Eastern Europe: Olivier's sphere of influence

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Eastern Europe: Olivier's sphere of influence

Svanja: Sep 19, 2009

Brown Moses posted:

So while working on our response to the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs' email it's become apparent their "evidence" is plagiarised from a Livejournal, going as far as lifting entire paragraphs.

Oh, that is rich.

Think Putin needs to fire some people and just tell them to shut up already.

# ? Apr 22, 2016 22:50

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# ? May 13, 2024 22:07

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Russian authorities stopped 55 tons of Polish apples and Chinese cabbage from entering the country through Belarus. The produce was accompanied by documents claiming the shipment was beer.

http://www.fsvps.ru/fsvps/news/16945.html

quote:

Office of Rosselkhoznadzor for the Tver and Pskov regions April 22, 2016 as a result of joint actions with the police detained three games quarantine products (fresh apples, cabbage Peking), moved from the Republic of Belarus on the shipping documents to the beer. The volume moved regulated products is more than 55 tons.
During the inspection of the visible part of the cargo on the packaging of the goods identified labeling with information about the origin of the - Republic of Poland.
As part of compliance with the legislation of the Russian Federation the decision on the future use of these regulated products the parties will be made on the results of control - oversight activities.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:13

Plan Z: May 6, 2012

chitoryu12 posted:

That's a good quote for a KKK member, funny enough.

That's what we thought of first, including my mom when I told her.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:42

ecureuilmatrix: Mar 30, 2011

Hey BM, your tell-all book gotta be called Sass The Russ.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 00:47

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

In another "Bellingcat annoys Russia" news, recently an old video of me talking about our work on Russia shelling Ukraine from inside Russia was reuploaded with Russian subtitles, which then went viral in Ukraine, even though the work was originally published a year ago. Now the Ukrainian government has submitted it to the OSCE
http://mfa.gov.ua/en/news-feeds/for...upovanomu-krimu

quote:

The documented evidence of direct Russian military intervention in Donbas continues to be strengthened by additional findings. We draw attention to the recent report by the investigative journalist organization Bellingcat, examining in-depth different sources to determine the origin of artillery fire on the Ukrainian military units, deployed near the Ukrainian-Russian border in summer 2014. Evidence attached to the report, including satellite imagery, video files and witnesses’ accounts, allowed to conclude that Russia had used MLRS “Grad” to shell the Ukrainian forces more than 300 times from its territory

What's particularly helpful is one of the prosecution witnesses in the Savchenko trial used the same methodology to show Ukraine had shelled Russia, going as far as to call it the Bellingcat method, and his evidence was praised by the judge, so we even have Russian court's seal of approval on the methodology.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 07:30

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:

Russian authorities stopped 55 tons of Polish apples and Chinese cabbage from entering the country through Belarus. The produce was accompanied by documents claiming the shipment was beer.

http://www.fsvps.ru/fsvps/news/16945.html

Good, such cruel deception shouldn't be allowed in a civilized world.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 13:18

Arcteryx Anarchist: Sep 15, 2007; Fun Shoe

Isnt it pretty standard for Russia to route things in and out of various former SSRs, especially Belarus, anyway?

# ? Apr 23, 2016 18:44

A Pale Horse: Jul 29, 2007

In a new, sinister turn of events, it turns out that the far right hate group we were discussing earlier, ONR, has intentions of joining the soon to be formed National Guard en masse and PiS sees nothing wrong with it. :shepface:

# ? Apr 23, 2016 21:12

steinrokkan: Apr 2, 2011; Soiled Meat

lancemantis posted:

Isnt it pretty standard for Russia to route things in and out of various former SSRs, especially Belarus, anyway?

