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Nauta posted:"my humanities prof told me you can't be racist if you don't represent the majority of the country you live in even if you judge people based on their race" The word you're looking for is "prejudiced". Using "racist" as a synonym is common, but incorrect. hth.
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Apr 24, 2016 23:38
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OhYeah posted:First of all, the neo-nazi movement and fundamentalist christian movements are so small in Europe that they are completely irrelevant. They are not affecting policy, they are not affecting people's daily lives. Actually they do affect people that aren't you. Just ask a gay person in Poland or a Jew in Hungary. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/14/world/europe/neo-nazis-suspected-in-wave-of-crimes-in-germany.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/5199129/Neo-Nazi-crimes-soar-in-Germany.html http://europe.newsweek.com/new-report-exposes-huge-rise-racist-crime-europe-326929 http://www.enar-eu.org/IMG/pdf/shadowreport_2013-14_en_final_lowres-2.pdf http://www.npr.org/2012/10/11/162663914/with-a-database-germany-tracks-rise-of-neo-nazis I guess that is just not enough to do anything about? OhYeah posted:I'm pretty sure some people of foreign background have had insults thrown at them, but I'm also pretty sure that it's a small minority. "I'm pretty sure" is a dumb answer when you have no way of knowing it and have done zero research. Does this really merit a response? Anyway, I'll give one anyway, educate yourself. http://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/664-eumidis_mainreport_conference-edition_en_.pdf OhYeah posted:Why? Because many of them live in a parallel society and have little to no contact with the natives. Integration into the existing society is out of the question for many of them. Again something that is completely untethered from reality. Even if they lived completely segregated it would be impossible for them to function without at least using public transport (one of the more usual places where someone yells racist things at you). And wait, your argument is that "Well they haven't just been around native Europeans enough, if they were someone would call them a towelhead in no time!"  OhYeah posted:Your question about neo-nazi vs islamist stoner is so dumb that it could've only come from a "progressive". First of all, we shouldn't let people in blindly, without vetting them first. If a person has broken the rules of his stay, he can be deported. If he is already a citizen, he should be put in jail. You cannot deport your own citizens. That's it. How do you "vet" that someone holds the right opinions? Lie detector test? Questionnaire? Interrogation? Just assume that they believe in bad things because they are wearing a scarf or are white, tattooed and bald? Also is it your opinion that we are not putting people who break laws into jails at the moment? Because I'm pretty sure we are. OhYeah posted:People who are native to this region are our responsibility. We have to educate them, make sure they don't turn into neo-nazis, we have to provide them with jobs and public services. People from third world countries, on the other hand, are not our problem, and should not be let in, because their upbringing dictates they have next to nothing to offer to our advanced and liberal societies. We cannot solve any of their problems, we can just make our own existence more miserable. I know it sounds harsh, but governing nations should be based on cold hard logic and facts, and not "feelz". The whole problem here is that you wish people make legislation based on the "feelz" of you and your daughter and I assume, other white natives and thus only things that white natives experience negatively should be opposed. And you feel that the concerns of non-white natives or immigrants don't either exist, or aren't a big deal enough to be concerned about and thus should not be combated in the same way. It's not your initial opinion that I have a problem with (it's retarded to think that thought crime is a thing but that is your right), it's your hypocrisy. I don't really care about your fevered screeching about who should be let in or not, it has not been relevant to the discussion. If you are interested in exploring that further, why don't you go a bar in Finland, chat up a random worker and ask if it is a good thing that Estonians are let in this country, you'll find some similar answers to yours. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 05:45
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DarkCrawler posted:Actually they do affect people that aren't you. Just ask a gay person in Poland or a Jew in Hungary. Hmm yes, muslims from the Middle East sure aren't anti-semitic or homophobic
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Apr 25, 2016 07:27
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DarkCrawler posted:Actually they do affect people that aren't you. Just ask a gay person in Poland or a Jew in Hungary. Yes, muslims are very likely to step in and protect the poor gays and jews. What is your point? If anything you are proving my point: we have enough problems in Europe as it is, we don't need to *more of the same*. DarkCrawler posted:Again something that is completely untethered from reality. Even if they lived completely segregated it would be impossible for them to function without at least using public transport (one of the more usual places where someone yells racist things at you). Bollocks. There are more muslim women wearing ninja suits, and more black and brown people every day. In fact I see them every time I go to the store, without exception. Not once in my life have I even seen someone stare at them, let alone throw insults at them. Few days ago there was an article by a local online media site, they did a "test" to see how much harassement a woman wearing a niqab would get. Of course it was horrible, racism everywhere! You know what, if I go to a bad part of the neighbourhood on a Friday night, I might get insulted and get the poo poo kicked out of me as well, that doesn't mean 99% of the rest of the country isn't safe. DarkCrawler