|
In case you're interested in learning how the asylum seekers' claims of origin are supposed to be checked, here's how: They are interviewed and asked specific questions about living in their home region. Oh, you're from Aleppo? Please describe your commute to work. Which bus do you take? How much does it cost? What do you see along the route? If linguistic experts are available, their dialect is scrutinised etc. It's not a 100% foolproof system, nothing is, but it's not easy to cheat.
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 10:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 17:32 |
|
|
OhYeah posted:But we can help them. Give money, personnel and other resources to countries that are housing the majority of the refugees (Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan) and put political and diplomatic pressure on Middle-Eastern leaders to solve the crisis quickly. We can help millions and end to conflict or we can help a fraction of those people and do nothing while countries like Syria are razed to the ground. One is a permanent solution which goes after the root of the problem, the other is a bandaid solution whose only goal is short-term: to appeal to your progressive voter base. I agree this should be done and probably is done already to a degree. One is permanent solution (well, I doubt we can solve it fully but we sure can do more there than here like you said) and the other is a band-aid BUT the goal of the band-aid is not to appeal to voters. (Or if it is to someone, that's plain wrong.) If you apply a literal band-aid to a wound, it won't prevent wounds but will help stop the bleeding. The problems in the Middle-East are long-term but the people who flee from there need acute aid. It'd be great if no-one would have to flee but since some do, structural aid isn't helping them find safety. We're still left with a load of people coming over the border and many of them need aid right away. We can help them there and help the fraction here. It's not mutually exclusive. e: For the record, I don't expect us to be capable of handling either perfectly or to be able to help everyone but that kind of a prioritization of resources probably isn't relevant to the conversation here. quote:For some reason Sweden for example has decided that to test asylum seekers who claim to be underage is racist and discriminatory. So instead they have decided to put adult men together with vulnerable children. You know, err on the side of caution, so to speak. With a disclaimer that I don't know anything about Swedish politics, that sounds dumb. Of course you should test them. Checking their identity is hard for sure and there will be errors. I'm pretty confident (based on a few articles I've read) that a good interviewer can catch quite a few dishonest people and from what I've read about the asylym applicant/grantee ratios, they do manage quite well. Still, it won't be perfect. When a smuggler advices to destroy your ID, quite many apparently do so, even if they would eligible to asylym anyway. That must make it double hard. Valiantman fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Apr 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 10:16
|
|
|
OhYeah posted:
Why is the Line drawn at nationality or Culture and not race?
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 10:31
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:Yes and I suppose you must have also missed the fact that nobody in this thread believes that. Majority coming to Europe do come from warzones or refugee camps and did last year too. how do you know nobody in this thread believes that? have you asked every poster in this thread if they do or do not believe it? why are you making sweeping generalizations based on your personal opinion? i think youll find that it's YOU who's the stoopid dick liar  again you preach that i (or someone else) shouldn't do a thing you do yourself. you know there's a word for you? it's "hypocrite". what do i have to deal with? the pdf you linked contains no new information (and doesn't say anything about refugee camps). just because you post a link and foam at your mouth doesn't make your case any stronger than mine. you could argue that majority of them are here due to total war and i could argue that the sudden influx of refugees is due to social media and human traffickers telling them it's highly likely they'll get free money and housing and jobs and whatnot if they tell a sad story. pure stats don't 100% confirm either story, they only state the obvious which is the number of people entering europe. DEAL WITH IT hell, i'd be willing to risk death right now if i was promised a better standard of living for nothing in return, especially given that STATISTICALLY  i'd have a high chance of surviving and i'd get my invested money back down the line. risking death does not automatically mean you MUST be escaping inexplicable horrors
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 10:31
|
|
|
Herman Merman posted:In case you're interested in learning how the asylum seekers' claims of origin are supposed to be checked, here's how: They are interviewed and asked specific questions about living in their home region. Oh, you're from Aleppo? Please describe your commute to work. Which bus do you take? How much does it cost? What do you see along the route? If linguistic experts are available, their dialect is scrutinised etc. I guess you missed all the detailed instructions on what to say going around on social media and the news articles about how the refugees' stories are - surprise surprise - the exact copy of those instructions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 11:11
|
|
|
doverhog posted:Why is the Line drawn at nationality or Culture and not race? should the line be drawn at race?
