
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Apr 23, 2016 22:11
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DeimosRising posted:
Thats not an answer: is there a state populated entirely by pro-walmart members of wal-mart? If there were, dure, give them a representative. Theres other representatives to vote against them. If theres enough groups to hold enough representatives to have a majority, then a majority of the country exists favoring those groups.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:15
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Yaws posted:The Republic is still a Liberal Democracy. Obviously they're preferable to the Empire. You're not supposed to look at them as the bad guys. They got duped. I agree. SMG and others obviously disagree with me about that, but what we don't disagree about, I think, is the underlying facts of the social and political situation depicted in the prequels, because they are really not all that obscure or hard to decipher. There is no possible legitimate reading of the prequels that doesn't acknowledge that the Republic is dysfunctional. In these films, the Republic essentially attacks and kills itself. Obviously, whether you're for or against liberal democracy, you should be able to acknowledge that self-destruction is clear evidence of structural failure. It is significant that Palpatine never, at any point, forces anyone to do anything. The fact that he engages in manipulation and deception is irrelevant, because even so, there are real choices presented to the characters at every step along the road to Empire, and they always choose the quick and easy path instead of the difficult but morally correct one. Palpatine muddies the waters by stoking mistrust and offering temptations, but he doesn't take away anyone's moral agency. Just because Satan is the great deceiver doesn't mean you get to abdicate all moral responsibility for the choices you make. Anyone claiming that Palpatine's role as the villainous master manipulator of the prequels undermines its message of moral responsibility would fail out of Sunday school on the first day.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:15
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Tezzor posted:Their blindness is not actually their fault because the Dark Side is blinding them for reasons irrespective of their actions, which the officially licensed books describe as Palpatine using the RPG bideogame power of Dark Side Clouding *Plinkett voice* Don't try to tell me it's in the novelization unless you don't want a pizza roll
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Apr 23, 2016 22:16
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Neurolimal posted:Whats the alternative when accepting a corporate-favoring planet? Go "gotcha!" And refuse them representation because they are icky? Yes. That is the ethically correct choice. Even better is to divest the corporation of those planets, because profit-seeking entities should not have control over states. The Republic, on the other hand, gives a corporation seats in the Senate. The representatives explicitly represent the corporation itself.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:16
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Yes. That is the ethically correct choice. Even better is to divest the corporation of those planets, because profit-seeking entities should not have control over states. So they should lie to that planet, and wrest control of their planet from them?
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Apr 23, 2016 22:17
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Tezzor posted:I'm not claiming any of that. I'm claiming that your ethical quandries don't make the films good because not only are they not intentional they are actually contrary to the intent, and basically we are both agreeing that the characters and institutions in the films are idiotic and terrible and the only difference is that I understand from the totality of the available evidence that this is the result of the author's incompetence. Actually, you have a pathological fixation on a 70-year-old man who lives in Modesto. This is causing you to have trouble distinguishing truth from falsity.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:18
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brawleh posted:Would you say the text is asking you these questions? or rather, should you be asking yourself these question when reading the text? Just ignore the evil wizard's intent and watch(read) the movies. The importance of the negative space created from your answers shouldn't be ignored, this is your reading of those questions posed by the movies. Again: you're just saying in a different way that the characters and institutions in the movie are lovely and stupid. Intent actually matters here. If the author intended these things to be lovely and stupid as a smart deconstruction of whatever, that's one thing. If he tried to make these institutions and characters smart and noble and failed due to incompetence, that's quite another. All the available evidence indicates the second is what actually occurred.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:18
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Neurolimal posted:So they should lie to that planet, and wrest control of their planet from them? Again, you've lost sight of your argument. Why do you assume the Trade Federation was ever a fair and democratic institution? You're still arguing that corporations should have seats in government.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:21
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Tezzor posted:Intent actually matters here. If the author intended these things to be lovely and stupid as a smart deconstruction of whatever, that's one thing. If he tried to make these institutions and characters smart and noble and failed due to incompetence, that's quite another. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOyTnau6Tc
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Apr 23, 2016 22:21
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Actually, you have a pathological fixation on a 70-year-old man who lives in Modesto. This is causing you to have trouble distinguishing truth from falsity. , he said, willfully ignoring the only actual facts that have been posted in this thread in 100s of pages
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Apr 23, 2016 22:25
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Neurolimal posted:Thats not an answer: is there a state populated entirely by pro-walmart members of wal-mart? No I meant evil when I said it: democracy is not self justifying. Would you (and do you, since it has happened repeatedly) defend democratically enacted ethnic cleansing? It is wrong to make corporations part of government. It is wrong to make profit the goal of social policy. Doing these things is a sign of social disease, both in our real world and in the metaphorical world of Star Wars.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:26
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- "Corporations should not have seats in government." - "Nuh-uh!" - "Corporations should not own governments." - "Nuh-uh!" I'm expecting for this to happen: - "The Trade Federation isn't a fair and democratic institution." - "Nuh-uh!"
