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Kuiperdolin posted:Did we ever see Gus' s handwriting in BB? He almost certainly didn't personally leave that note, so I don't think it matters too much.
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Apr 25, 2016 21:02
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Is it better to go outside the rules, to accomplish something that benefits others? Or Is it better to work within the rules, to benefit oneself?
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Apr 25, 2016 22:26
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coyo7e posted:Also everybody has failed to point out the fact that new mexico is NOT a two-party consent state. That combined with Jimmy being on Chucks property means it could probably be used in court, at least in tv world Antifreeze Head posted:This isn't a case of wiretapping. There are no wires, and nothing is being tapped.
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Apr 25, 2016 22:33
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Regardless, it just wouldn't be good storytelling to instantly undermine their cliffhanger. Kicking off season 3 with "turns out the recording is inadmissible and will affect nothing and no one" would be bad, bad writing.
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Apr 25, 2016 22:36
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Supercar Gautier posted:Regardless, it just wouldn't be good storytelling to instantly undermine their cliffhanger. Kicking off season 3 with "turns out the recording is inadmissible and will affect nothing and no one" would be bad, bad writing. It's also not a sworn deposition and can be more than likely thrown out as hearsay. Honestly, the tapes only use, would be some underhanded endeavor by Chuck, to Damage Jimmy, outside of legal means. Which, is the very definition of extortion. Administered by a person that has been deemed Mentally Unsound. If that tape were to hit a courtroom, holy hell would reign down on Chuck.
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Apr 25, 2016 22:44
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 What's with him being lawyer when I have evidence of him being a cop? Oh and he wears a skirt. Duck and Cover fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Apr 25, 2016 |
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Apr 25, 2016 22:46
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People will learn about Jimmy loving with the documents and realize that they don't need a criminal lawyer, they need a criminal. lawyer.
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Apr 25, 2016 23:05
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recording your brother like that isn't very rock 'n' roll david
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Apr 25, 2016 23:17
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VendaGoat posted:It's also not a sworn deposition and can be more than likely thrown out as hearsay. I'm pretty sure it's not hearsay if it's a confession. quote:In the USA, a party admission, in the law of evidence, is any statement made by a declarant who is a party to a lawsuit, which is offered as evidence against that party. Under the Federal Rules of Evidence, such a statement is admissible to prove the truth of the statement itself, meaning that the statement itself is not considered hearsay at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party_admission
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Apr 25, 2016 23:24
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In real life, creating 100% pure meth isn't some advanced alchemy that would set the drug market on fire, but Breaking Bad depends on that assumption for storytelling reasons, and so the viewer is asked to accept it as the truth. Swap out science for the law, and it's the same deal here. If Chuck's tape can't do any damage to Jimmy, then it would undermine the drama of the S2 finale. Regardless of what the law may be IRL, within the fiction that tape needs to be a threat, or the whole buildup to it is retroactively not worth a drat.
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Apr 25, 2016 23:32
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Supercar Gautier posted:In real life, creating 100% pure meth isn't some advanced alchemy that would set the drug market on fire, but Breaking Bad depends on that assumption for storytelling reasons, and so the viewer is asked to accept it as the truth. I agree but at the same time it could be a thematically interesting path if the tape can't be used legally but can be for extortion, forcing chuck to comprimise his ethics if he wants to stop jimmys career.
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Apr 25, 2016 23:36
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Kuiperdolin posted:Did we ever see Gus' s handwriting in BB? Even if we did, there's a 0% chance that it's actually Gus who has been watching Mike. More likely he has Victor or Tyrus on the job.
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Apr 25, 2016 23:36
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The Ninth Layer posted:Even if we did, there's a 0% chance that it's actually Gus who has been watching Mike. More likely he has Victor or Tyrus on the job. I know this is kind of the point of doing the scene that way, but I still can't help but wonder how whoever left that note pulled it off. Where the gently caress did they go?
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Apr 26, 2016 00:02
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It took Mike a while to even realize the car horn was his own, at which point the person who left the note would have already been making tracks. It's actually a lot easier to accept than the moment in the previous episode where Mike somehow sneaks up on the truck driver from a direction where he should have been fully visible.
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Apr 26, 2016 00:08
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I'm pretty sure it's not hearsay if it's a confession. And when Jimmy says he made that statement in an attempt to placate his Mentally Unsound brother? Look, you can confess to all sorts of things, but until there is ink on paper, it can always be contested. Even then, it can be appealed.