posted:How do you "vet" that someone holds the right opinions? Lie detector test? Questionnaire? Interrogation? Just assume that they believe in bad things because they are wearing a scarf or are white, tattooed and bald? Stop bringing in people from poor and uneducated third world countries by the hundreds of thousands. DarkCrawler posted:The whole problem here is that you wish people make legislation based on the "feelz" of you and your daughter and I assume, other white natives and thus only things that white natives experience negatively should be opposed. And you feel that the concerns of non-white natives or immigrants don't either exist, or aren't a big deal enough to be concerned about and thus should not be combated in the same way. It's not your initial opinion that I have a problem with (it's retarded to think that thought crime is a thing but that is your right), it's your hypocrisy. Facts: 1. Immigrants from third world countries have poorer education and language skills, even after living years in their new homeland 2. They don't integrate well or at all, plus they follow a religion whose values are fundamentally incompatible with Western liberal democracies 3. They have very poor employment records and they are not contributing to the economy but rather are a strain. In sweden 2/3 of immigrants are unable to fully support themselves after living in the country for loving 15 years 4. Mass immigration from ME/NA always brings with them a rise in crime rates. Now tell me some facts which prove that mass immigration is a benefit to a society. DarkCrawler posted:I don't really care about your fevered screeching about who should be let in or not, it has not been relevant to the discussion. If you are interested in exploring that further, why don't you go a bar in Finland, chat up a random worker and ask if it is a good thing that Estonians are let in this country, you'll find some similar answers to yours. I could say the same. Go to any hotel worker in Tallinn's Old Town and ask if battling with drunk and unruly Finnish tourists all day is a pleasant job and should we even let them in the country. Both sides tolerate the other because of economic benefits. And by the way, if Estonians are able to take jobs away from the Finns, that must mean that they are comparable to the natives in terms of job skills and work ethics?
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Apr 25, 2016 09:51
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Darkest Auer posted:Hmm yes, muslims from the Middle East sure aren't anti-semitic or homophobic Hmm yes non Muslims are surely incapable of being anti-semitic or homophobic OhYeah posted:Yes, muslims are very likely to step in and protect the poor gays and jews. I thought my point is very clear, non-Muslims hold lovely opinions too, yet you are not willing to ban them from Europe. By the way since you keep dodging relevant questions to this debate, let me bold them so it's more apparent what you need to answer since you clearly need help.  OhYeah posted:Bollocks. There are more muslim women wearing ninja suits, and more black and brown people every day. In fact I see them every time I go to the store, without exception. Not once in my life have I even seen someone stare at them, let alone throw insults at them. Few days ago there was an article by a local online media site, they did a "test" to see how much harassement a woman wearing a niqab would get. Of course it was horrible, racism everywhere! You know what, if I go to a bad part of the neighbourhood on a Friday night, I might get insulted and get the poo poo kicked out of me as well, that doesn't mean 99% of the rest of the country isn't safe. Me me me me me again. How self-involved are you? Why do your anecdotal experiences work as proof, enough to dismiss all those links I prove? Do my anecdotal experiences of being called a friend of the family hundreds of times in my life in Finland work as a counter or maybe we should rely on other proof? Like the actual statistics posted that you refuse to acknowledge? You realize that you see that different looking person for ten seconds of your day while they actually exist with themselves 24/7/365? Yet you use those ten seconds to determine that said person has never experienced racism in his life and neither has anyone else. And I'm the one operating on "feelz"? Why do you think there needs to be action taken by government when a white native feels unsafe because of black people, but not when non-white native/non-native feels unsafe because of white natives? Why do you think your own experiences are the best proof in the world? OhYeah posted:Stop bringing in people from poor and uneducated third world countries by the hundreds of thousands. We're not bringing them in. They're coming here and both our own laws and international legislation is pretty clear on what needs to be done with them. There doesn't seem to be too much effort to change either. You may have a problem with that but it is not actually relevant to what we are talking about. So again: Why do you think people who are non-poor, educated, and from a non-third world country are incapable of holding bad views? Does the fact that person is from a third world country or poor and uneducated mean that they are automatically a bad person? OhYeah posted:Facts: If you think that I believe the recent wave of refugees or past refugees are beneficial to us financially I have never claimed that. I don't believe that has anything to do with being a valid asylum seeker so that is beyond the point. We're not talking about mass immigration being beneficial to society or not, you're a weird person who can't stay on the point. If you think economic benefit has anything to do with whether or not someone can claim asylum or not, that is your problem - actual laws and legislation disagree with you and we operate according to them. So to stay on point, you know what else is incompatible with liberal Western values? Treating someone differently because of their religion, race, wealth, education or national origin. Why is it OK for you to be against Western liberal values but not for Muslims to do the same? Should we stop you from coming to Finland because of your illiberal anti-Western beliefs? quote:I