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Paolomania posted:This gets at the point of why video game movies are often bad: nobody plays games for the story Counterpoint: Mass Effect 3 ending. Note that I am not saying that it was good or bad, just acknowledging that the gaming part of the internet ignited over a story decision in a video game.
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Apr 22, 2016 21:08
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Paolomania posted:The vast majority of in-game time in a SC2 campaign is spent on the cognitive task of playing a RTS. The fact that completing the single player game is vastly more popular than multiplayer has little bearing on what people think of the thin veneer of "story" Blizzard set up to motivate the missions. I disagree. From a mechanical/gameplay perspective, the campaign and multiplayer are two different beasts. Blizzard's RTSes have never had the campaigns be glorified training-for-the-multiplayer things like other games; so strongly so that the campaign teaches you things that are antithetical to successful multiplayer play. There's something that a story-based campaign game that doesn't translate to being interested in playing a sterile, bland multiplayer form when it comes to Blizzard games. I'd argue that the story has a lot to do with that. Once it's gone, a lot of folks move on. It's a mistake to assume that just because you read/interact with people who believe that WoW's content begins with level cap, *craft is only appealing because of their RTS gameplay, and that the only way to play Diablo 3 is being power-level to T8, it's true for everyone. The movie is going to fail not because nobody cares about the story, it's going to fail because its audience is limited to people who'll even deign to see a video game movie in the first place. Paolomania posted:The same holds true for Warcraft 1-3, and I'm pretty sure people played Diablo more for the frenetic action and OCD loot collecting than the latest recycled story of corruption that plays out in the infrequent cut scenes. There's a reason why the property of Warcraft (and Diablo, to a lesser extent) churns out books/etc often: the story and lore are important to a sizable amount of its fanbase, and there's a market for it. Sure, it's not generally the most vocal-on-the-internet audience, but to deny it exists is foolish. It's a mentality that led to Warlords of Everyone Raids, Right? MisterBibs fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Apr 22, 2016 |
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Apr 22, 2016 21:43
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Counterpoint: Mass Effect 3 ending.
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Apr 22, 2016 21:50
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Paolomania posted:I interpret the ignition as outrage over railroading. The ME series is actually an interesting case that parallels Bliz: the first is a sandbox with lots of space-opera inspired world building, the success of which the devs disproportionately attribute to their writing genius and the sequels become increasingly writerly with focus on a railroad narrative instead of open ended exploration. The sandbox parts were the weakest part of the first game though. You had in theory hundreds of different planets to explore but they were all iterations of about 3-4 different types of mission. Even Bethesda does better than that.
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Apr 22, 2016 21:55
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MisterBibs posted:There's something that a story-based campaign game that doesn't translate to being interested in playing a sterile, bland multiplayer form when it comes to Blizzard games. I'd argue that the story has a lot to do with that. Once it's gone, a lot of folks move on.
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Apr 22, 2016 22:00
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computer parts posted:The sandbox parts were the weakest part of the first game though. You had in theory hundreds of different planets to explore but they were all iterations of about 3-4 different types of mission. Even Bethesda does better than that.
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Apr 22, 2016 22:06
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Having a compelling story elements for individual challenges is important to enjoyment of a game. Having enough elements that are enjoyable in isolation is enough to make people forget or forgive the fact that by their structure most video games do not hope up as a complete narrative. Hence why Baldur's Gate 2 is popular for its story despite some really moon logicy connecting tissue and having basically no pacing outside of Spellhold and the Drow City. Irenicus giving some hammy speeches, wacky party banter, and a few climactic part banter is enough for people to forget that the structural problems. Same thing applies to Mass Effect 2, the best Mass Effect game. Mass Effect 3 and Starcarft 2 suffered from thinking it was the big overarching structural writing people cared about instead of the little cool bits. So when Mass Effect 3 says "hey all the cool stuff you liked doesn't matter, let's philosophy dump you about the myth arc" people naturally responded poorly. What happened to Garrus, Tali, etc was way more important to most people than some little kid lecturing you about how valid his brand of racism is.
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Apr 22, 2016 22:14
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Paolomania posted:And I'd argue that the interest is in completing a series of enjoyable prepared challenges yourself, and people who want stories read books and watch tv/movies, but without surveys and user studies we are talking out of our asses. Well, like I said (if I'm half-remembering right), we're not entirely talking out of our collective asses because we know that the path from story-based campaign to story-less multi-player is one that a sizable chunk of people actively refuse to transition to. I'm not saying this refusal is exclusively one thing or another, but I think a significant-enough-to-not-ignore percentage of people don't transition because the latter doesn't have those story beats in between. I mean, where is the challenge you speak of? I'm playing S2's campaign at the moment, and its gameplay is almost entirely based on massing the unit you get for the mission and use it against a setup that is perfectly designed to be weak against it. Even of you had every person who ever played Warcraft 1/2/3 see the movie, it'd probably still fail because that audience (relative to the numbers for a successful film) is tiny.