AFAIK not really, it's more that the CIS states try to make some extra cash smuggling banned items into Russia, possibly with bribed customs officials' approval, but not on Moscow's order.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 21:21

cinci zoo sniper: Mar 15, 2013

Brown Moses posted:

In another "Bellingcat annoys Russia" news, recently an old video of me talking about our work on Russia shelling Ukraine from inside Russia was reuploaded with Russian subtitles, which then went viral in Ukraine, even though the work was originally published a year ago. Now the Ukrainian government has submitted it to the OSCE
http://mfa.gov.ua/en/news-feeds/for...upovanomu-krimu

What's particularly helpful is one of the prosecution witnesses in the Savchenko trial used the same methodology to show Ukraine had shelled Russia, going as far as to call it the Bellingcat method, and his evidence was praised by the judge, so we even have Russian court's seal of approval on the methodology.

They'll soon be able to paradrop people who use their own mouth as a step.

# ? Apr 23, 2016 21:43

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

kalstrams posted:

They'll soon be able to paradrop people who use their own mouth as a step.

The thing is, I know there's already one MH17 civil case in the works that will use Russia's attacks on Ukraine as part of the case, so it's very helpful to them that a Russian court accepts and even praises the use of the same methodology used to show Russian was shelling Ukraine. Then you have the Russian government who spends months claiming MH17 evidence is fake, and when they present their proof its plagiarised from a Livejournal. They're a bunch of clowns.

# ? Apr 24, 2016 07:24

Lucy Heartfilia: May 31, 2012

Bunch of clowns who invade countries and start wars.

# ? Apr 24, 2016 07:45

anilEhilated: Feb 17, 2014; But I say fuck the rain.; Grimey Drawer

The parallels to Nazi Germany grow stronger, eh.

# ? Apr 24, 2016 08:47

Fojar38: Sep 2, 2011; Sorry I meant to say I hope that the police use maximum force and kill or maim a bunch of innocent people, thus paving a way for a proletarian uprising and socialist utopia

also here's a stupid take
---------------------------->

Lucy Heartfilia posted:

Bunch of clowns who invade countries and start wars.

It looks like those clowns in Moscow did it again. What a bunch of clowns.

# ? Apr 24, 2016 23:33

Asimov: Feb 15, 2016

Don't praise the Robota.

# ? Apr 25, 2016 08:21

HUGE PUBES A PLUS: Apr 30, 2005

Happy Elbe Day. :toot:

# ? Apr 25, 2016 11:23

Brown Moses: Feb 22, 2002

After some terrible reporting in the Daily Express about the upcoming BBC documentary that claimed it showed Ukraine shot down MH17 with a jet, the BBC has published details of the documentary (which I feature in), long piece, but here's a few highlights

quote:

Conspiracy Files: Who shot down MH17?

Fighter jet theory I

As the theory that MH17 was shot down by a plane not a ground-to-air missile swept across the internet, Billy Six, a freelance journalist from Berlin, joined the hunt for clues.

He spent four months in Ukraine and interviewed more than 100 people in the rebel-controlled area around the crash site. Seven people told him they saw a fighter jet on the day MH17 crashed, and one said he saw a missile being launched from a plane. Billy himself thinks two fighter jets shot down MH17 - one firing its cannon, the other firing a missile.

The first photographer on the scene, Oleg Vitulkin, a member of the pro-Russian militia, rejects the Western account. "There's no way that we would have launched this missile as everyone would have seen it," he says.

Vitulkin didn't see another plane that day, but Natasha Voronina believes she did. She was sitting right underneath the point at which MH17 disintegrated. It was harvest time and she was having a break when she heard a loud bang. She looked up at the sky and saw black smoke and what she describes as "two aeroplanes, little ones like silver toys" fly in different directions.

But Western defence analysts deride the Russian defence ministry's claim that a Ukrainian Su-25 shot down MH17. Nick de Larrinaga, European editor of IHS Jane's Defence Weekly, says the idea is "absolute nonsense". The Su-25 is a close air-support aircraft, designed to operate just above ground level, attacking tanks and other vehicles, he says. It's "effectively a flying tank", which doesn't have a pressurised cockpit. As such, it is not designed to operate at high altitude and shoot down aircraft - which is a major problem for the Russian theory, given that we know MH17 was flying at 33,000ft (10,000m) when it was hit.