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 11:33
|
|
|
The line should be drawn on the passport you hold.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 11:54
|
|
|
Nauta posted:should the line be drawn at race? No.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 12:47
|
|
|
OhYeah posted:For some reason Sweden for example has decided that to test asylum seekers who claim to be underage is racist and discriminatory. So instead they have decided to put adult men together with vulnerable children. You know, err on the side of caution, so to speak. This, like most everything you post, is, of course, wrong. I don't imagine you care much (since clearly you much prefer the imaginary alternate reality you've created for yourself – this insipid figment of your dull, gullible mind – to the real world), but asylum seekers do, in fact, have their ages assessed in Sweden. First at application (preliminary evaluation), and, ultimately, during/after processing and investigation – which may include methods of medical age assessment. If you are interested (which, again, clearly you are not) the official guidelines for the latter are available here (in Swedish), and summarized here (in English). I think you will find a notable absence of the reasons you imagine, for the things you think aren't done (quelle surprise). It is true, however, that Swedish authorities place less import (relatively speaking) on the results of medical age assessments than in some other countries – but from this does not follow that they are discouraged, or that they are discouraged for the reasons you (a very stupid person) think they are. Cake Smashing Boob fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Apr 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 13:42
|
|
|
no your stupid
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 14:17
|
|
|
Is this the new refugee thread? I though that thing was over.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 14:25
|
|
|
OhYeah posted:A few "shitheads" who exploit the system? Do you understand that majority of them will never be able to fully support themselves in Europe? They will be a permanent underclass whom the working natives will have to support instead. The problem is that the number of educated and working natives keep shrinking and the number of immigrants, or their descendants, keeps increasing. Refugees aren't supposed to be a financial benefit to the country receiving them. That wasn't the system when European refugees were being taken to other countries, it's not the system when developing countries receive refugees and rich countries don't deserve some weird opt-out when a) that wasn't applied to their own refugee citizens when they were poo poo-poor war-torn countries benefiting from the same system b) no other country receiving refugees is making that demand Also I'm sorry that you feel that someone born in a country where they have lived their whole lives isn't a native citizen but instead a "descendant of immigrant", but the dictionary, laws of said countries and basic reasoning disagree with you. OhYeah posted:Leading a country shouldn't be making "feelz good" policies without thinking the long term cost of them. That's why Sweden and Germany will be third world countries in about one generation. Yeah clearly you're operating on facts and not feelz because that statement makes complete sense and is based on demographic reality. OhYeah posted:There is nothing wrong with nationalism, it doesn't equate to being a loving nazi. People and their leaders are only responsible for, and owe allegiance to, their homeland. It is morally wrong to implement policies that help foreigners (who have nothing to do with your country or culture) at the expense of your own people. I don't understand why it's such a controversial standpoint. Because that sort of thinking isn't part of Western liberal values and it stands out? Why is it morally wrong for rich countries to host refugees at the expense of their own citizens but not for poor countries? Do you feel that the concept of refugee shouldn't exist at all because if it is morally wrong period, there would not be no place to go for them? That is another controversial opinion, I would imagine especially in Estonia, a country that has a history of producing war refugees and people seeking escaping a brutal dictatorship. Nauta posted:how do you know nobody in this thread believes that? have you asked every poster in this thread if they do or do not believe it? why are you making sweeping generalizations based on your personal opinion? i think youll find that it's YOU who's the stoopid dick liar Haha do you just believe people hold completely crazy opinions until you've asked them? I base it on having read this thread from the beginning to the end and I have no reason to think anyone here is clinically insane, kind of like how I don't think you are a potential cannibal. Maybe there are some lurkers who believe using a refugee crisis as a stepping stone for a better situation is an OK thing but that's batshit nuts so I'm going to give the posters the benefit of the doubt. Nauta posted:what do i have to deal with? the pdf you linked contains no new information (and doesn't say anything about refugee camps). just because you post a link and foam at your mouth doesn't make your case any stronger than mine. you could argue that majority of them are here due to total war and i could argue that the sudden influx of refugees is due to social media and human traffickers telling them it's highly likely they'll get free money and housing and jobs and whatnot if they tell a sad story. pure stats don't 100% confirm either story, they only state the obvious which is the number of people entering europe. DEAL WITH IT If more then half of the people are from Syria, guess what they are from either a refugee camp or a warzone because every Syrian person that lived in the country before the starting of the civil war and doesn't live there anymore is. That is without even counting the people from the other war-torn shitholes and refugee camps. Like if you spent five seconds thinking about this you wouldn't be repeatedly embarrassed and you wouldn't have to be mad about the fact that you are being repeatedly embarrassed. And I wouldn't have to waste space in teaching you stuff that they should have taught you in school about basic reading comprehension. Like are you assuming that they are lying about being Syrians or what? What possible evidence you have about that then your gut feeling? Do you think UNHCR completely lacks ways to check out whether or not someone is from the country they say they are from?  