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Apr 26, 2016 00:51
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The tape can be damaging to Jimmy even if it can't be used in a lawsuit. Even if he later says he lied in order to get Chuck to calm down, the damage will be done if it is released. Chuck seems like a big enough player that he can spread the tape throughout the law community and burn Jimmy to the ground. This show loves to bring up something that could be major and then downplay it in the next episode. I'm still going to guess that Chuck takes this to Kim or Howard and they basically say "Whatever, if it's true, there's no real proof of anything. It's best to move on." At best, Chuck can try to blackmail Kim.
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Apr 26, 2016 00:51
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Cojawfee posted:The tape can be damaging to Jimmy even if it can't be used in a lawsuit. Even if he later says he lied in order to get Chuck to calm down, the damage will be done if it is released. Chuck seems like a big enough player that he can spread the tape throughout the law community and burn Jimmy to the ground. This show loves to bring up something that could be major and then downplay it in the next episode. I'm still going to guess that Chuck takes this to Kim or Howard and they basically say "Whatever, if it's true, there's no real proof of anything. It's best to move on." At best, Chuck can try to blackmail Kim. I do not deny what it is you are saying. I will ask you this. Given what we know of Chuck, from this show, would he jeopardize himself, by releasing something that would bring down Felony charges upon him? Keep in mind, Chuck has specifically even stated that he understands that extortion is a felony.
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Apr 26, 2016 00:55
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I think the whole argument about the legality of recording people is the stupidest thing ever. I'm fully prepared to be wrong next year but if they do it I will be convinced they never even thought of it and only noticed when everywhere online started talking about it.
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Apr 26, 2016 00:56
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Mr. Gibbycrumbles posted:Pfft, Full-Measure Mike would have just taken the double kill without a second thought, coolly gibbing Nacho as collateral in order to get Hector. Half-Measure Mike is a wuss in comparison. Bullets break/lose velocity/change direction when piercing bone.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:14
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VendaGoat posted:I do not deny what it is you are saying. He doesn't really have to extort anyone. He can just go play the recording to whoever and tell them what Jimmy has done. Chuck is smart and he knows how to do things within the law. I'll bet the first part of the recording is "My name is Charles McGill and as one party of this conversation, I consent to its recording" or whatever then some rustling of the foil and then Jimmy comes in to start talking to him.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:16
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Cojawfee posted:He can just go play the recording to whoever and tell them what Jimmy has done. That is literally the definition of extortion. You are damaging a person's reputation and hurting their ability to earn a livelihood in their chosen career. If, instead of just stating an opinion, you recorded someone saying something, that is self incriminating, regardless of the context and then present that evidence, in a manner damaging to the person, you are extorting them. You are causing damage to them. If you go a step further and present it to them, in an attempt to get some tangible or intangible good from them, you are committing a felony. This was the exact conversation that Chuck and Jim had where Jimmy ASKED Chuck to do exactly this. Or if you like, Blackmail.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:21
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VendaGoat posted:That is literally the definition of extortion. No, this is literally the definition of extortion quote:the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats. Extortiion would be Chuck going up to Jimmy and saying "I recorded your confession. You can either stop being a lawyer or I will expose you." Taking the recording to Kim or Howard would just him bringing them proof of Jimmy's wrongdoing.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:26
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Cojawfee posted:No, this is literally the definition of extortion Black mail is extortion. This was flat out stated in the show. You're wrong. Just be wrong.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:31
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VendaGoat posted:Black mail is extortion. Go back and read the definition I posted again. The part of my post that you quoted has nothing to do with blackmail. If you murder someone and I go to your mother and say "VendaGoat just murdered someone and confessed to me" That isn't blackmail. Chuck hasn't even had a chance to extort Jimmy yet. if Chuck goes back to Jimmy and says "I have a recording, if you don't do/give something, I will release it." That is extortion. Providing evidence of wrong doing to someone else is not extortion. In order for it to be extortion he has to threaten Jimmy with releasing the tape in exchange for something. Otherwise there would be no way to solve any crime ever. If I record a robbery and go to the police, the robber could take me to court for extortion.
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Apr 26, 2016 01:38
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It's only extortion if he holds it back under condition of something being done in return. If he just records it and shows it to whoever, that's not extortion.
