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Errant Gin Monks posted:Because he doesn't loving work for Wizards, he works for CFB. He plays a game that Wizards makes, they don't owe him jack poo poo. But as far as you're concerned, don't you want wizards to make people like lsv more likely to appear and dedicate more of their time to magic (and related content)?
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Apr 25, 2016 21:31
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alansmithee posted:Do you realize that lots of top poker pros get appearance fees and whatnot to show up to casinos? And when online poker was a big thing in the US all the sites definitely saw value in being able to say that poker pros played on them and payed accordingly? Like you're kinda talking out your rear end here. They give appearance fees to the players too. They're just not $11K a year because there's no obvious correleation between Joel Larsson showing up and any given player spending more money opening packs. Most of this argument centers around the assumption that the PT and any kind of compettitive deckbuilding is dead without paying Platinum Pros $11K a year, which is totally without foundation. And as was pointed out, its different having a venue pay for a tournament vs. the owner of the game. The assumption that the PT is some big money-spinner is mostly speculative, but common sense would dictate it does less than people are imagining and to the extent it does spin money, that it wouldn't spin money if you stopped paying a bunch of players thousands just to show up to a tournament they'd probably show up to anyways. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 21:33
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Zoness posted:Do you mean the documentary or the gameplay model because both apply here. Sounds like there needs to be a documentary about the Platinum change, called "Leave the Battlefield".
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Apr 25, 2016 21:35
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Other things without foundation: a reason to believe the PT/Magic will be improved by a single larger jackpot tournament, being funded directly by taking money away from the pros.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:35
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Rinkles posted:But as far as you're concerned, don't you want wizards to make people like lsv more likely to appear and dedicate more of their time to magic (and related content)? This cost could, and potentially "should" be offloaded to other parties such as the megastores (who already do this to some level), like SCG, TCG, CFB, and MTG Card Market. If the market share they have is improved by having high-level players write for them (ostensibly their goal), they should pay to keep them. Do they make enough money to pay writers enough? Who knows! Also thanks EtB for your insight into Chapin's frozen fried chicken eating habits and questionable rapping.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:35
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ShaneB posted:I don't really care about his exact living situation besides the fact that he doesn't really have a lot of future plans of financial freedoms. I imagine this is the case for any player trying to be pro who doesn't come from a life of financial freedom or saved up for awhile and took a few years off to grind GPs. I know people that grind GPs that keep regular jobs. They are single dudes with cheap apartments making mid 50s-60s and leave work Friday to play and fly back Sunday's. They choose to spend their money that way and have the time to do it. Not what I would choose for m life but hey, it's anyone's world to live as they choose. Rinkles posted:But as far as you're concerned, don't you want wizards to make people like lsv more likely to appear and dedicate more of their time to magic (and related content)? I don't give a poo poo. If LSV wants to work for someone making dick for pay and barely living so he can write magic content he can do that. If he chooses soemthing more lucrative he can do that. poo poo I spent a bunch of money opening a restaurant that didn't work out and Ii didn't see anyone demand Sysco pay me since they supplied my dry goods. Farms didn't pay me to serve their steaks and poo poo. It's up to me to make decisions that maximize my profit. I chose to close my restaurant and go back to work for Microsoft to live easy for a while making good cash again.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:35
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rabidsquid posted:This is all about A Just World, isn't it
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Apr 25, 2016 21:36
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rabidsquid posted:One thing I genuinely don't understand about this so far is why this organized play change caused Randy Buehler to temporarily suspend the VSL, and possibly indefinitely. EFro is quitting Magic. Pretty sure this has nothing to do with WotC screwing the pros. Edit: Maybe not? Who knows. suicidesteve fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 21:37
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Errant Gin Monks posted:I know people that grind GPs that keep regular jobs. They are single dudes with cheap apartments making mid 50s-60s and leave work Friday to play and fly back Sunday's. They choose to spend their money that way and have the time to do it. Apparently you are not entertained because you see no inherent value in LSV's existence as an entertainer.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:37