could say the same. Go to any hotel worker in Tallinn's Old Town and ask if battling with drunk and unruly Finnish tourists all day is a pleasant job and should we even let them in the country. Yeah I'm sure hotel workers are against tourists coming into the country because of all the jobs they take from hard-working Estonians, totally equivalent quote:Both sides tolerate the other because of economic benefits. And by the way, if Estonians are able to take jobs away from the Finns, that must mean that they are comparable to the natives in terms of job skills and work ethics? I really don't think their work ethic and job skills are the primary reason why they get hired primarily on construction and cleaning or really why any low-skilled immigrant gets hired on any job. I don't think unemployed Finnish construction workers are feeling the economic benefit either. Finnish minimum salary (or less then Finnish minimum salary if they get paid under the table and don't pay taxes on that either) goes a lot further in Estonia then it goes in Finland. Here, it also has plenty of anecdotes so obviously you have no choice but to believe it, the first one especially must crush your ideas about Estonian expertise: http://www.raxa.fi/node/1960/1962 http://www.taloussanomat.fi/rakentaminen/2011/08/15/sairaita-tarjouksia-nain-halvalla-virolainen-rakentaa/201111291/12 http://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2014/09/15/100-000-naapuria-lainassa-kasikirjoitus DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 11:29 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 11:10
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DarkCrawler posted:Hmm yes non Muslims are surely incapable of being anti-semitic or homophobic We can't ban or deport our own citizens. They are our problem to deal with. DarkCrawler posted:Me me me me me again. How self-involved are you? Why do your anecdotal experiences work as proof, enough to dismiss all those links I prove? Do my anecdotal experiences of being called a friend of the family hundreds of times in my life in Finland work as a counter or maybe we should rely on other proof? Like the actual statistics posted that you refuse to acknowledge? You realize that you see that different looking person for ten seconds of your day while they actually exist with themselves 24/7/365? Yet you use those ten seconds to determine that said person has never experienced racism in his life and neither has anyone else. And I'm the one operating on "feelz"? I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Finland is such a racist country. Maybe you should move to Estonia, because no one sincerely seems to give a gently caress about your skin colour, as long as you are a decent person (learn the language, have a job and all that). DarkCrawler posted:Why do you think there needs to be action taken by government when a white native feels unsafe because of black people, but not when non-white native/non-native feels unsafe because of white natives? Keyword here being "native". DarkCrawler posted:We're not bringing them in. They're coming here and both our own laws and international legislation is pretty clear on what needs to be done with them. There doesn't seem to be too much effort to change either. You may have a problem with that but it is not actually relevant to what we are talking about. Stop them. European governments are here to serve the interests of European citizens and not the people of Middle-East or Africa. Let me remind you that none of the rich Middle-Eastern countries have taken in a single refugee, while countries like Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon are bearing the brunt of the collapse of Syria (and partly Iraq). If you want to do something good and help the situation then give money and resources to those small countries to deal with the situation and put political pressure on key countries to solve the crisis in the region quickly as possible. And don't give me any of that "it's all about helping the refugees  " bollocks because we all know why some European countries are so keen to important massive number of people from that region: demographic replacement. The majority of the current inflow of so-called refugees are from regions where there is no war.DarkCrawler posted:Why do you think people who are non-poor, educated, and from a non-third world country are incapable of holding bad views? I don't think that. Why do you believe I do? DarkCrawler posted:Does the fact that person is from a third world country or poor and uneducated mean that they are automatically a bad person? No, I think they are much less likely to become a productive member of a Western liberal democracy. DarkCrawler posted:So to stay on point, you know what else is incompatible with liberal Western values? Treating someone differently because of their religion, race, wealth, education or national origin. Why is it OK for you to be against Western liberal values but not for Muslims to do the same? Should we stop you from coming to Finland because of your illiberal anti-Western beliefs? Because they are our citizens and we can't do anything about them, except discipline them when they break the law. People in the West who don't believe in liberal values (civil rights, the rule of law, gender equality etc) are in the minority because every Western country universally has accepted these principles and are living according to them. The Middle-East and Africa has almost universally rejected those values. They want the benefits of living in a Western society without the hard work of building up such a society. DarkCrawler posted:I really don't think their work ethic and job skills are the primary reason why they get hired primarily on construction and cleaning or really why any low-skilled immigrant gets hired on any job. I don't think unemployed Finnish construction workers are feeling the economic benefit either. Finnish minimum salary (or less then Finnish minimum salary if they get paid under the table and don't pay taxes on that either) goes a lot further in Estonia then it goes in Finland. You are right. Estonia is definitely not sending their "best and brightest" to Finland. Your government should do something about this situation.
