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I am not fond of this fact either. Vriska really, really does not deserve to be the rock upon which the foundation of victory is built upon.
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Apr 26, 2016 13:09
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i think the most generous way you could spin it is that it's really john/terezi fixing everything by saving vriska in the first place still though Space Cadet Omoly posted:https://unofficialmspafans.bandcamp.com/album/beforus i mean, this is better then nothing, i guess? but one last hurrah from the whole music team would be nice.
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Apr 26, 2016 13:24
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The ending is really very Vriska friendly, though to an extent Hussie was stuck because his narrative had John make one change (two, if you include breaking up Terezi/Gamzee) and had to show how that fixes everything. Further it had to involve a choice that Terezi made, which constrains things further.
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Apr 26, 2016 13:58
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i miss the good old days when vriska was a good character, and not a boring one.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:07
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Fangz posted:The ending is really very Vriska friendly, though to an extent Hussie was stuck because his narrative had John make one change (two, if you include breaking up Terezi/Gamzee) and had to show how that fixes everything. Further it had to involve a choice that Terezi made, which constrains things further. John's various bullshit puzzle tricks Terezi had him do could have all added up to convincing Terezi all on her own that she doesn't have to kill Vriska, that killing her reflects some unreasonable anger. This is enough to prompt a change in herself - she no longer is depressed and a mess and can actually do stuff to help - which would be sufficient to make a difference without it being Vriska Fixes Everything By Being A Bad Bitch.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:33
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Serket Rankings, In Order: 1) Pre-Retcon Vriska, up to and including in the bubbles with Beta John (Also the best character in Homestuck) 2) You may call me Mindfang Aranea 3) Fatalistic Ghost Captain Vriska 4) Mindfang 5) Kindfang 6) (Vriska) 7) Fat Vriska 8) Post-Retcon Vriska
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Apr 26, 2016 14:36
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Mme. Serket's a shining example of why fictional characters actually do need arcs, because after her second resurrection or so most readers were just desperately trying to make sense of what the gently caress Hussie wanted to do with her. That's what Vriskatime really was underneath it all, the perpetual question of "what is this character's POINT" Turns out she learned nothing and died her way to success. Five years well spent.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:39
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Remember how the pre-climax was Vriska, Known and Total Fuckup, saying exactly how the story was going to resolve itself...and then it did? Good good good storytelling there. Just the absolute best example of storytelling, understanding character theming, writing, motivations. Just a triumph in the form of narrative unfolding.
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Apr 26, 2016 14:48
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Toxxupation posted:Remember how the pre-climax was Vriska, Known and Total Fuckup, saying exactly how the story was going to resolve itself...and then it did? I was so excited just to have Vriska back, but it turns out she was now bad. I have new empathy for Meenah, who had to choose between the two worst Vriskas.
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Apr 26, 2016 15:07
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GunnerJ posted:John's various bullshit puzzle tricks Terezi had him do could have all added up to convincing Terezi all on her own that she doesn't have to kill Vriska, that killing her reflects some unreasonable anger. This is enough to prompt a change in herself - she no longer is depressed and a mess and can actually do stuff to help - which would be sufficient to make a difference without it being Vriska Fixes Everything By Being A Bad Bitch. I thought it was established that Vriska didn't fix much of anything. It was Terezi being more with it that was the main difference. She rejected Dave and Karkat so they weren't fighting over her. She didn't get into the toxic relationship with Gamzee so Rose wasn't depressed about her lack of intervention. Vriska's survival was just a symptom of the changes Terezi had made to herself. At most she meddled with Rose a bit and helped her with her alcoholism, but she seemed to mainly credit Kanaya with that one.
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Apr 26, 2016 18:07
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Tenebrais posted:I thought it was established that Vriska didn't fix much of anything. It was Terezi being more with it that was the main difference. She rejected Dave and Karkat so they weren't fighting over her. She didn't get into the toxic relationship with Gamzee so Rose wasn't depressed about her lack of intervention. Vriska's survival was just a symptom of the changes Terezi had made to herself. At most she meddled with Rose a bit and helped her with her alcoholism, but she seemed to mainly credit Kanaya with that one. Yeah, I thought that was sort of the point of post-retcon Vriska, and the more interesting facets of her character were elsewhere in the story. Like we've been over with other characters, you get a better idea of her if you take all the different versions of her as a whole, rather than looking at where she ended up linearly. I mean the ending was certainly a 'victory' for her in that she got to do her awesome thing vs LE like she wanted, but for the overall impression of her as a character, the rest of her work in the story was a lot more interesting. I thought the irony there was amusing, whether it was intentional or not. I feel like she also wound up as kind of a tragic character in that she could never find a way to overcome her hubris in any timeline. The one time she did ((Vriska)) she still became a victim of her own self, and even her 'victory' results in her sacrificing herself and leaving her moirail behind.