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if anyone wants to comprehend the professional poker player arrangements, here's the typical way it's gone since the 2004 boom. Poker Sites which would more or less be equal to the LGS and/or Big Websites Selling Cards that are not WotC owned, tend to run satellite tournaments to major tournaments with a major buyin. Think paying $500 to enter a large tournament where the top 3-5 prizes are $10k entries in a bigger tournament. It used to be just the World Series of Poker but there are now a poo poo ton of $10k tourneys around the world these days. You can sometimes find really really cheap buyins that lead to even more satellites that lead into the big tourneys. Said winners of those tourneys are sometimes given extra cash for travel, in exchange for wearing swag with the poker site's logo on it, as well as the potential for appearing in promotional material if said player wins. Other arrangements happen, but the majority of it is just travel/hotel money ($1500 or so usually) and some junk to wear with obnoxious logos. The World Series of Poker company has no involvement whatsoever. They take the $10k from people who enter, they pay out cash at the end of the thing to people who win money. Clearly this is not how WotC operates. Instead of being a de-facto competition, it's a curated promotional experience. Totally different ideas.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:38
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Toshimo posted:Watching Owen's sister talk about him like he was Dustin Hoffman in The Rain Man was painful and awkward. this is my fetish
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Apr 25, 2016 21:38
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For some reason I assumed there were like hundreds of Platinum Pros around the world but it turns out there's only like 30. It made a lot more sense when I thought Wizards was trying to save millions of dollars a year making these cuts, but it's more like saving $300k, which seems really small compared to the revenue Magic generates. Most interesting theory I've read today was the idea that the cuts are actually legal maneuvering to cover Wizards from repeating what happened with the lawsuit claiming Magic judges are Wizards employees.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:38
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Zoness posted:Apparently you are not entertained because you see no inherent value in LSV's existence as an entertainer. I am though, I like LSV a lot. I enjoy his content and what he brings to the game. But I don't see how Wizards should pay him to write content for CFB or for plays in tournaments. I feel he would be awesome on the R&D team and writing set reviews for WotC. But then he can't play in tournaments.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:41
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I just hope WOTC announces more GP's. I'm tired of the closest GP being a 12 hour drive (because gently caress that I'll take a god drat 90 minute flight) I assume this is done so that the same pros aren't at every GP which will in theory lead to a more diverse player base at large events?
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Apr 25, 2016 21:41
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Errant Gin Monks posted:I am though, I like LSV a lot. I enjoy his content and what he brings to the game. But I don't see how Wizards should pay him to write content for CFB or for plays in tournaments. Another hidden cost to this: by alienating pros, you lose access to more people who would be awesome on the R&D team. Because they quit playing or just never start. Eventually sets will be worse for this.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:43
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Mezzanon posted:I just hope WOTC announces more GP's. I'm tired of the closest GP being a 12 hour drive (because gently caress that I'll take a god drat 90 minute flight) It's being done so they dont' have to spend $200,000+ a year subsidizing players who mostly would play in the PT anyways and don't necessarily add something to the tournament scene that the Gold level pros don't.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:45
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It's being done so they can fund their big tournament without investing extra money.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:46
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qbert posted:For some reason I assumed there were like hundreds of Platinum Pros around the world but it turns out there's only like 30. It made a lot more sense when I thought Wizards was trying to save millions of dollars a year making these cuts, but it's more like saving $300k, which seems really small compared to the revenue Magic generates. I think the fact that there are only like 30 platinum players makes it very clear why WOTC made this change; those 30 people don't contribute $300k of value back into the company, and the rest of us don't give a poo poo what a tiny handful of people do or do not get paid to play cards. It's short-sighted and probably counter productive, but if you were running a company that was paying a miniscule fraction of your customer base a relatively large amount of money for what you see as no discernable benefit, you'd be pretty eager to cut that off too.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:46
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Interestingly wotc claims they actually aren't saving any money with this change!