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Apr 25, 2016 13:25
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OhYeah posted:We can't ban or deport our own citizens. They are our problem to deal with. But we're not dealing with them. It's completely legal for them to believe say, that 90% of human race should be euthanized (we have a semi-famous writer who occasionally states things like this in public). Why do you want thought crime to be something only immigrants can be guilty of? Is non-immigrant thought crime less serious? What other crimes do you want invent and to extend to immigrants? OhYeah posted:I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that Finland is such a racist country. Finland is not any more racist then Estonia. Finland has racists and a person who looks different will encounter many of them in their life, where you are a guest for about ten seconds and thus can't determine whether or not they are subjected to racism at all. It's great that nobody shouted racist things in the short moment that you happened to occupy the same space with a black or Muslim person, that doesn't erase the multiple times they are being subjected to racial verbal or even physical abuse which you did not witness, as the statistics tell us. OhYeah posted:Maybe you should move to Estonia, because no one sincerely seems to give a gently caress about your skin colour, as long as you are a decent person (learn the language, have a job and all that). How about if one comes to defend your country from Russians? (google Estonia racism, I think you'll find lots of interesting anecdotes and statements that don't seem to support your case of there being zero racism in Estonia) http://observer.com/2016/02/estonia-wants-more-nato-troops-but-only-if-they-arent-black/ OhYeah posted:Keyword here being "native". So there are zero non-white natives or Muslim natives in Europe? OhYeah posted:Stop them. European governments are here to serve the interests of European citizens and not the people of Middle-East or Africa. Let me remind you that none of the rich Middle-Eastern countries have taken in a single refugee, while countries like Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon are bearing the brunt of the collapse of Syria (and partly Iraq). If you want to do something good and help the situation then give money and resources to those small countries to deal with the situation and put political pressure on key countries to solve the crisis in the region quickly as possible. European governments signed the treaties that obligate them to take care of asylum seekers. Maybe they should not have if they weren't willing to do that? Oh wait, they signed it because European nations have benefited immensely from refugee legislation before, in fact the whole concept was founded because of European refugees. Hypocrisy again. OhYeah posted:And don't give me any of that "it's all about helping the refugees Yes there is no war in Iraq, Syria or Afghanistan, where the majority of asylum seekers come from... http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics Also war is not only reason one has to escape a country. How about being subjected to slavery? How about being threatened with death because of your ethnicity or religion? Not enough in your mind? OhYeah posted:I don't think that. Why do you believe I do? Because you seem to have zero interest in preventing them from emigrating into this country if they hold those views. Your solution was to blanket ban all immigration from third world countries, so either you believe that such beliefs don't exist in the first world, or you don't care when first worlders like that move between borders freely. quote:No, I think they are much less likely to become a productive member of a Western liberal democracy. So we just assume none of them can do it as a principle because of their national origin/religion. What is that called again? It's a d-word that Western liberal societies are not supposed to do. quote:Because they are our citizens and we can't do anything about them, except discipline them when they break the law. People in the West who don't believe in liberal values (civil rights, the rule of law, gender equality etc) are in the minority because every Western country universally has accepted these principles and are living according to them. The Middle-East and Africa has almost universally rejected those values. They want the benefits of living in a Western society without the hard work of building up such a society. You want the benefits of living in a Western society without believing in Western values. If citizens aren't obligated to do something, immigrants shouldn't either. Sorry but not ascribing a political litmus test to someone at the border and if they aren't a social democrat they can't get past isn't something compatible with Western values of freedom. And they and the countries they come from have contributed quite significantly to Western prosperity, whether it is the cheap exploited labor or the cheap exploited natural resources. Also the West supports dictators, directly finances Islamic fundamentalism through our support of petro-states, sell weapons to pretty much anyone in the region, and on multiple occasions, directly engages in warfare inside their countries and contributing to their instability. So it isn't exactly of zero sum game of us not doing anything bad to them and them sending all their worst people here for no reason. quote:You are right. Estonia is definitely not sending their "best and brightest" to Finland. Your government should do something about this situation. Too bad we believe in Western liberal values, I guess otherwise we could just blanket ban Estonians from coming here 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 14:42
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DarkCrawler posted:Your solution was to blanket ban all immigration from third world countries You're being willfully ignorant. We all know who the troublemakers are and how they "suddenly" found out about scamming the Nordic countries, but it's just so racist to admit that not all people are the same.
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Apr 25, 2016 14:50
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It is pretty racist to claim that war refugees are "troublemakers" out to "scam the Nordic countries" with nothing except your own prejudices to back up that assertion, yes.