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Apr 26, 2016 18:59
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homestuck was actually all in john's mind, as he is rendered comatose after being hit by a car on his thirteenth birthday. john opening the door and moving on to the next universe represents him dying
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Apr 26, 2016 20:13
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Freak Futanari posted:homestuck was actually all in john's mind, as he is rendered comatose after being hit by a car on his thirteenth birthday. john opening the door and moving on to the next universe represents him dying what if the webcomic homestuck, and by extension, this thread is all just an illusion in our collective dying minds? how many layers deep can it go ... ?
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Apr 26, 2016 20:17
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actually im dead and this thread is my ironic hell im just too hosed up for it to hurt any more 
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Apr 26, 2016 20:34
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Tollymain posted:actually im dead and this thread is my ironic hell hell, same
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Apr 26, 2016 21:08
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Oxyclean posted:what if the webcomic homestuck, and by extension, this thread is all just an illusion in our collective dying minds? if i was gonna have a dying guy illusion, i'd personally illude that i was actually IN homestuck, making the comic end good
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Apr 26, 2016 21:14
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It's really hard to imagine Hussie wanted Homestuck to end this way, at least if we're comparing it to Problem Sleuth with it's perfectly wrapped-up ending. But then you remember that Problem Sleuth wasn't capable of generating millions of dollars. To call Hussie a sell-out seems awfully judgmental, but let's face the facts, if you have to put a price on your artistic integrity, a few million is a good figure. That'd give the guy the freedom to settle down, have a few kids, and actually get to be there for their upbringing without having to worry about working for a paycheck. Or maybe I'm just saying that because Act 7 was a bitter disappointment (albeit technically impressive, and well-polished, not what I'd call bad...in the same sense that I wouldn't say Zelda Twilight Princess is a bad game, even though I personally thought it was crappy) and the epilogue (the one which is supposed to bring Homestuck's ending up to par with Problem Sleuth's) might not ever come. Hiveswap seems to be the biggest priority for now, and weren't they saying that it was going to be a saga spanning multiple games? That's what they originally planned for Xenogears too  If Homestuck mutated into something radically different from Hussie's initial vision, the proper thing would be to admit it grew out of control, sweep it under the rug, and move on to a more manageable project. But good luck doing that when you can have "Homestuck 2.0," whatever THAT is, paying dividends decades after AIM and Flash have been declared obsolete. Perhaps more than anything else (even an epilogue) I'd just like Hussie to come clean with how the finished product differs from his original plans for Homestuck. It seems "obvious" that aspects like Cronus the Greaserkin PUA troll alien dirtbag and "Davepetasprite^2" are a combination of pandering to a certain audience while also having fun improvising with the in-universe constructs, but other post-act 5 aspects could go either way (Caliborn and Calliope, Gamzee managing to become a primary antagonist by loving around, the whole universe-destroying snake mating dance, probably other crap too like the Retcon ability) Hussie's so enigmatic that I wouldn't ever expect an answer, much less a straight one, but us die-hard obsessive fans can't help but wonder.
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Apr 26, 2016 21:51
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I'm still fairly sure that "Homestuck 2.0" just means "Hussie's next big project", rather than something directly connected to Homestuck.
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Apr 26, 2016 22:10
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i still need to get around to reading problem sleuth someday
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Apr 26, 2016 22:17
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Many Homeheads (slang for homestuck fan) have different opinion on when Homestuck became Homeshit. Some Homeheads say it was when the trolls were introduced others, say it's when the post scratch kids were introduced. But by the time the elephant sized piece of rotten poo poo called "act 7" rolled around all Homeheads agreed that it had become Homeshit at that point.
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Apr 26, 2016 23:53
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Toxxupation posted:Remember how the pre-climax was Vriska, Known and Total Fuckup, saying exactly how the story was going to resolve itself...and then it did? Yeah, no one EVER shows a montage execution of a plan! That would be stupid, and not at all a thing you see in movies all the drat time!