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Apr 23, 2016 22:27
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Raxivace posted:When you think about it, a lot of TFA makes more sense if Snoke is actually a reborn Aunt Beru. Actually he's an Ewok whose camp was destroyed by Death Star II shrapnel, his fur lost in the fire and brimstone. He was guarding Vader's "skull" when Kylo came looking for it.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:32
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Cnut the Great posted:I agree. SMG and others obviously disagree with me about that, but what we don't disagree about, I think, is the underlying facts of the social and political situation depicted in the prequels, because they are really not all that obscure or hard to decipher. Perhaps all these bitches hatin' on the Republic are libertarians.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:33
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if george lucas is not lying and he had this All Planned Out for all these years and stormtroopers were always clones why does Boba Fett never use his identicalness. like he's gotta infiltrate the death star to get han solo and theres a bunch of stormtroopers in the way of a door he needs to get to, oh no!! so he takes off his armor and walks through going hey identical brother dudes. i sure hate jedi and have no other characterization
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Apr 23, 2016 22:35
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Yaws posted:Perhaps all these bitches hatin' on the Republic are libertarians. I doubt that libertarians would be particularly against a government that gave corporations a lot of control. E: stormtroopers aren't clones.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:43
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Tezzor posted:Again: you're just saying in a different way that the characters and institutions in the movie are lovely and stupid. Intent actually matters here. If the author intended these things to be lovely and stupid as a smart deconstruction of whatever, that's one thing. If he tried to make these institutions and characters smart and noble and failed due to incompetence, that's quite another. All the available evidence indicates the second is what actually occurred. It's important to recognize that i'm not actually asking these questions, it's the movies themselves. I'm just posing the questions from the movies and you're answering them, in good faith. I just want you to explore those questions posed by the movies while not decieving yourself over an evil wizards intentions. Also your initial answers had a good read, but you've decied to no longer pursue the truth of your own feelings. Instead you've hit a road block in the form of an evil wizard's intent, who you believe is trying to deceive all of us at best and a bumbling idiot at worst. Try and move past it and grapple with the further questions posed. Tezzor posted:4. It says they are willing to use a clone army that the evil wizard made without their consent or knowledge when there is an impending war This is solid observation and you should follow through on this line of thought. brawleh fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Apr 23, 2016 |
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Apr 23, 2016 22:44
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Tezzor posted:"Failed, have I. " No. Yoda fails to defeat Sidious for the exact same reason Luke fails to defeat Vader in Empire: The Making of Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back posted:“In the fight, Vader is using the dark side of the Force and he’s really tricking Luke. It limits Luke’s ability to throw things around or use lightning bolts. If he wants to be aggressive, he has to use the dark side. So in the beginning of this fight, Luke will be shielding himself against Vader, but he’ll finally get mad enough to where he starts to pick things up and throw them at Vader, which gives him the upper hand. But even as Luke gets the upper hand, Vader knows that he’s winning because he’s getting Luke to use the dark side of the Force. The audience would also know—it’s a physical way of manifesting the idea that the more lightning bolts he shoots at Vader, the more he’s succumbing to the dark side of the Force. The more he’s winning, the more he’s losing. It will also make a more exciting fight. You’ll be rooting for Luke, because he’ll be so outmatched, and the only way he can survive is to use the dark side." This is Lucas describing his original conception of the duel between Luke and Vader on Cloud City. Sound familiar? "The more he's winning, the more he's losing." Yoda "gave up" for a reason. Fighting Sidious was forcing him to become Sidious:     That was Yoda's failure. At the end, he realizes this:      In fighting Sidious, he's literally lost hold of what it means to be a Jedi. He realizes this while gazing upon his forsaken Jedi cloak fluttering down onto a metal pole and waving like a flag of surrender, urging Yoda toward peaceful capitulation. I'm posting this for the benefit of other people reading this thread, of course, since I know none of this could ever possibly penetrate through your thick skull despite being totally and immediately comprehensible to any halfway intelligent child viewer. I think the reason you're so reluctant to admit I'm right about this is because then you would have to contend with the fact that the Star Wars prequels really were just too smart for you. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Apr 23, 2016 |
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Apr 23, 2016 22:46
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