If you have to invent things to justify your beliefs feel free to do so but that isn't something that's going to get you very far in a debate with someone who acknowledges you know, reality. Most asylum seekers are from a warzone or a refugee camp. Again, this is just something you are going to have deal with, I'm sorry. Nauta posted:hell, i'd be willing to risk death right now if i was promised a better standard of living for nothing in return, especially given that STATISTICALLY Which is again not an argument I made anywhere. They're not risking death to escape inexplicable horrors (they already did that and ended up in a refugee camp), they are risking death because unlike the vast majority of refugees they have the option to give their family a chance to live somewhere better then overcrowded developing nations without enough resources to even give all refugee children an education, much less anything but a sub-standard living. If I drag you out of the cold and give you a chance to sleep on the floor or the bed, are you a loving rear end in a top hat for choosing the bed? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:49 on Apr 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 14:27
|
|
|
kikkelivelho posted:Is this the new refugee thread? I though that thing was over. There is no cure for Ligurian monomania.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 14:42
|
|
|
The belief that some official can certainly determine the country of origin of a person who has vanished his documents on purpose and wants to lie for a residence permit is astonishing itt. If you have not lived in Aleppo, you certainly cannot determine if someone else has. Especially during a one time interview probably through a translator. In an overloaded bureaucracy. God drat people are naive. It never will cease to astonish me.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 14:43
|
|
|
Cake Smashing Boob posted:There is no cure for Ligurian monomania. Yeah sssuuuure. I am the only person who discusses the topic. Also your age test stuff is bs. It is possible to age test according to scripture, but Swedes generally do not. Everyone knows it. This is also why Sweden receives 1000 bazillion more "under-age" asylum seekers than anyone.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 14:53
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:If more then half of the people are from Syria, guess what they are from either a refugee camp or a warzone because every Syrian person that lived in the country before the starting of the civil war and doesn't live there anymore is. Too bad the "children" coming to Finland aren't from Syria.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 14:59
|
|
|
Ligur posted:The belief that some official can certainly determine the country of origin of a person who has vanished his documents on purpose and wants to lie for a residence permit is astonishing itt. And again, if you actually read about the measures and means they employ instead of operating on your own retarded gut feeling you would see that it's pretty loving hard to lie about which country you are from. Why do you think we still haven't gone through most of the asylum seekers? If the interview is so quick you claim it is, wouldn't we have done at least one fourth by now? http://www.coi-training.net/handbook/Researching-Country-of-Origin-Information-2013-edition-ACCORD-COI-Training-manual.pdf http://www.unhcr-centraleurope.org/...lum-judges.html ^ what a simple and easy process to go through! And to save your time, yes yes, I know somehow I, by submitting the actual process and facts involved in deciding whether someone is an valid asylum seeker or not, am the naive person here and yours is the solid reality-based argument. Also I'm probably a nippelinörtti or pilkunnussija to boot. So instead of spending effort on writing that out, try to provide some actual counter-evidence. EDIT: Just out of interest, what Arabs do you feel are coming in large numbers through Turkey except Syrians or Iraqis? Darkest Auer posted:Too bad the "children" coming to Finland aren't from Syria. Too bad you don't have to be from Syria to be a valid asylum seeker. Which was also said in the post. This is what, the third time you've been trying gotcha me on something that I already mentioned? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Apr 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 15:02
|
|
|
Ligur posted:Yeah sssuuuure. I am the only person who discusses the topic. Just because I, Cake Smashing Boob doctor of psychology, have chosen to name this most terrible disease of the mind after you, does not mean you suffer it alone.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 15:03
|
|
|
Ligur posted:The belief that some official can certainly determine the country of origin of a person who has vanished his documents on purpose and wants to lie for a residence permit is astonishing itt. Phoneposting, catching a train, but please explain: who believes this?