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Apr 26, 2016 02:30
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Nude posted:No you're the best, no you're the best, no you're the best. Alright good podcast folks. I miss the days when the podcast was just this, success and age seems to have gotten to Gilligan's head because now he's just as likely to go off on rants about how lazy and stupid young people are as anything else.
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Apr 26, 2016 03:13
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Cojawfee posted:Chuck is smart and he knows how to do things within the law. I'll bet the first part of the recording is "My name is Charles McGill and as one party of this conversation, I consent to its recording" or whatever then some rustling of the foil and then Jimmy comes in to start talking to him. That isn't necessary. By turning on a tape recorder, you consent to recording your conversations in its vicinity.
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Apr 26, 2016 03:48
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Supercar Gautier posted:It took Mike a while to even realize the car horn was his own, at which point the person who left the note would have already been making tracks. I'm reminded of Ebert's review of The Good the Bad and the Ugly, which also took place in New Mexico: Roger Ebert posted:A vast empty Western landscape. The camera pans across it. Then the shot slides onto a sunburned, desperate face. The long shot has become a closeup without a cut, revealing that the landscape was not empty but occupied by a desperado very close to us. Or maybe Mike knew the car behind the billboard would draw the driver's attention so he positioned himself to approach from the front of the truck. That's why he had a pulley system rigged up instead of just pulling the hose straight across the road 
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Apr 26, 2016 03:59
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I was kinda disappointed by that tape recorder reveal. Go back and listen to what Jimmy says. There's nothing actually incriminating on there! Just "it happened exactly as you said Chuck!" Play that to someone and they won't be convinced of anything. My guess would be that the tape doesn't actually hurt Jimmy, but when no-one believes Chuck even with his tape it'll send him on a nasty downward spiral of destruction where he'll do anything to hurt Jimmy, and Kim.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:17
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Alan_Shore posted:I was kinda disappointed by that tape recorder reveal. Go back and listen to what Jimmy says. There's nothing actually incriminating on there! Just "it happened exactly as you said Chuck!" Play that to someone and they won't be convinced of anything. My guess would be that the tape doesn't actually hurt Jimmy, but when no-one believes Chuck even with his tape it'll send him on a nasty downward spiral of destruction where he'll do anything to hurt Jimmy, and Kim. This was exactly my thought. If Chuck plays that for someone who already knows he's a bit touched, it will just sound like Jimmy is trying to make him feel better. It sounds different to the audience because we know he's telling truth. I believe he even says something innocuous like "whatever you say" when Chuck asks him if he's admitting to committing a felony.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:24
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VendaGoat posted:Black mail is extortion. It would only count as extortion if the tape is used as leverage for some kind of favour on Jimmy's part. Like I don't know `Help me get Mesa Verde back or else....` or `turn in the lawyer equivalent of your badge and gun, and never practice law again, or else!.` Until Chuck uses it in that manner it isn't blackmail/extortion. For all we know Chuck could've recorded that for purely for personal validation. I could see him actually snapping and retiring just spending his days sitting in the dark. Rocking back and forth in a full three piece tinfoil suit and tie, listening to the recording on a loop muttering to himself "I was right, see.... right all a long". Until the batteries run down, leaving only the rustling of foil and the mutterings of a broken mind. Now since this is the thread that it is I should add I don't really think this is the direction they're going in, but be honest it wouldn't be completely out of the realm of possibility.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:51
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VendaGoat posted:Black mail is extortion.
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Apr 26, 2016 05:52
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Alan_Shore posted:I was kinda disappointed by that tape recorder reveal. Go back and listen to what Jimmy says. There's nothing actually incriminating on there! Just "it happened exactly as you said Chuck!" Play that to someone and they won't be convinced of anything. My guess would be that the tape doesn't actually hurt Jimmy, but when no-one believes Chuck even with his tape it'll send him on a nasty downward spiral of destruction where he'll do anything to hurt Jimmy, and Kim. "What if I told you you didn't make a mistake? I ratfucked you. It was me. I would have made Nixon proud. I changed 1261 to 1216. It was me. It all went down exactly like you said. I mean exactly. I doctored the copies, I paid the kid at the shop to lie for me. it is insane how you got every detail exactly right." That's a direct quote from the show and it's on the tape.
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Apr 26, 2016 06:14
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I imagine that the tape will do more long term damage to Chuck than Jimmy. Either people will believe that Jimmy lied to make him feel better, or they won't care nearly as much as he does. This will drive him even further off the deep end.