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Apr 27, 2016 00:42
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Keiya posted:Yeah, no one EVER shows a montage execution of a plan! That would be stupid, and not at all a thing you see in movies all the drat time! If you can give me three examples of someone explaining a plan in advance and then said plan going off, as explained, without a hitch, I'd be impressed and saddened. Some cliches exist for a reason and "things never go according to plan" is one of them, the inverse is rarely done because it means you've just deflated the tension from what's supposed to be a climactic point of your stories. e: even more so when the mastermind is Vriska, someone whose schemes have a long and storied reputation of blowing up in her face, sometimes literally. Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Apr 27, 2016 |
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Apr 27, 2016 00:44
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Keiya posted:Yeah, no one EVER shows a montage execution of a plan! That would be stupid, and not at all a thing you see in movies all the drat time! That is not a thing you ever see in movies. At least, not good ones. As a matter of fact, a movie truism is "Never tell the audience the same information twice". See also: Every heist movie ever made, which sometime in the first act has the main character describing exactly how the plan will go off under perfect conditions, usually via montage, and that same movie's climax, in which the heist goes wrong either from within, without, or was engineered to fail to reveal the secondary, larger heist that was never told to the audience. You could not be more hilariously, laughably off base if you tried. That's the whole point of moviemaking and, really, all media: revealing a plan before a climax and then having that climax go perfectly according to plan removes all stakes or weight from the climax and bores the audience, because you're telling them things they already know. As shown by Act 7 being predictable, pointless garbage because, among everything else it did wrong (which was literally everything else) it ended up telling everyone what they already knew was going to happen. NieR Occomata fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Apr 27, 2016 |
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Apr 27, 2016 00:53
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You seem to be under the impression that Collide was the story's climax, despite coming after the denouement.
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Apr 27, 2016 00:55
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Yes, that certainly is a meme people have clung to so that they could excuse a sloppy finale.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:00
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Hussie once considered the end of act 5 to be the story's climax. The idea of the actual events being wrapped up in the ending has been around since 2011. Obviously goalposts have shifted since then, but it's hardly a sudden justification. Why are you so sure this is the climax when you've been arguing about how it doesn't work as a climax?
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Apr 27, 2016 01:03
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Are you seriously arguing, are you seriously unironically arguing, that the confrontation against Lord English is not the climax of Homestuck?
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Apr 27, 2016 01:04
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Tenebrais posted:Hussie once considered the end of act 5 to be the story's climax. The idea of the actual events being wrapped up in the ending has been around since 2011. Obviously goalposts have shifted since then, but it's hardly a sudden justification. Because, as I said before, I'm willing to let something be bad. Rather than creating lengthy, tortured justifications for why a bloated, distracted, overlong piece of work riddled with lengthy pauses collapsed on itself when it came time to wrap everything up, I'm comfortable just saying it messed up in very ordinary, traditional ways. Homestuck was remarkable in its presentation and ambition, but mundane in its failure.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:04
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toxxupation why do you do this to yourself
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Apr 27, 2016 01:07
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Toxxupation posted:Are you seriously arguing, are you seriously unironically arguing, that the confrontation against Lord English is not the climax of Homestuck? He wasn't even taken down during the comic. If his defeat was the climax, it didn't have a climax at all.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:08
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Tenebrais posted:He wasn't even taken down during the comic. If his defeat was the climax, it didn't have a climax at all. How about that.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:10
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get 'em, t/oxx
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Apr 27, 2016 01:11
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It seems pretty obvious at this point that the defeat of Lord English was not the climax. Where the climax was or if there was one is something I could not immediately answer.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:12
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That's a failure of execution, not of intention. Intentionally speaking, the Lord English fight was absolutely supposed to be the climax of years of storytelling, not "Vriska opens a box that she said she would open years beforehand, some light spills out, and Everybody Wins".
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Apr 27, 2016 01:15
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Toxxupation posted:That's a failure of execution, not of intention. Intentionally speaking, the Lord English fight was absolutely supposed to be the climax of years of storytelling, not "Vriska opens a box that she said she would open years beforehand, some light spills out, and Everybody Wins". I am not at all certain of that! To be fair I have no idea what it was supposed to be, but Hussie has demonstrated enough skill at storytelling that I'm going to assume he was aiming for something interesting, even if it flopped and I don't get it.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:19
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Why does this one poster, the one with all the x-es in the username, keep making two variations on the same angry post?
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Apr 27, 2016 01:20
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Oxxidation posted:If you can give me three examples of someone explaining a plan in advance and then said plan going off, as explained, without a hitch, I'd be impressed and saddened.
*shrug*
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Apr 27, 2016 01:27
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GunnerJ posted:Why does this one poster, the one with all the x-es in the username, keep making two variations on the same angry post? truly a question for the ages
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Apr 27, 2016 01:35
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I Am Goon and must Hoot Forlornly at the Bottom of this Miserable Well about My Opinions
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Apr 27, 2016 01:36
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Plom Bar posted:
I don't know if Star Wars really works, as there's lots of complications in the Rebel's plans, in the form of Darth Vader, also the targeting computer not working and Luke realizing he has to disregard it and trust the Force.
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Apr 27, 2016 01:45
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