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Apr 25, 2016 15:01
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Darkest Auer posted:You're being willfully ignorant. We all know who the troublemakers are and how they "suddenly" found out about scamming the Nordic countries, but it's just so racist to admit that not all people are the same. Ah, I must have missed that we didn't accept a single asylum claim at all and they were all scamming us. Or do you propose that we just randomly picked which asylum claim is valid and which isn't? Or that we knew all of them were scams and it was clear but we just accepted some for shits and giggles because it's not like there are enough Iraqis here! I wouldn't say any of those claims are racism but they don't exactly sound coherent either.
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Apr 25, 2016 15:02
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Cerebral Bore posted:It is pretty racist to claim that war refugees are "troublemakers" out to "scam the Nordic countries" with nothing except your own prejudices to back up that assertion, yes. Come on dude, we have primo evidence they're all scammers, just look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMPVlDvox8s (And try not to laugh)
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Apr 25, 2016 15:09
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DarkCrawler posted:Ah, I must have missed that we didn't accept a single asylum claim at all and they were all scamming us. Or do you propose that we just randomly picked which asylum claim is valid and which isn't? Or that we knew all of them were scams and it was clear but we just accepted some for shits and giggles because it's not like there are enough Iraqis here! I wouldn't say any of those claims are racism but they don't exactly sound coherent either. Their asylum claims aren't valid (which doesn't matter, because they'll be allowed to stay in the country anyway). We can't help the Middle East by importing everyone to Finland.
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Apr 25, 2016 15:12
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You sound really reasonable when you're talking about things like "importing" people, as if we're calling up some tinpot dictator in the Middle East and ordering 10000 refugees to be delivered next monday. I mean, it's not like people are capable of fleeing war on their own, after all.
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Apr 25, 2016 15:19
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Cerebral Bore posted:You sound really reasonable when you're talking about things like "importing" people, as if we're calling up some tinpot dictator in the Middle East and ordering 10000 refugees to be delivered next monday. I mean, it's not like people are capable of fleeing war on their own, after all. They're called human traffickers and every single person who pays for their juhlaraha is funding organized crime and fundamentalists.
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Apr 25, 2016 15:26
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Darkest Auer posted:Their asylum claims aren't valid (which doesn't matter, because they'll be allowed to stay in the country anyway). We can't help the Middle East by importing everyone to Finland. But their asylum claims are valid according to Finnish law, international law, experts and the people whose jobs it is to determine whether or not their asylum claims are valid. Can you explain what makes you the legal authority on the issue because I missed that too?
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Apr 25, 2016 15:33
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Cerebral Bore posted:You sound really reasonable when you're talking about things like "importing" people, as if we're calling up some tinpot dictator in the Middle East and ordering 10000 refugees to be delivered next monday. I mean, it's not like people are capable of fleeing war on their own, after all. Oh come on, that is a figure of speech. Even DnD poster can't be so dull as not to recognize the difference? What people usually mean with "importing" in this context is establishing and maintaining a system which which causes 20 year somethings with poor prospects, or lovely part time jobs, or otherwise in trouble in countries with underdeveloped.. well let's juts say third world or developing countries, to come over illegally via smuggling, toss their papers so they can't be traced and say "asylum". Which reminds me the sea rescue operations, like Mare Nostrum, could actually be described is import operations: they save people from international waters and bring them to Europe lol lol. The next things that come to mind on the general discussion is that established and maintained (hella expensive) system is still not working as intended, it still mostly helps young men with some money, we have no idea who these people actually even are as so many do toss their papers. And so on. Back in the day if hundreds of thousands of uninvited, foreign, military aged men entered your continent illegally and in a situation where they have nothing reasonable to do there and are expected to be subsidized by the natives, it was called something else altogether. The whole idea that every person from a country in war should be given asylum (in Europe) and for-life subsidies is completely novel too... the whole situation has developed beyond absurd! From my pov one of the worst blocks on the way of solving anything related is the bullheaded insistence by the Left that, to use a bit of a hyperbole, none (or most) of these people would try to enter Europe unless they faced some very personal, immediate threat as underlined in the original conventions, OR that Europe even has to capacity to receive all the people who are in problems elsewhere in the world AND that receiving them (young men) is an efficient way, or even a way, to reduce problems elsewhere much less here. (And yes yes, someone will come up with an inane point about how only men can make dangerous journey - well how about telling the men they will be sent back if they make the journey and using the literally tens of billions of euros saved annually in this manner for beefing up the unhcr budget in the crisis areas to help women and children? And also with the point "well the Right says that everyone who comes is a welfare cheat and an Islamist , so there!!" which isn't true - but so frigging what? They are, at least sometimes, trying to figure out other solutions other than have fleets in the Mediterranean transporting people to Europe .)
