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Here's another contradiction: picture the kind of person who is always bringing up "common sense".
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Apr 24, 2016 01:43
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Danger posted:What I appreciate about Tezzor's reading of the prequels is that they seem to affix the character of 'George Lucas' within his tracing of the film. It's all very post-structural. the Galactic Senate would have been a successful government : if it weren't for the corrupting influence of bad people, such as Sheev :: the Star Wars prequels would have been good movies : if it weren't for the corrupting intentions of dumb people, such as George Lucas
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Apr 24, 2016 01:47
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Tezzor posted:You know for a dude who pretends to comprehend dialectics you sure don't seem to know what a contradiction is. Hey Tezzor you claim that this film as intended regularly violates logic and common sense. But check it: the intention that the separatists were pure evil violates logic and common sense owwwwned You are going mad again. I wrote that the Seperatists in the movie are not all evil. So did George Lucas: "There are heroes on both sides."
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Apr 24, 2016 01:54
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SHISHKABOB posted:Because the federation has a seat in the senate, they were freely and democratically elected to that position. We are to presume every other member represents a planet/race, why should we immediately assume otherwise for the federation?
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Apr 24, 2016 02:02
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Neurolimal posted:We are to presume every other member represents a planet/race, why should we immediately assume otherwise for the federation? Why are you being a dense loving idiot about this?
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Apr 24, 2016 02:04
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Again, you've lost track of any relevant argumentation. This is a pattern with you. didn't you argue during the TFA bickering that only the film itself matters, not any deleted scenes or revised scripts? Anyways, what you quoted merely implies that Valorum does not recognize his position [at this time], and that Lott Dodd is a [senator] for the federation. There is still little to believe the senator for this alien race is any less democratically elected than anyone else in the [galactic] senate. quote:The answer is yes. The Republic is dysfunctional. Corporations blockading sovereign peoples is legal under Republic law: Illegal yet frowned upon, so the republic sent negotiators to settle the blockade. This doesn't imply that the republic is fine with blockading republic planets. And it doesn't imply corruption when the head of the senate is deposed of after the senate passes a vote of no confidence against his stalling. Padme did not pass that vote by herself. quote:I don't know why you struggle with basic plot information and political ethics. Says the person arguing in favor of disenfranchisement and manipulation.
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Apr 24, 2016 02:13
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what is anime toliet slaves?
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Apr 24, 2016 02:13
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SHISHKABOB posted:Why are you being a dense loving idiot about this? That doesn't answer the question
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Apr 24, 2016 02:14
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I was reading the old SW thread and it's funny how many people have changed their tune on the prequels. the prequel debate has been going on for almost 4 years now. It will never end.
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Apr 24, 2016 02:18
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Neurolimal posted:We are to presume every other member represents a planet/race, why should we immediately assume otherwise for the federation? The character Supreme Chancellor Valorum identifies the Senator from the Trade Federation as the Senator from the Trade Federation.
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Apr 24, 2016 02:20
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Schwarzwald posted:The character Supreme Chancellor Valorum identifies the Senator from the Trade Federation as the Senator from the Trade Federation. Is it impossible for the Trade Federation to be composed of that race's planets, ala a corporate version of a United Nations of Earth? Do we see that race in other senate seats?
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Apr 24, 2016 02:28
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Neurolimal posted:Says the person arguing in favor of disenfranchisement and manipulation. Disenfranchisement and manipulation is what the Trade Federation attempted when they tried to coerce the democratically elected leader of Naboo into handing her government and her constituents to the Trade Federation. Opposing the Trade Federation's attempts to coerce democracies is not disenfranchising. Denying the vote to compromised governments is not disenfranchising. What is disenfranchising is granting a nondemocratic entity, such as the Trade Federation, a seat on a supposedly democratic senate.
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Apr 24, 2016 02:28
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Schwarzwald posted:Disenfranchisement and manipulation is what the Trade Federation attempted when they tried to coerce the democratically elected leader of Naboo into handing her government and her constituents to the Trade Federation. Denying them after the blockade is fine. I'm arguing that the existance of a representative from the Federation is not itself an example of corruption.
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Apr 24, 2016 02:30
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You are going mad again. I wrote that the Seperatists in the movie are not all evil. they are all evil from everything we see. you bring the common sense that surely all those trillions of people can't be evil into it, but we do not see this. the title crawl may tell and not show us that they are not all evil, but that's such laughable contradictory bullshit that not even his contemporary anime toilet slave Rick McCallum bought it
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Apr 24, 2016 02:33
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I always saw the Senate scenes as more of a comment on the inherent flaws of bureaucracy than actual corruption. Sure, they could probably take away the Trade Federation's vote but all kinds of procedural things would have to be done, motions and votes, etc. , and by the time it happened the whole crisis would be over anyway. That's what happens with the blockade, the Senate decides it will need to take time to investigate the situation but practically there just isn't any time to do that. They're willing to potentially let people starve to death as long as the proper procedures are followed.