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Apr 22, 2016 22:37
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Ya but the dispute isn't over whether ppl play single-player or not it's whether they're playing that single player exclusively for the story. The answer to which is, no...duhhh...noooo
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Apr 23, 2016 06:29
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If anyone in the last, like, decade has played a Blizzard game for the story and not the gameplay then  because their writing has been bad-for-videogames-bad for a long time.
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Apr 23, 2016 14:22
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MisterBibs posted:I don't think that's it at all, really. People play video games for the story a lot (ever notice the bile coughed up because of the increasingly common, pure-story 'Walking Simulators'? the problem is a game should have gameplay (since they're games) and oftentimes the stories are worse than those told in "true" games. lazorexplosion posted:If anyone in the last, like, decade has played a Blizzard game for the story and not the gameplay then yeah that's the thing. like diablo and diablo 2 have decent stories and are strong because they're unobtrusive but i cannot imagine how anyone could play a blizzard game "For the story" since then. diablo 3 was embarrassingly bad in comparison.
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Apr 23, 2016 14:25
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Groovelord Neato posted:the problem is a game should have gameplay (since they're games) and oftentimes the stories are worse than those told in "true" games. FF13 is essentially a walking simulator with gameplay added to it. This did not help in the slightest.
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Apr 23, 2016 15:25
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lazorexplosion posted:If anyone in the last, like, decade has played a Blizzard game for the story and not the gameplay then The plot of Warcraft has been very, very interesting this past decade. Almost every story manages to retcon at least a bit of Warcraft history. Plotwise a very unique and unstable shitpile at this moment!
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Apr 23, 2016 16:21
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I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment by expecting a basic fantasy movie instead of a much weirder blend of The Spirits Within and Young Chronos aesthetic. Not that that means good - Avatar was Spirits Within 2 and it sucked. But it is interesting in a very 90s-retro sense. Hat Thoughts posted:Ya but the dispute isn't over whether ppl play single-player or not it's whether they're playing that single player exclusively for the story. The answer to which is, no...duhhh...noooo The trick is that the story of the games is the gameplay, and the skippable text or whatever is just a distraction.
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Apr 23, 2016 16:39
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The trick is that the story of the games is the gameplay, and the skippable text or whatever is just a distraction. yeah.
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Apr 23, 2016 17:53
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Terrible Opinions posted:Having a compelling story elements for individual challenges is important to enjoyment of a game. Having enough elements that are enjoyable in isolation is enough to make people forget or forgive the fact that by their structure most video games do not hope up as a complete narrative. Hence why Baldur's Gate 2 is popular for its story despite some really moon logicy connecting tissue and having basically no pacing outside of Spellhold and the Drow City. Irenicus giving some hammy speeches, wacky party banter, and a few climactic part banter is enough for people to forget that the structural problems. Same thing applies to Mass Effect 2, the best Mass Effect game. Yeah this. Basically when people play games "for the story", the appeal is a combination of the literal story and also the aesthetic, the music, the environments, the characters, the feel of playing through the game. Game movies tend to suck because they ditch most of that and just ape some of the more notable plot beats really badly. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Apr 23, 2016 |
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Apr 23, 2016 17:59
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effectual posted:I hope this is like Gods of Egypt, goofy yet sincere. It's like we're having a bit of an 80's renaissance this decade, with cool ideas thrown at the wall. Hardcore Henry, Chappie, Jupiter Ascending, etc. More weird movies are a good thing. I'll see this. Word. Jupiter wasn't amazing or anything, but it was fun and silly and smart enough to be a good time. No worse than, like Guardians of the Galaxy or Force Awakened. Gotta see if my library has Gods of Egypt in. Warcraft is the sort of thing I will watch on tuesdays or in a cheap theatre. Or wait for home release  With Jones at the helm, and the inherent goofiness of the property, I remain cautiously optimistic this could be good.SuperMechagodzilla posted:I think people are setting themselves up for disappointment by expecting a basic fantasy movie instead of a much weirder blend of The Spirits Within and Young Chronos aesthetic. Yeah I'm definitely trying to keep my expectations low, but we got the potential for a spiritual remake of Enemy Mine going on here! Fantasy is like Horror, it can be surprisingly good despite appearances. So Warcraft could be the extremely underrated Outlander, or it could be disney's Maleficent, yawn.
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Apr 23, 2016 18:10
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I kinda like the new dubstep trailer more than the others. Check out the new Huntsman movie if you don't want to wait for your fantasy fix, it's actually pretty good and seemed to give women as much importance as men, so good for a date night too.
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Apr 23, 2016 18:26
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But I haven't seen the first one I'd be completely lost https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVf08a2nbbI I like Theron constantly vomitting gold or tar in the trailers, it's def on my list!
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Apr 23, 2016 19:49
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:. Oh ya absolutely
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Apr 23, 2016 22:02
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Also, if no one cared about the Warcraft story this thread would be dead. We may care about in a "look at that car crash" way at this point, but we care about it. Goons love to pretend they don't care about anything, though.