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Apr 25, 2016 15:56
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DarkCrawler posted:But their asylum claims are valid according to Finnish law, international law, experts and the people whose jobs it is to determine whether or not their asylum claims are valid. Can you explain what makes you the legal authority on the issue because I missed that too? yes we all know brown people are noble savages who would never lie or play an easily exploitable system
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Apr 25, 2016 16:16
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DarkCrawler posted:But their asylum claims are valid according to Finnish law, international law, experts and the people whose jobs it is to determine whether or not their asylum claims are valid. Can you explain what makes you the legal authority on the issue because I missed that too? Over half get rejected / withdraw their claim, which makes you think there is something broken in the system at some point... I mean I get that we can just send them away once they get rejected, but the mere fact that so many are trying and then getting rejected is inefficient.
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Apr 25, 2016 16:24
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Arrrgh, not again, you guys got him started on the droning "international treaty and law" -cycle and he'll keep repeating magic keywords like mantra, as if laws, treaties and codes weren't constantly abused, misused or simply ignored, when not changed as necessary. Like the Shcengen or Dublin agreements. The Left or rather the vague unelmaväki often lean on various treaties when they defend their position that we just have to accept in young men from foreign countries, feed them, house them, provide medical care, educate them and pay them cash after that and that's it, no other options, ever, but forget those two at the drop of a hat. Which, if followed, would result in practically no asylum seekers at these latitudes. (The unelmahöhrö then responds, smugly, that why should poor countries bear the brunt of the load... well, it's not fair in the moral sense, so is not having poor children in the slums of Manila or Sao Paulo who are stuck there, but the poor countries provide you a place for a tent, what if we helped them provide a lot more than that instead?)
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Apr 25, 2016 16:40
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Haha wow. The current system is lovely as hell. It kills people on a constant basis, it benefits people smugglers the most, and it is exploited by people who aren't genuine refugees. It is being done away on Turkish side, we should either get Libya an united government somehow or loving invade it already, there really isn't a third option if you want to stop the flow from Africa. That doesn't mean that there aren't genuine refugees there, something that nobody here seems to be interested in proving wrong. And all the pearl clutching about how this is something unprecedented and horrible makes me think that: A) Some people don't seem to understand that the rest of world exists. I mean it's great that you acknowledge Europe and all but the rest of the world is already pulling their weight and has been since any of you or your parents were even born. Turkey spends 500 million a MONTH on refugees. Lebanon a third of it's GDP. Rents have risen by 25% in Jordan. And that is just the Syrian refugee crisis. http://yalibnan.com/2015/09/26/pm-salam-tells-un-lebanon-spending-third-of-gdp-on-syrian-refugees/ http://dai.com/news-publications/news/calculating-fiscal-cost-jordan-syrian-refugee-crisis https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/why-refugee-influx-threatens-lebanon-jordan-stability http://www.unhcr.org/3ae68d0e10.html http://www.unhcr.org/403dcdc64.html I would say that this is maybe first for Europe but it isn't because: B) Some people should have paid a bit more attention in history class. Let me tell you a thing that blows your mind - this isn't the worst refugee crisis Europe has faced. This isn't the worst refugee crisis faced by any individual country in Europe, up to and including Greece and yes, Finland. And it's not like when Finland was facing its worst refugee crisis it received zero help from other countries: http://yle.fi/aihe/artikkeli/2012/11/13/suomalaislapsetkin-ovat-saaneet-unicefin-avustusta http://yle.fi/uutiset/kylla_kiitos__paiva_jona_ruotsi_lupasi_ottaa_vastaan_100000_suomalaista_pakolaista/8314921 http://maailma.net/artikkelit/nakokulma_suomikin_on_saanut_apua http://keskustelu.suomi24.fi/t/2141383/suomi-oli-unicefin-ensimmaisia-avustuskohteita http://www.kovatkertoimet.org/againstallodds/factualweb/fi/2.2/articles/2_2_Migrants_refugees_history.html http://www.migrationinstitute.fi/files/pdf/arkisto/lehtileikkeet/usa/06814c.pdf "That doesn't count" says the whiner from the world's richest continent but is unable to articulate why. By all means say how and why all the free poo poo Finland got did not count or how 15,000 children taken in by Sweden didn't help with our economy at all (casting aside the other outflow they also absorbed). It would be really nice for you to invalidate all that charity and human goodwill. But on top of that, Finland has maybe the most stellar refugee history out of any European country. And still has, considering that per capita we're right up there with Germany. So you know, sorry I guess that I'm not into making GBS threads all over that and our international relations and the promises we made by signing I don't even know how many loving treaties because this time the refugees are brown and some assholes are taking advantage of the situation. Like Jesus Christ admit already that you are selfish shits who don't want to acknowledge the fact that not every brown person is exploiting the system and you feel the cost is too much but don't try to make people who are proud of this country, its history and actually think it needs to be better then luminaries like Saudi-Arabia or Hungary feel bad. And stop claiming that Europe is being asked to do something it has never been asked to do before or isn't being asked of other countries with far less to give. My side is winning btw since we do accept genuine asylum claims. Sorry for living in a green-leftist dystopia I guess  Geriatric Pirate posted:Over half get rejected / withdraw their claim, which makes you think there is something broken in the system at some point... I mean I get that we can just send them away once they get rejected, but the mere fact that so many are trying and then getting rejected is inefficient. The system is broken. Lot of systems are, such as our whole financial system, unemployment, social support, the European Union, the United Nations etc. but I'm not advocating burning it all down because some people cheat it. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 16:55
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DarkCrawler posted:My side is winning btw since we do accept genuine asylum claims. This statement in the middle of all that mielensäpahoittaminen puts a great, final touch to the artistry.
