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odiv posted:I have to wonder if they just gave up on trying to play catch up and are cutting their losses instead, though as others have pointed out this isn't a ton of money. Maybe there are more changes to come. Do you mean the documentary or the gameplay model because both apply here. Goddamn enter the battlefield is trash.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:03
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Angry Grimace posted:Because Magic is less like e-sports and more like poker. There's very little actual value to the individual players, they just think there is because they're deluded. There's no real payoff to investing in making sure Joel Larsson shows up. Do you realize that lots of top poker pros get appearance fees and whatnot to show up to casinos? And when online poker was a big thing in the US all the sites definitely saw value in being able to say that poker pros played on them and payed accordingly? Like you're kinda talking out your rear end here. Also the fact that WotC produces pieces highlighting various players, talking up their resumes, etc would seem to indicate they value individual players, even as they're switching the payout structure (which is part of what's so bizarre).
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Apr 25, 2016 21:03
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Errant Gin Monks posted:Basically this. There is no reason for WotC to any people thousands of dollars to come play thier game to possibly win thousands of dollars. Realistically if you want to be a pro go and take your chance to win. Riot literally pays people to play their game, while also giving out prizes for their tournaments though.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:05
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alansmithee posted:Do you realize that lots of top poker pros get appearance fees and whatnot to show up to casinos? And when online poker was a big thing in the US all the sites definitely saw value in being able to say that poker pros played on them and payed accordingly? Like you're kinda talking out your rear end here. Individual casinos paying to get recognition of their events is completely different than Bicycle paying people to play poker because they make cards. That would be like SCG paying pros to come play at their tournament. Which I'm all for.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:06
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Errant Gin Monks posted:You answered your own question. CFB, SCG and the other team owners should be paying the pro players in their teams. They wear that brands shirts, they move that brands content. Why should wizards pay them? wotc doesn't invest any money in to the pro scene that would make this remotely viable for the retailers, who are all significantly worse off than wotc are. Hell SCG already runs their own poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:06
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As Finkel highlighted on his blog, what's this line supposed to mean? “The appearance fees we awarded for Platinum pros were meant to assist in maintaining the professional Magic player’s lifestyle; upon scrupulous evaluation, we believe that the program is not succeeding at this goal, and have made the decision to decrease appearance fees.”
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Apr 25, 2016 21:08
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Errant Gin Monks posted:Individual casinos paying to get recognition of their events is completely different than Bicycle paying people to play poker because they make cards. That would be like SCG paying pros to come play at their tournament. Which I'm all for. This makes zero sense. Honestly this feels like you're working your way backwards from the conclusion you started at. I literally do not understand why wotc shouldn't pay pros a livable wage to advertise their game for them.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:08
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I really can't fathom how these plat guys really ever made a living off magic. I mean, is the quality of life really there? How would these guys ever be expected to retire if they barely keeping the lights on living like they are college kids. Guys going well into their 30's without any savings to their names or any hope to actually retire in anything but loving poverty. Seems like it fosters some pathetic life choices.rabidsquid posted:This makes zero sense. Honestly this feels like you're working your way backwards from the conclusion you started at. I literally do not understand why wotc shouldn't pay pros a livable wage to advertise their game for them. I feel like the marketing dept in WOTC is especially inept. First the loving forced story bullshit, now all this negative PR poo poo in the last 18 months. Holy poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:09
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Rinkles posted:As Finkel highlighted on his blog, what's this line supposed to mean? It seems like it's implying the reallocation of funds is supposed to do a better job? Sickening posted:I really can't fathom how these plat guys really ever made a living off magic. I mean, is the quality of life really there? How would these guys ever be expected to retire if they barely keeping the lights on living like they are college kids. Guys going well into their 30's without any savings to their names or any hope to actually retire in anything but loving poverty. Seems like it fosters some pathetic life choices. Or they could, you know, pay a livable wage.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:10
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rabidsquid posted:This makes zero sense. Honestly this feels like you're working your way backwards from the conclusion you started at. I literally do not understand why wotc shouldn't pay pros a livable wage to advertise their game for them. Because they don't have to. WotC doesn't need the protour to make tons of money. They lose money on the events they do. So you want them to randomly pay people who are playing their game a living wage to play their game? For what? There is absolutely no reason to pay someone a bunch of money to play 5 tournaments a year that wizards runs.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:11
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rabidsquid posted:It seems like it's implying the reallocation of funds is supposed to do a better job? Which seems preposterous.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:11