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Apr 23, 2016 22:38
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I think people care about THE BRAND more than anything story specific
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Apr 23, 2016 23:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:. Yep.
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Apr 23, 2016 23:37
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OneThousandMonkeys posted:Also, if no one cared about the Warcraft story this thread would be dead. We may care about in a "look at that car crash" way at this point, but we care about it. Goons love to pretend they don't care about anything, though. Warcraft 3 was god drat great. Then WoW came out and it felt like looking at a carcrash in slow motion ever since. Chris Metzen went out to get comic book writers to flesh out the lore for Blizzard's universes because he regarded comic book writing as "great storytelling", and look where it got us. It'll be the third time that Illidan is basically resurrected when Legion hits (first time in TBC, after he got eviscerated at the end of TFT). Comic book poo poo gets old fast. Batham fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 00:12
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oh did he hire comic book writers. i was wondering why blizz has had a hardon for retcons for the past decade.
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Apr 24, 2016 00:52
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Yes, Alan Moore did script polish on the raid dungeons
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Apr 24, 2016 00:56
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The trick is that the story of the games is the gameplay, and the skippable text or whatever is just a distraction. Designers who realize this are surprisingly rare. This is why Kojima is a treasure.
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Apr 24, 2016 01:39
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Hodgepodge posted:Designers who realize this are surprisingly rare. This is why Kojima is a treasure. by Kojima u mean Neversoft - Tony Hawk Pro Skater 3?
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Apr 24, 2016 01:44
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Hodgepodge posted:Designers who realize this are surprisingly rare. This is why Kojima is a treasure. the guy whose games are 75 percent cutscenes?
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Apr 24, 2016 01:59
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Groovelord Neato posted:the guy whose games are 75 percent cutscenes? Wasn't the end of MGS IV like 2 hours long?
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Apr 24, 2016 02:43
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Groovelord Neato posted:the guy whose games are 75 percent cutscenes? The guy who does neat tricks with gameplay and narrative. That you thought of the cut scenes first and not, say swapping controllers in the Psycho Mantis fight makes me wonder if you've given the subject any thought before at all. I'm convinced that MGS2's ending was a giant troll though. I want to be more than just my genes... 
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Apr 24, 2016 03:44
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Groovelord Neato posted:the guy whose games are 75 percent cutscenes? This is overblown for MGS 1-3, but completely accurate to MGS4. With MGSV, he took those criticisms to heart and did an amazing job utilizing the medium. Those cutscenes couldn't be done in a live action movie.
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Apr 24, 2016 04:57
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MGSV actually gets insanely creative in its cutscenes and uses the 'camera' in ways that a live action film could never replicate without extensive CGI, with extensive oners and settings morphing from one to another seamlessly to depict this insane, cyberpunk war hellscape
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Apr 24, 2016 05:10
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That's cool, though it seems less like an advancement of games as a medium and instead an impressive use of animated film.
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Apr 24, 2016 05:16
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Sir Kodiak posted:That's cool, though it seems less like an advancement of games as a medium and instead an impressive use of animated film. At the start of every mission there's a fictional credits role and for some it says "FEATURING: Child Soldiers"
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Apr 24, 2016 05:48
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mr. stefan posted:MGSV actually gets insanely creative in its cutscenes and uses the 'camera' in ways that a live action film could never replicate without extensive CGI, with extensive oners and settings morphing from one to another seamlessly to depict this insane, cyberpunk war hellscape They did things you can only do with CG... With CG?!? quote:This is overblown for MGS 1-3, Other than maybe stuff like Soul Reaver, these were the gold standard in obnoxious amounts of breaks in the action to let characters monologue on you, and didn't really suffer major competition in this regard until Suda51 got bigger. That's fine enough for those of you who like that, but let's not pretend that MGS isn't infamous for being 25% game.
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Apr 24, 2016 05:57
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Hodgepodge posted:The guy who does neat tricks with gameplay and narrative. the psycho mantis thing is interesting (breaking the fourth wall isn't integrating gameplay with storytelling though) but the guy who directs the souls games (miyazaki) does the gameplay as story thing about a million times better than kojima and is half the reason i love the games. i wish more people would ape him because they're the only video games i play anymore. Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Apr 24, 2016 |
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Apr 24, 2016 15:13
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Groovelord Neato posted:they're the only video games i play anymore. Ah so this is why you have terrible opinions about narrative based games. There is room for both things.
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Apr 24, 2016 15:24
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what?
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Apr 24, 2016 15:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The trick is that the story of the games is the gameplay, and the skippable text or whatever is just a distraction. This is why I was very confused by previous posts that said Diablo 2 had a good story. To me Diablo 2's story boiled down to "Find every last porcupine on the map and kill it to free its skeleton and add it to your army of skeletons" and that story was sometimes interrupted by short movies about some hobo first following and then fleeing from Satan.
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Apr 24, 2016 15:47
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