This has not stopped the Russian media from continuing to explore the theory. The slogan of the Moscow-based, international news network, Russia Today - "Question More" - neatly encapsulates the Kremlin approach.

Yana Erlashova, one of Russia Today's star reporters, found many witnesses who said they had seen jet fighters.

With the help of the Russian Air Force, she staged an extraordinary experiment and demonstrated that the Su-25 is capable of reaching 33,000ft.

But it turns out that this heavily armoured fighter jet can reach that altitude only by discarding its weapons. And firing a weapon at 33,000ft would cause it to stall. What's more Nick de Larrinaga points out the Su-25 is actually slower than a Boeing 777, so it couldn't even have caught up with MH17. Oh, and it uses small, short-range, heat-seeking missiles, which aren't designed to shoot down distant aircraft.

If that wasn't enough, the Dutch Safety Board found that around 800 pieces of shrapnel had ripped through MH17, clear evidence of the deadly power only a ground-to-air missile could deliver. The Buk missile has a 70kg (154lb) warhead, which is far more powerful than the warheads on the air-to-air missiles fired from fighter jets.

"I don't push any scenarios or theories, I just report what people say," she told me.

.....

On the day MH17 crashed, Valentina Kovolenko was digging potatoes with her daughter. Standing in the same spot she told me a large noise had made her look up. At first she thought it was a plane crashing, but she realised it was, in fact, a missile being launched, the like of which she had never seen before and has never seen since.

"We saw what turned out to be a missile but it went behind the clouds. And a few minutes later we heard what sounded like an explosion," she said. From her house Valentina has a commanding view, barring any clouds, and she said she didn't see any other planes that day.

The US Government says it has secret spy imagery of a Buk missile being launched, but it has refused to publish it for fear, apparently, of revealing its technical capabilities. Ray McGovern, a CIA analyst for 27 years, is not convinced, though. He argues the US has led an effusive propaganda effort "to paint Putin in the blackest of colours" to bolster support for sanctions.

It also features a bunch of work we've done at Bellingcat, and sounds like it'll be a very good documentary all round.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 06:52

Palpek: Dec 27, 2008; Do you feel it, Zach?
My coffee warned me about it.

That does sound pretty thorough for a TV documentary like that. I will definitely find a way to see it.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 09:38

A Pale Horse: Jul 29, 2007

Something for people's crazy file: A prosecutor's office in southern Poland has decided to prosecute two middle school boys for "insulting religious feelings" (yes that's an actual law here) because they spit out the host (communion wafer) after accepting communion in church. A priest said they were being rude through the whole mass and messing around in the pews so at the conclusion of the mass he followed them outside and saw that they had spit out the host on the ground. He called the cops and after interrogating the boys they decided a crime had been committed so now they're being prosecuted. Theoretically they face up to two years in prison. For spitting out a loving wafer. 13 year old boys. What loving century is this I'm living in? They also face excommunication by the Catholic church, but no word from church officials if they plan on following through. :psyduck:

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:04

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

A Pale Horse posted:

Something for people's crazy file: A prosecutor's office in southern Poland has decided to prosecute two middle school boys for "insulting religious feelings" (yes that's an actual law here) because they spit out the host (communion wafer) after accepting communion in church. A priest said they were being rude through the whole mass and messing around in the pews so at the conclusion of the mass he followed them outside and saw that they had spit out the host on the ground. He called the cops and after interrogating the boys they decided a crime had been committed so now they're being prosecuted. Theoretically they face up to two years in prison. For spitting out a loving wafer. 13 year old boys. What loving century is this I'm living in? They also face excommunication by the Catholic church, but no word from church officials if they plan on following through.