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Apr 25, 2016 21:48
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Errant Gin Monks posted:I don't give a poo poo. If LSV wants to work for someone making dick for pay and barely living so he can write magic content he can do that. If he chooses soemthing more lucrative he can do that. It's not about who deserves what. I enjoy this stuff and think the changes may lead to less interesting PTs on top of the implications for general MTG content, ergo, I don't like the changes. From the Wotc perspective, if it makes for worse PTs and diminishes their marketing value, maybe they're counterproductive (the motivation isn't a cost saving one, by their own explanation).
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Apr 25, 2016 21:49
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rabidsquid posted:Interestingly wotc claims they actually aren't saving any money with this change! That sounds right they increased the prizes and cut the plat stipend. Sounds like a break even.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:49
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stinkles1112 posted:I think the fact that there are only like 30 platinum players makes it very clear why WOTC made this change; those 30 people don't contribute $300k of value back into the company, and the rest of us don't give a poo poo what a tiny handful of people do or do not get paid to play cards. It's short-sighted and probably counter productive, but if you were running a company that was paying a miniscule fraction of your customer base a relatively large amount of money for what you see as no discernable benefit, you'd be pretty eager to cut that off too. Theoretically I agree with all of this, but the backlash today over the announcement has been pretty loud. Wizards probably wasn't expecting a ton of people who have absolutely no stake in this situation being upset on behalf of a small group of people. Basically, even though 99.9% of the playerbase will never (and honestly, should never) achieve Platinum Pro status, taking away the incentive to achieve that goal seems to have upset a lot of people.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:50
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qbert posted:Theoretically I agree with all of this, but the backlash today over the announcement has been pretty loud. Wizards probably wasn't expecting a ton of people who have absolutely no stake in this situation being upset on behalf of a small group of people. Basically, even though 99.9% of the playerbase will never (and honestly, should never) achieve Platinum Pro status, taking away the incentive to achieve that goal seems to have upset a lot of people. They didn't take it all away though. They just took away your free 11k a year and cut it to a few grand and gave you the chance to win even more money.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:52
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Apr 25, 2016 21:52
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Rinkles posted:It's not about who deserves what. I enjoy this stuff and think the changes may lead to less interesting PTs on top of the implications for general MTG content, ergo, I don't like the changes. they're presuming that increasing the X in the headline 'tournament with X dollars in prizes!' results in more visibility and marketing impact than they get from the platinum pros they might be right if the prize pool wasn't still completely dwarfed by all of their online competitors
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Apr 25, 2016 21:52
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qbert posted:Theoretically I agree with all of this, but the backlash today over the announcement has been pretty loud. Wizards probably wasn't expecting a ton of people who have absolutely no stake in this situation being upset on behalf of a small group of people. Basically, even though 99.9% of the playerbase will never (and honestly, should never) achieve Platinum Pro status, taking away the incentive to achieve that goal seems to have upset a lot of people. Yeah I think this is pretty right on, I imagine they were caught completely by surprise by average players actually caring about this. I wouldn't be surprised a bit if they walked all this back in coming weeks.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:53
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qbert posted:Most interesting theory I've read today was the idea that the cuts are actually legal maneuvering to cover Wizards from repeating what happened with the lawsuit claiming Magic judges are Wizards employees. Unless they were clued in on the lawsuit early, the timing makes that unlikely (these changes are too sweeping to have been decided on such short notice, I'd think).
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Apr 25, 2016 21:53
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UberJew posted:they're presuming that increasing the X in the headline 'tournament with X dollars in prizes!' results in more visibility and marketing impact than they get from the platinum pros Yeah, compared to wsop or any esports big event payouts this number isn't going to draw in eyes.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:54
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Errant Gin Monks posted:They didn't take it all away though. They just took away your free 11k a year and cut it to a few grand and gave you the chance to win even more money. They took away the incentive, basically, which is what I said. No real reason to grind for Platinum now when you've made Gold.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:55
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qbert posted:Theoretically I agree with all of this, but the backlash today over the announcement has been pretty loud. Wizards probably wasn't expecting a ton of people who have absolutely no stake in this situation being upset on behalf of a small group of people. Basically, even though 99.9% of the playerbase will never (and honestly, should never) achieve Platinum Pro status, taking away the incentive to achieve that goal seems to have upset a lot of people. The problem is that the loudest voices are people who are addicted to Magic: the Gathering in a probably unhealthy way or are direct beneficiaries of the previous policy or both. The theory that every good deck innovation and even the design of the game itself depend on Owen Turtenwald attending more tournaments than he actually needs to attend to play in the Pro Tour is beyond speculative. It's trickle-down economics reduced to Magic design theory. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 21:56
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Angry Grimace posted:The problem is that the loudest voices are people who are addicted to Magic: the Gathering in a probably unhealthy way or are direct beneficiaries of the previous policy or both. What problem is this?