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Apr 25, 2016 16:58
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Rappaport posted:This statement in the middle of all that mielensäpahoittaminen puts a great, final touch to the artistry. Sorry for not being a miserable cynic about the nation I guess? Is that what you guys want me to say? Because I'm really sorry it makes you people so mad 
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Apr 25, 2016 17:00
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DarkCrawler posted:Sorry for not being a miserable cynic about the nation I guess? Is that what you guys want me to say? Because I'm really sorry it makes you people so mad Oh no, I just like that you're willing to say out loud that it's about "sides" and the well-being of the nation (state) is secondary to OUR GUYS WINNING RAH HURRAH!
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Apr 25, 2016 17:02
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DarkCrawler posted:
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Apr 25, 2016 17:03
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Geriatric Pirate posted:But people have proposed quite specific changes (benefit cuts for asylum seekers, random assignment in European countries instead of being allowed to apply in Finland, the policy of return with Turkey etc) that are quite concrete and don't involve burning the entire system down. Implementing (most of) those changes would require the EU to be functional regarding refugees so it's woefully unrealistic.
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Apr 25, 2016 17:06
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Rappaport posted:Oh no, I just like that you're willing to say out loud that it's about "sides" and the well-being of the nation (state) is secondary to OUR GUYS WINNING RAH HURRAH! Really? We're at "this is the right kind of nationalism" stage? Sorry that I judge "the well being of the nation" by other merits then GDP per capita, you must think Qatar is an paradise on Earth. And you're somehow surprised that there are sides on this issue? Do you hibernate? For years? Is there an issue without sides? Geriatric Pirate posted:But people have proposed quite specific changes (benefit cuts for asylum seekers, random assignment in European countries instead of being allowed to apply in Finland, the policy of return with Turkey etc) that are quite concrete and don't involve burning the entire system down. Yeah, it's too bad that we have to drag the rest of the EU with us to implement any policy at the level that guarantees it will work. It's not the leftists standing in the way of common European sensible solutions to this issue, it's the people who want to burn the entire system down.
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Apr 25, 2016 17:10
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OhYeah posted:Say what the gently caress you want, mate. It happened. I wasn't there, but I have no reason to doubt her word because someone else was with her that verified it. Oh I'm not saying it didn't happen, only wondering if maybe, just maybe a lesson of "around blacks never relax" learned at home might have had some influence on how a person from a country with almost no non-Slavic minorities feels when having to use public transport with different coloured people, regardless of whether said people are gazing at her unspoiled white skin with murderous intent e: I mean poo poo, I spent most of last week in Stockholm, I'm white as gently caress and none of the black people I met on the street or on public transport wanted to kill me? ALLAN LASSUS fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 17:11
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DarkCrawler posted:Really? We're at "this is the right kind of nationalism" stage? Sorry that I judge "the well being of the nation" by other merits then GDP per capita, you must think Qatar is an paradise on Earth. Not surprised, but saddened that FYGM is a greater ideological force than national unity.
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Apr 25, 2016 17:16
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Rappaport posted:Not surprised, but saddened that FYGM is a greater ideological force than national unity. The national unity is doing just fine. People are whining on the internet, not stacking arms to murder the lahtarit. Again I feel like I have to apologize to you people for not being terrified 24/7.
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Apr 25, 2016 17:18
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DarkCrawler posted:The national unity is doing just fine. People are whining on the internet, not stacking arms to murder the lahtarit. (Bolding mine)  This is a parody, right?
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Apr 25, 2016 17:19
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Rappaport posted:(Bolding mine) Another weird thing I should apologize for. Who do you think I'm referring to in this context besides people who are mad about the fact I'm not mad?
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Apr 25, 2016 17:25
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DarkCrawler posted:Another weird thing I should apologize for. Who do you think I'm referring to in this context besides people who are mad about the fact I'm not mad? I don't think you meant anything particularly nefarious with what you wrote, but it's hilarious that you're using "problematic language" in this of all contexts.