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Apr 24, 2016 02:40
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Neurolimal posted:Denying them after the blockade is fine. I'm arguing that the existance of a representative from the Federation is not itself an example of corruption. A corporation cannot be democratic. The closest equivalent to this is something called a syndicate, and it is not compatible with terms like "trade federation" or with placing blockades on those who refuse to engage in "free trade". The "Senator from the Trade Federation" is a reference to the old joke "the Senator from Wall Street" or "the Senator from Boeing" etc. which has been used to imply intense corruption and corporate capture for decades. In the Star Wars Republic, there is literally a Senator from Wall Street, which is super mega bad, and if you do not think so then I find your moral philosophy not only lacking but repugnant.
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Apr 24, 2016 02:43
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someone photoshop this great and consistently held point with mace windu head and palpy's monster face
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Apr 24, 2016 02:45
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Here's another contradiction: picture the kind of person who is always bringing up "common sense". .... Thomas Paine? Was it Thomas Paine?
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Apr 24, 2016 02:47
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Side note, how hosed is your planet if a trade blockade is enough to start killing off your population? You have the resources of an entire world at your disposal and you can't properly feed/medicate/fix whatever the problem that was killing the humans on Naboo was?
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Apr 24, 2016 02:48
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Basebf555 posted:I always saw the Senate scenes as more of a comment on the inherent flaws of bureaucracy than actual corruption. Sure, they could probably take away the Trade Federation's vote but all kinds of procedural things would have to be done, motions and votes, etc. , and by the time it happened the whole crisis would be over anyway. That's what happens with the blockade, the Senate decides it will need to take time to investigate the situation but practically there just isn't any time to do that. They're willing to potentially let people starve to death as long as the proper procedures are followed. The central political problem with the prequels is not bureaucracy but a rejection of bureaucracy. They keep voting Palpy more power so he can get around procedures and Get Ir Dun
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Apr 24, 2016 02:49
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DeimosRising posted:A corporation cannot be democratic. The closest equivalent to this is something called a syndicate, and it is not compatible with terms like "trade federation" or with placing blockades on those who refuse to engage in "free trade". The "Senator from the Trade Federation" is a reference to the old joke "the Senator from Wall Street" or "the Senator from Boeing" etc. which has been used to imply intense corruption and corporate capture for decades. In the Star Wars Republic, there is literally a Senator from Wall Street, which is super mega bad, and if you do not think so then I find your moral philosophy not only lacking but repugnant. So, a corporate-controlled race should not be in the senate (in your opinion). That doesn't explain why that race's representative proves that the senate is corrupt, it just proves that race has a lovely government. (I recognize the joke, but thats usually utilized to reference the overwhelming influence corporations hold. We never see this in the film; when they attempt to blockade a fellow ally they are sent negotiators to give them a civil way to stop doing it, then when it actually comes to senate action they are outvoted in deposing Valorum and acting against Gunray's aggression. Their strength as a federation is proven in the trilogy, but we never see that strength enter the senate's politics.)
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Apr 24, 2016 02:53
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Neurolimal posted:Is it impossible for the Trade Federation to be composed of that race's planets, ala a corporate version of a United Nations of Earth? Do we see that race in other senate seats? The character Supreme Chancellor Valorum identifies the character Senator Palapatine when he states, "The Chair recognizes the Senator from the sovereign system of Naboo." Valorum specifically calls attention to the fact that Naboo is a "sovereign system." However, he very pointedly does not refer to the Senator from the Trade Federation as sovereign. Presumably, this is because the Trade Federation are not sovereign. As such, the Trade Federation do not represent a planet or a race, rather they represent a federation. (Furthermore, the Trade Federation refer to themselves as a federation.) Now, I will grant you that there are alternative ways to read this. It's possible that Valorum purposely omitted to mention that the Trade Federation are sovereign, perhaps out of spite. I do not think this is likely, both because Valorum seems to maintain proper decorum throughout the proceedings, and because Senator Palapatine, the Sith Lord himself, speaks credit to Valorum's integrity. We can trust Sheev. The other reading is that Valorum simply forgot that the Trade Federation were sovereign, perhaps because he's an idiot. But Tezzor can explain much better than I can. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 02:53
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Neurolimal posted:Denying them after the blockade is fine. I'm arguing that the existance of a representative from the Federation is not itself an example of corruption. Corporations are undemocratic. Giving a senate seat to a corporation, putting them on the same level as sovereign democracies, is likewise undemocratic and furthermore corrupt.
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Apr 24, 2016 02:59
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I'd read it as a jab at their lack of participation in the senate outside of affairs regarding them; it stands to reason that a corporate-controlled race would choose to shirk alliance duties that don't affect them. Effectively the Sergio Osmena of the galactic senate.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:00
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Schwarzwald posted:Corporations are undemocratic. Giving a senate seat to a corporation, putting them on the same level as sovereign democracies, is likewise undemocratic and furthermore corrupt. Should the citizens of the Federation not be allowed representation? Would this be more or less corrupt? More or less democratic?