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Apr 25, 2016 21:57
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qbert posted:They took away the incentive, basically, which is what I said. No real reason to grind for Platinum now when you've made Gold. How about the reality that there's no reason to grind for Platinum when it means you're still gonna be living with your mom. As a Pro.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:57
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Angry Grimace posted:The problem is that the loudest voices are people who are addicted to Magic: the Gathering in a probably unhealthy way or are direct beneficiaries of the previous policy or both. You haven't actually explained in what way anyone benefits from this new change to have one not very impressive large payout tournament is
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Apr 25, 2016 21:59
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Telex posted:How about the reality that there's no reason to grind for Platinum when it means you're still gonna be living with your mom. A valid question.
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Apr 25, 2016 22:00
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Telex posted:How about the reality that there's no reason to grind for Platinum when it means you're still gonna be living with your mom. I accounted for that too in my previous post. The part where I said people honestly should not be trying to achieve Platinum Pro status. Angry Grimace posted:The problem is that the loudest voices are people who are addicted to Magic: the Gathering in a probably unhealthy way or are direct beneficiaries of the previous policy or both. This isn't actually a problem, it's completely expected that the loudest voices are the people who are actually affected by this. The problem for Wizards is that there are way more angry voices than they were expecting, even if those voices aren't as loud. qbert fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 22:00
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I also have to say I am totally perplexed by this argument that MTG pros already don't get paid enough so it's good to pay them less.
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Apr 25, 2016 22:01
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Mezzanon posted:I just hope WOTC announces more GP's. I'm tired of the closest GP being a 12 hour drive (because gently caress that I'll take a god drat 90 minute flight) DON'T WORRY WOTC HAS YOU COVERED. Helene Bergeot posted:Starting with the 2016–17 Premier Play season, which begins after the conclusion of Pro Tour Eldritch Moon, the number of Grand Prix events will be decreased.
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Apr 25, 2016 22:03
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BJ's "I caught ten minutes of the ETB documentary" review: This seems like it serves the purpose I wanted it to, which is showing people who don't play Magic what the top levels of the game is like. I think I'll show this to my parents and my non-Magic friends who can't comprehend what a big deal this game is to so many people. The part with Owen's sister was kind of cringey and didn't paint professional Magic in a good light, so I don't know why they kept it in. All the things she said, you could say about a mentally handicapped person. "I'm worried about him being independent, and mature, and able to take care of himself."
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Apr 25, 2016 22:04
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Toshimo posted:DON'T WORRY WOTC HAS YOU COVERED. Nobody was spending money to watch goons play in GPs, so this move makes a lot of financial sense to me.
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Apr 25, 2016 22:05
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rabidsquid posted:You haven't actually explained in what way anyone benefits from this new change to have one not very impressive large payout tournament is Did I argue there was a specific benefit to someone other than WOTC? WOTC is doing it for their bottom line; I'm just saying it's not that big of a deal to the average player and frankly, that $11K stipend could be made up by taking a part-time job which has no practical effect on your ability to play Magic unless you truly believe that Owen Turtenwald spends 8 hours a day researching metagames and poo poo. You're continually operating under the assumption that this is going to cause all of the pros to stop playing Magic as though every single deck innovation came either from the 30 dudes who made Platinum or the Gold-level pros who really, really wanted that $11K stipend. I mean, you actually argued that once the pros are alienated, the flow of R&D interns will stop and the design of the game will get worse. Where did you even get the idea that the game's design is heavily influenced by the pro players to begin with? It's all speculative as hell.
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Apr 25, 2016 22:07
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