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Apr 26, 2016 06:49
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I still don't understand how the tapes are supposed to damage Jimmy when they're taken to either Howard or Kim. Kim already knows what Jimmy did which was shown in the scene where she gets mad at him in the car and then suggests that he covers up anything he did against Chuck. Howard has no meaning for either Jimmy or Kim at this point in the show. Jimmy damaged Howard's reputation by doing what he was doing after being recommended by him and Kim is competition that just took over a big client of his. He will be even less of a friend to Jimmy and Kim from then on? Big deal. It would have some sort of meaning if Kim still worked for HHM because it would be proof that Kim made Howard recommend a conman for a lawyer and that could have Kim fired but it's not the case. Having the tape be something that Chuck takes to Kim or Howard would be such a meaningless wet fart. Chuck will use it legally somehow to damage Jimmy's reputation. Even if it's not enough to convict him, it will be enough to ruin him as a lawyer because everybody will know. He will once agains slip out of this legally but everybody in the law business will be aware that he's the guy who sabotaged his own brother. Chuck's reputation won't be damaged that much because he will be shown as a victim in the whole deal. The whole situation will most likely force Jimmy to change his name and at the same time put him on the map for criminals who will see him as a lawyer who unlike others will do what it takes even if it means illegal things. Palpek fucked around with this message at 07:05 on Apr 26, 2016 |
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Apr 26, 2016 07:00
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Chamale posted:That isn't necessary. By turning on a tape recorder, you consent to recording your conversations in its vicinity. While you are right that it isn't necessary, it is an extra measure of caution that Chuck might take. Include the time and date for some context, where the recording takes place, etc. It also might happen just from a story perspective to make it clear to the audience that what Chuck did was OK. In addition to potential legal avenues that Chuck could explore with this tape (be they weak or strong), there is also the court of public opinion. Jimmy has been running ads, he's been the focus of a news article, so he's kind of a known name and it's possible some reporter might take the story and run with it. Fighting fire with fire, really. If it were me, I'd probably go with releasing to the media first since it has a much lower threshold of proof than the New Mexico Law Society (or whatever they are called) so it seems to accomplish the task easier and quicker than the formal channels. Chuck is pretty much looking at a scorched earth type of play here whatever he decides to do with the tape. The blowback ruins Jimmy McGill, thus Saul Goodman is born.
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Apr 26, 2016 08:08
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Given that Saul is so obviously Jimmy, I don't think the tape will "hurt his reputation and make him change his name" since that accomplishes nothing. It will drive Chuck crazier since no one will care, aside from maybe straining Kim and Hamlin's relationship (if they want to keep Hamlin as a character) and and giving Kim some scenes where she has to decide how much color she can have in her life and in her practice. My guess is Kim loses Mesa Verde because they are turned off by an unprofessional family squabble. That will give Kim plenty to chew on. No legal battles, no threat of arrest. Is the juice worth the squeeze? Is the embarrassment of Jimmy's actions worth being with Jimmy? That's the scale the show is working on. Losing Kim because he is too colorful coupled with his brothers disdain for him will make Jimmy throw one of his childish fits. "You thought I was too colorful before, well watch me now!" Possibly while also having a blow up chimp with a machine gun mascot.
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Apr 26, 2016 08:14
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Yeah, I can agree to that version too. Taking the tapes to Mesa Verde sounds like the most possible outcome. I can see Chuck being super happy during the meeting asking 'so, now that you know that I didn't really make a mistake and that I'm the good boy, when do we start?' and then being surprised when they don't want to have anything to do with either Kim+Jimmy or the wacko who pretended to have a mental breakdown in order to secretly record his own brother's admission to fraud. Chuck is out of touch like that. He'll then continue to burn out trying to prove to the world that his brother is a fraud.
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Apr 26, 2016 08:27
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Sweet, we have a full year to discuss Chehkov's Cassette! I hope that season 3 starts with a Gene scene in black and white, where he's listening to the cassette tape sipping a rusty nail, and we never get to see how he discovered the tape. Take that Internet!
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Apr 26, 2016 11:32
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I don't know if they can do a thing where Kim gets Mesa Verde taken away because of Jimmy's actions. It would seem almost too much like a retread of the blowback subplot from this season. What I could see them doing is for her to cut ties with Jimmy in order to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
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Apr 26, 2016 12:30
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