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Apr 25, 2016 17:27
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Rappaport posted:I don't think you meant anything particularly nefarious with what you wrote, but it's hilarious that you're using "problematic language" in this of all contexts. Oh. I don't think that "you people" is particularly problematic language on its own though
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Apr 25, 2016 17:31
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nice meltdown, 5/5 would read again
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Apr 25, 2016 18:06
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MY SIDE IS WINNING
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Apr 25, 2016 18:17
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I'm not going to read all these walls of texts. I'm satisfied with the knowledge OhYeah is the ligur of Estonia.
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Apr 25, 2016 18:22
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Rexroom posted:I'm not going to read all these walls of texts. I'm satisfied with the knowledge OhYeah is the ligur of Estonia. Ligur is a much better poster than OhYeah
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Apr 25, 2016 18:27
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Okay, let's try this another way. The Nordic countries don't owe anything to the people fleeing from poverty (and in some cases war). The obligation of the Nordic ountries is to take care of their citizens and ensure their well-being. Mass-immigration from third world countries has almost universally made these countries worse (crime rates, social segregation, excess welfare spending etc) which means the governments of the Nordic countries have failed their people. If I were to ask you to name one area of life that is improved by mass immigration from poor countries, could you name it? Cerebral Bore posted:It is pretty racist to claim that war refugees are "troublemakers" out to "scam the Nordic countries" with nothing except your own prejudices to back up that assertion, yes. Yes, it's merely a cosmic coincidence that most of them want to go to countries with the most generous welfare system for immigrants. Geriatric Pirate posted:Over half get rejected / withdraw their claim, which makes you think there is something broken in the system at some point... I mean I get that we can just send them away once they get rejected, but the mere fact that so many are trying and then getting rejected is inefficient. There are hundreds of thousands of migrants that are unaccounted for in countries like Sweden and Germany. No one is being deported, even if they are denied asylum. Some of them choose to leave on their own accord, but many simply go underground. Watch this mini-documentary about criminal migrant gangs in Germany: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsM2cLnLlQw The migrant criminals simply don't care if they are caught my the police or even deported. They simply say "I'll be back here in two weeks". Unless their crimes are really violent or horrific, most of the judges simply let them go because they understand that the justice system cannot handle the number of prisoners and the entire system would collapse. So in essence there is a class of criminals in Germany that can commit crime with impunity. And then people wonder why AfD is gaining voters in unprecedented speed. ALLAN LASSUS posted:e: I mean poo poo, I spent most of last week in Stockholm, I'm white as gently caress and none of the black people I met on the street or on public transport wanted to kill me? I don't know what to say, I guess you got lucky.  Andrast posted:Ligur is a much better poster than OhYeah I don't know wether to be flattered or to be offended. I think Ligur is a guy who doesn't give a gently caress about PC culture, speaks his mind and likes triggering SJWs. He's okay in my book.
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Apr 25, 2016 22:30
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OhYeah posted:I don't know wether to be flattered or to be offended. Yeah I couldn't ruin my day over OhYeah posts either. He doesn't give a gently caress about "social justice" justifications which do not hold any water when it comes to West European or Nordic countries having to accept hordes of migrant young men and provide for them. And that is fine, you can't work solutions by trying to apply some sentimental moral higher ground on everything. It is a perfectly acceptable and also a reasonable view of things. We did not gently caress these 20+ year old guys up in Africa or wherver. At the same time, we're not using our resources effieciently to help anyone who doesn't have it good. We're doing it all wrong. OhYeah rules because he isn't afraid to speak his mind in a platform where everyone will attack him personally much more often than attack what he actually said. He also understands "importing" military aged males from Muslim countries to Europe isn't fixing anything at all. Anywhere, not there, not here. "Left wingers" understand this as well, everyone does, but they are too afraid to say it because someone might label them if they did. All in all, it's not more complicated than that I figure. (And sure. We all go a bit over the board and use hyperboles from time to time, I do it, OhYeah does it, sure, but so, then. Just read any EuroPol thread and you'll have plenty enough of posters who equate not granting everyone residence in the EU to machinegunning refugee boats.) Some of the guys posting on DnD do not "rule", I think, especially the bunch who think we are completely impotent in the face of migrations of young men from foreign coutries that nobody asked to come... I'm much more worried about that view than of someone who basically just wants people, their families, and friends left to their own devices as long as nobody hurts them (the latter which profiles OhYeah pretty much spot on).
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Apr 25, 2016 22:58
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DarkCrawler posted:The current system is lovely as hell. It kills people on a constant basis, it benefits people smugglers the most, and it is exploited by people who aren't genuine refugees. And yet your solution is to do nothing because ~*~international treaties~*~.
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Apr 26, 2016 00:52
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