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Apr 24, 2016 03:01
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Schwarzwald posted:Corporations are undemocratic. Giving a senate seat to a corporation, putting them on the same level as sovereign democracies, is likewise undemocratic and furthermore corrupt. This is why the UN doesn't allow monarchies to be represented I guess
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Apr 24, 2016 03:09
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Bob Quixote posted:Side note, how hosed is your planet if a trade blockade is enough to start killing off your population? They weren't merely blockaded for very long - the invasion is what led to that kind of trouble as the population were moved into camps and presumably most farming and industry ceased. I don't remember any dialogue from before the invasion about the people of Naboo dying. I'm willing to be corrected, of course.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:15
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You guys know that "corrupt" is a word that means a thing beyond "something an anarchist teen would get mad at," right? Like if there was a scene where Valorum was getting paid off by the space ching chongs that would be an example of corruption. A government being imperfect and using occasionally using force is not the same as corruption.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:18
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Neurolimal posted:Should the citizens of the Federation not be allowed representation? Would this be more or less corrupt? More or less democratic? What the Federation does have are slaves. Slaves are inherently disenfranchised, and the keeping of slaves is inherently undemocratic. Because they are not a sovereign state, the Trade Federation having a seat on the galactic senate is corrupt. Because they are not a democracy, the Trade Federation having a seat on the galactic senate is undemocratic.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:20
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Tezzor posted:This is why the UN doesn't allow monarchies to be represented I guess The UN is not a senate. The UN is also not a democracy.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:21
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Tezzor what are your favorite movies
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Apr 24, 2016 03:22
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Schwarzwald posted:The Trade Federation does not have citizens, by virtue of not being sovereign. Furthermore, even if they did have citizens, they would not have representation by virtue of being a federation, which is not a form of government that gives it's citizens representation. The republic also has slaves. Do you not remember the pivotal character of Dexter Jettster, Bigoted Slavemaster of the Galactic 50's? It's more representation than not giving them a representative. And I doubt the senate goes through the trouble of cleansing the local government of every member's planets.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:22
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Schwarzwald posted:The Trade Federation does not have citizens, by virtue of not being sovereign. Furthermore, even if they did have citizens, they would not have representation by virtue of being a federation, which is not a form of government that gives it's citizens representation. Battle droids are not slaves. They are evil technology, goofy and worthless, inherently distinct from the good ones, and not important. Your prophet actually said these things
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Apr 24, 2016 03:23
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Schwarzwald posted:The UN is not a senate. The UN is a democracy and the other distinction is a semantic quibble. Rome had a Senate and actual, non-cartoon character slaves - as did the US, at one point
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Apr 24, 2016 03:26
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Tezzor posted:Battle droids are not slaves. They are evil technology, goofy and worthless, inherently distinct from the good ones, and not important. Your prophet actually said these things Technology used to create a slave army is evil technology. There's not even a contradiction here.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:26
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Ferrinus posted:Technology used to create a slave army is evil technology. There's not even a contradiction here. The battle droids themselves are evil technology.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:28
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Neurolimal posted:The republic also has slaves. Do you not remember the pivotal character of Dexter Jettster, Bigoted Slavemaster of the Galactic 50's? This is true. I'm not defending the republic, quite the opposite. The fact the the republic permits slaves is a bad thing. The fact that the republic allows the Trade Federation a seat on their senate is also a bad thing. Neurolimal posted:It's more representation than not giving them a representative. It actually isn't. In fact, the members of the trade federation have exactly as much representation in either circumstance. Granted, the Trade Federation itself has more representation if they have a seat on the senate, but the individual members still don't a vote.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:29
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"I like technology, I use technology, but at the same time I understand the failings of technology. You can’t rely on technology for everything so I have this dual nature in the movies: the friendly human good technology of Artoo and Threepio and the evil technology of the battle droids."- a direct quote from George Lucas When did we stop pretending that he said these things to trick us, Ferrinus? Can I get a timecode in GMT when this happened
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Apr 24, 2016 03:32
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Tezzor posted:Rome had a Senate and actual, non-cartoon character slaves - as did the US, at one point It is not a good thing that slavery was legal in the US. Likewise, that slavery was legal in the fictional Galactic Senate is also not a good thing. Tezzor posted:"I like technology, I use technology, but at the same time I understand the failings of technology. You can’t rely on technology for everything so I have this dual nature in the movies: the friendly human good technology of Artoo and Threepio and the evil technology of the battle droids."- a direct quote from George Lucas I don't see how that contradicts anything.
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Apr 24, 2016 03:35
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I was ambivalent about calling these things slavery because it minimizes real slavery by comparing it to the use of worthless idiot cartoon robots, however in George Lucas's mind later seeing the guy who enslaved you as a child is "interesting" and "like seeing an old teacher from high school" so if he's minimizing it why not just follow the leader
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Apr 24, 2016 03:37
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