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Few of the pros are living off Magic unless they are one of the handful working directly for CFB / SCG or whatever. However, 12k a year is a big help for flexibility. You can take a job that pays less but gives you time off four times a year to gently caress off for two weeks, you can be hitting GPs to keep your competitive edge going and at least cover your food and gas.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:13
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Not only do I not give a poo poo if wizards lose a pittance of cash on the pro tour, I think it's been established that using pro coverage of a game raises visibility a lot and has a ton of value? Riot Games runs a free to play game and run their events at a loss. Blizzard spent a shitload of cash on running professional Hearthstone and HotS stuff. Why are you apologizing for a major corporation over a pittance of cash? Rinkles posted:Which seems preposterous. Yeah, but it seems like they're genuine about pushing how this change is supposed to help all of the pros financially.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:13
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rabidsquid posted:
As soon a s WotC starts paying them as employees ey can't play anymore since employees aren't allowed to play in tournaments.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:13
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rabidsquid posted:It seems like it's implying the reallocation of funds is supposed to do a better job? LSV and Finkle have figured out how to be pros and still have normal jobs. Lets promote guys like that, not guys who live like their college kids well into their 30's without a chance of retiring in anything but loving poverty. How about make prizes make loving sense and stop trying to give pro's a salary. It works for poker and they still have pro's/stars.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:13
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rabidsquid posted:Not only do I not give a poo poo if wizards lose a pittance of cash on the pro tour, I think it's been established that using pro coverage of a game raises visibility a lot and has a ton of value? Riot Games runs a free to play game and run their events at a loss. Blizzard spent a shitload of cash on running professional Hearthstone and HotS stuff. I'm not apologizing for WotC, I just fail to see how playing their game equates to they owe you a salary.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:14
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This is all about A Just World, isn't it
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Apr 25, 2016 21:14
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Errant Gin Monks posted:Individual casinos paying to get recognition of their events is completely different than Bicycle paying people to play poker because they make cards. That would be like SCG paying pros to come play at their tournament. Which I'm all for. Except in your hypothetical scenario Bicycle also runs those Poker tournaments so that's not the same at all?
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Apr 25, 2016 21:15
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Zoness posted:Do you mean the documentary or the gameplay model because both apply here. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/search/?search=enter+the+battlefield
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Apr 25, 2016 21:15
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Sickening posted:LSV and Finkle have figured out how to be pros and still have normal jobs. Lets promote guys like that, not guys who live like their college kids well into their 30's without a chance of retiring in anything but loving poverty. For the apex of LSV's career he was primarily a player and content producer. He and Finkel have done well transitioning out of that but I am very certain LSV was not a designer at Dire Wolf Digital in 2007-2010 That's giving an empty result but it's that documentary about the pro tour or something that was being shown today.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:15
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Sickening posted:I really can't fathom how these plat guys really ever made a living off magic. I mean, is the quality of life really there? How would these guys ever be expected to retire if they barely keeping the lights on living like they are college kids. Guys going well into their 30's without any savings to their names or any hope to actually retire in anything but loving poverty. Seems like it fosters some pathetic life choices. Just watched Enter the Battlefield. As one would believe, one of the best players in the world (Owen) lives with his parents, drives an old car, and has essentially no plan for the future/retirement besides Magic. So yeah, people really don't. I imagine being Pro comes from having either a nice financial cushion or comes with a real lack of financial security. There are very few sponsorships when it comes to magic, from what I can tell. The only high-end product I see advertised on tournament players is the Ultra Pro guys who wear that bracelet so it can be seen on camera at all times. I also know that some of the bigger stores sponsor those dudes in t-shirts, but I doubt it's much more than a small financial assistance for GPs/PTs. EtB was totally decent, as a sidenote.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:16
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suicidesteve posted:Except in your hypothetical scenario Bicycle also runs those Poker tournaments so that's not the same at all? If bicycle wanted to run a giant poker tournament and people showed up to play would you demand they pay poker pros money to play in the tournament because casinos do in order to garner business for themselves? Or should the poker pros be happy with the prize earnings they win?
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Apr 25, 2016 21:16
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Zoness posted:For the apex of LSV's career he was primarily a player and content producer. He and Finkel have done well transitioning out of that but I am very certain LSV was not a designer at Dire Wolf Digital in 2007-2010 I know. I'll just keep a close eye on that page haha. ShaneB posted:Just watched Enter the Battlefield. As one would believe, one of the best players in the world (Owen) lives with his parents, drives an old car, and has essentially no plan for the future/retirement besides Magic. So yeah, people really don't. I imagine being Pro comes from having either a nice financial cushion or comes with a real lack of financial security. I thought Owen lived with Huey in Vegas...