Actually the excommunication part is reasonable as if you do believe they are injesting the body of Christ their spitting it out is them literally rejecting Christ. But in regards to that law. Lol seriously that law sounds like something out of India.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:14

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

You know where else has a law like that? Russia. Very selectively enforced, of course.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:16

A Pale Horse: Jul 29, 2007

Crowsbeak posted:

Actually the excommunication part is reasonable as if you do believe they are injesting the body of Christ their spitting it out is them literally rejecting Christ. But in regards to that law. Lol seriously that law sounds like something out of India.

I won't argue religious law because I don't know enough about it nor do I really care, but it does not seem reasonable to me to excommunicate children. I really don't think the church will move to do that at any rate, surely even the Polish church is not reactionary and callous enough to execute their version of the death penalty on a couple of stupid, giggling schoolboys.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:21

Anne Frank Funk: Nov 4, 2008

Kids are

as gently caress, I condone this.

Edit: the law has a storied history in modern Poland. Mostly related to repression of artistic expression.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:22

alex314: Nov 22, 2007

Excommunication can be reversed, if they even care about it. Not having to deal with that lovely religious ceremony you do when you're 14-15 is definitely a good thing. It's not like militias armed with machine guns hunt for atheists
for now...

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:26

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

A Pale Horse posted:

I won't argue religious law because I don't know enough about it nor do I really care, but it does not seem reasonable to me to excommunicate children. I really don't think the church will move to do that at any rate, surely even the Polish church is not reactionary and callous enough to execute their version of the death penalty on a couple of stupid, giggling schoolboys.

Well excommunication doesn't mean you are barred for life it means that you have to show pennance to be able to recieve communion again.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:27

Cat Mattress: Jul 14, 2012; by Cyrano4747

The Church excommunicating them makes a lot more sense to me than the state sending them to jail.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:38

Palpek: Dec 27, 2008; Do you feel it, Zach?
My coffee warned me about it.

Polish Catholic church actually has the exact opposite problem where it's extremely hard to get excommunicated. I mean, even when you actively want to leave the church the procedure lasts 6 months during which a priest goes through your case and he decides whether or not he'll let you leave the church. Most of the answers are negative btw, even when people were consciously doing profane things, yeah. So I wouldn't really fear that in those boys' case.

The prosecution sucks though because get this - in the case of insulting religious beliefs the defendant can't win. The Polish law is written like that, look it up. Basically when a case like this gets to court the judge can't decide that the religious beliefs haven't been insulted because if 'the victim' says they were then that's that. the judge can only influence how big the penalty will be.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:39

Lichtenstein: May 31, 2012; It'll make sense, eventually.

I think it goes without saying that somehow there's only one church that gets successfully legally offended.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:40

Anne Frank Funk: Nov 4, 2008

Palpek posted:

The prosecution sucks though because get this - in the case of insulting religious beliefs the defendant can't win. The Polish law is written like that, look it up. Basically when a case like this gets to court the judge can't decide that the religious beliefs haven't been insulted because if 'the victim' says they were then that's that. the judge can only influence how big the penalty will be.

Nah, Nergal got off for ripping pages from the bible during a concert and so did Nieznalska and she literally printed photos of penises on crosses.

Anne Frank Funk fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Apr 26, 2016

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:41

Palpek: Dec 27, 2008; Do you feel it, Zach?
My coffee warned me about it.

Pierogi posted:

Nah, Nergal got off for ripping pages from the bible during a concert and so did Nieznalska and she literally printed photos of penises on crosses.

Nieznalska was actually found guilty so lol. What I wrote is actually something I first heard from the judge in her case where he basically complained about how the law is written. Nergal is the only example I know of who was ever found innocent, it's an exception.

Palpek fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Apr 26, 2016

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:51

alex314: Nov 22, 2007

I was led to believe apostasy is not that hard to get, why aim at excommunication?