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Apr 25, 2016 21:17
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ShaneB posted:Just watched Enter the Battlefield. As one would believe, one of the best players in the world (Owen) lives with his parents, drives an old car, and has essentially no plan for the future/retirement besides Magic. So yeah, people really don't. I imagine being Pro comes from having either a nice financial cushion or comes with a real lack of financial security. Watching Owen's sister talk about him like he was Dustin Hoffman in The Rain Man was painful and awkward.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:18
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Zoness posted:For the apex of LSV's career he was primarily a player and content producer. He and Finkel have done well transitioning out of that but I am very certain LSV was not a designer at Dire Wolf Digital in 2007-2010 LSV being involved with Channel Fireball has probably allowed him a lot of leeway, and here's the thing about that: if LSV leaves the game over support dropping to an untenable level, CFB quality goes down significantly. CFB quality goes down significantly, there's a trickle down effect. The game is going to be worse off for some pros leaving and right now this is in danger of happening for the sake of shifting around where they pay out the money to make the one big payout sound more impressive to people who aren't familiar with anything.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:18
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rabidsquid posted:LSV being involved with Channel Fireball has probably allowed him a lot of leeway, and here's the thing about that: if LSV leaves the game over support dropping to an untenable level, CFB quality goes down significantly. CFB quality goes down significantly, there's a trickle down effect. The game is going to be worse off for some pros leaving and right now this is in danger of happening for the sake of shifting around where they pay out the money to make the one big payout sound more impressive to people who aren't familiar with anything. Or CFB could pay LSV a living wage to produce his content for them that makes them money. Just like SCG could have paid Patrick a better wage to keep him instead of a pittance. mcmagics demand for 100k for him was unreasonable but 50-60 would be just fine for commentating.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:19
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Errant Gin Monks posted:Or CFB could pay LSV a living wage to produce his content for them that makes them money. Why doesn't McDonald's just pay everyone $25 an hour?! There will be no more poverty!
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Apr 25, 2016 21:20
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And wizards shouldn't be paying because?
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Apr 25, 2016 21:20
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rabidsquid posted:And wizards shouldn't be paying because? Because he doesn't loving work for Wizards, he works for CFB. He plays a game that Wizards makes, they don't owe him jack poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:22
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rabidsquid posted:And wizards shouldn't be paying because? Once you start to make some good points you say something really dumb like this. Take a loving breath. WOTC doesn't pay LSV for channel fireball content because they aren't CFB.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:22
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Being in charge of something like MTGO must be terrifying. It's a giant teetering jenga tower that thousands of people have millions of dollars invested in and if you ever stop adding blocks to the top they'll all be livid.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:22
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suicidesteve posted:Why doesn't McDonald's just pay everyone $25 an hour?! There will be no more poverty! This but unironically.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:22
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actually I think wizards does pay lsv for articles or did that article series die? I don't really read the mothership anymore except for sam stoddard's stuff.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:24
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Sickening posted:Once you start to make some good points you say something really dumb like this. Take a loving breath. I wasn't saying they should pay him for CFB content. Also I am not mad just because I am trying to understand why people are defending wotc taking money away from pros to make a splash by announcing a single big payout tournament?? Also announcing the change in the middle of the season, which you have to assume is scummy because it's hard to believe they'd be so stupid as to not otherwise make the changes effective after next season. Zoness posted:actually I think wizards does pay lsv for articles or did that article series die? I seriously wonder how they go through so many writers so fast.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:26
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I guess it's a little less bad if every platinum pro is invited to worlds. I mean, it's still pretty bad even if that's the case.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:27
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I feel like people are using "should" in radically different ways in this thread and elsewhere which is leading to confusing conversations and people talking past each other.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:28
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mcmagic posted:I thought Owen lived with Huey in Vegas... I don't really care about his exact living situation besides the fact that he doesn't really have a lot of future plans of financial freedoms. I imagine this is the case for any player trying to be pro who doesn't come from a life of financial freedom or saved up for awhile and took a few years off to grind GPs. Oh, also he just said on the repeat that I didn't catch the first time ".. and I still live" referring to his parents very modest apartment complex. ShaneB fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 21:28
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One thing I genuinely don't understand about this so far is why this organized play change caused Randy Buehler to temporarily suspend the VSL, and possibly indefinitely.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:29
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I'm guessing some people who normally play in it are thinking about getting out and/or making a statement.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:30
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rabidsquid posted:One thing I genuinely don't understand about this so far is why this organized play change caused Randy Buehler to temporarily suspend the VSL, and possibly indefinitely. Given that randy buehler is responsible for the pro player club's creation in 2005 I hope wizards killing another project of his has caused him to have a meltdown and become a seattle-based supervillain.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:30
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