# ? Apr 26, 2016 15:59

Palpek: Dec 27, 2008; Do you feel it, Zach?
My coffee warned me about it.

Apostasy is very hard to get so I don't know where you got that info from. Maybe it's dependant on the region, I don't know.

The easiest way under EU is to register residency in Germany for a month, declare that you leave the church in a German bureau which takes like 10 minutes and then the Polish church gets a letter that they can't do poo poo about. It's hilarious that people have been actually doing that to bypass the official procedure.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 16:08

Anne Frank Funk: Nov 4, 2008

Palpek posted:

Nieznalska was actually found guilty so lol.

Uh, no she wasn't. Found not guilty in 2010 after a nine year slog

# ? Apr 26, 2016 16:09

alex314: Nov 22, 2007

Palpek posted:

Apostasy is very hard to get so I don't know where you got that info from. Maybe it's dependant on the region, I don't know.

Warsaw, it was 1 meeting with a priest, a short talk, "Are you really really sure?" and that's it. I imagine it wouldn't go as easily in other places.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 16:12

Palpek: Dec 27, 2008; Do you feel it, Zach?
My coffee warned me about it.

Pierogi posted:

Uh, no she wasn't. Found not guilty in 2010 after a nine year slog

Ok, this still shows how ridiculous the law is and that two 13 year-old boys would be crushed by it as it's not something you can easily defend yourself against, can we agree to that?

# ? Apr 26, 2016 16:16

Anne Frank Funk: Nov 4, 2008

Palpek posted:

Ok, this still shows how ridiculous the law is and that two 13 year-old boys would be crushed by it as it's not something you can easily defend yourself against, can we agree to that?

Agreed 100% and with that I hope that this laughable case of a man seeking out stuff to be "offended" with will get thrown out of court. If not, pickets in front of the building every day

# ? Apr 26, 2016 16:36

Palpek: Dec 27, 2008; Do you feel it, Zach?
My coffee warned me about it.

alex314 posted:

Warsaw, it was 1 meeting with a priest, a short talk, "Are you really really sure?" and that's it. I imagine it wouldn't go as easily in other places.

Yeah, this could make a difference. I heard a couple of stories from friends who said that the notifications about their apostasies were sent out to priests in towns/villages where they were born where their parents still live. Those priests made sure to let the communities know about this with one outright doing that during the sunday mass. In both cases it ended up with elderly parents getting shunned by the communities because of private decisions of their sons who live in completely different places and lead different lives. Polish church is a bunch of assholes.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 16:41

OddObserver: Apr 3, 2009

Wait, why would you care about the Catholic Church approving of you leaving (since anyone who wants to leave clearly don't value their opinion in the first place)? Do they have some sort of special legal privileges when it comes to people they consider members?

Also, the kids can surely appeal to ECHR, can't they? (Probably well after their lives get ruined).

OddObserver fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Apr 26, 2016

# ? Apr 26, 2016 17:26

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Palpek posted:

Ok, this still shows how ridiculous the law is and that two 13 year-old boys would be crushed by it as it's not something you can easily defend yourself against, can we agree to that?

That law seriously sounds like something out of South Asia, not Europe.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 18:04

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# ? May 13, 2024 22:07

Kopijeger: Feb 14, 2010

Palpek posted:

Yeah, this could make a difference. I heard a couple of stories from friends who said that the notifications about their apostasies were sent out to priests in towns/villages where they were born where their parents still live. Those priests made sure to let the communities know about this with one outright doing that during the sunday mass. In both cases it ended up with elderly parents getting shunned by the communities because of private decisions of their sons who live in completely different places and lead different lives. Polish church is a bunch of assholes.

Is sending out those notifications even legal? Also, this notion that the religious affilitations or lack thereof people who have moved away is somehow the business of their home towns seems like something straight out of the pre-enlightenment era.

# ? Apr 26, 2016 18:18

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