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 15:07
|
|
|
DarkCrawler posted:Too bad you don't have to be from Syria to be a valid asylum seeker. Which was also said in the post. Maybe, but you're just spouting off the usual Ylemedia talking points on how we can't let the poor Syrian children die and how there's nothing we can do except accept fifty billion migrants (only if they're brown, naturally). Finland owes nothing to the Middle East and especially nothing to the men who are doing the terror and killing over there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 15:17
|
|
|
Darkest Auer posted:Maybe, but you're just spouting off the usual Ylemedia talking points on how we can't let the poor Syrian children die and how there's nothing we can do except accept fifty billion migrants (only if they're brown, naturally). Finland owes nothing to the Middle East and especially nothing to the men who are doing the terror and killing over there. So now we're at the point where you are not content in just ignoring my post and calling me out on not saying things I already said in the post you quoted, but insist on replacing what I write with your weirdo fevered straw-men and calling me out on those? Maybe you should have this conversation in your head since that seems to be where it is mostly being conducted anyway 
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Apr 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 17:39
|
|
|
Cake Smashing Boob posted:Phoneposting, catching a train, but please explain: who believes this? Everyone who claims European officials can accurately vet asylum seekers. Those folks can be found in this thread and could be found on any Scandi- or EuroPol threads. You will probably just choose not to believe this, but iirc about 80% of the asylum seekers come to Germany without any identification according to a news piece earlier this year, and one mainstream paper (can't rememer which) reported that according to the police they have not been able to establish the real identities of 90% of the new comers in 2015 I believe, and another one told us that estimated 30% of "Syrians" are not Syrian at all and have fake papers when they have papers. It's been common knowledge you can buy Syrian passports for mere hundreds of bux. The Finnish police have also reported they don't really know who these folks are. And how could they? But even if those numbers were false and it was only 70 or 60 percent or whatever the idea that overworked European staff who speak no Arabic and have not lived in Middle-East can somehow with penetrating mind gaze tell who is who and from where is ridiculous.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 19:15
|
|
|
Ligur posted:Everyone who claims European officials can accurately vet asylum seekers. Those folks can be found in this thread and could be found on any Scandi- or EuroPol threads. Hey kids! It's DarkCrawler and "let's spend a minute thinking about this!" again! You...you do realize that Syrian refugees get registered when they cross the border to Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, or anywhere else in the Middle East? Like none of them actually travel from the Syrian coast because that coast is 100% controlled by Assad. You do realize that the people at the border are Arabs or people who have been bordering Arab speaking countries their whole existence. You do realize that most of these refugees have been living in these countries for years, and UNCHR has decades long presence in many of these countries. I would imagine that Arab speaking is probably pretty well established now. Here is THAT process, by the way. Please tell me that you know this. How do you think this list is compiled down to the last decimal point and exact goddamn demographic profile: http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/regional.php So you know, when a refugee registers again in UNHCR Europe like every refugee does: http://data.unhcr.org/syrianrefugees/asylum.php The UNHCR can be like "Hey, we got your information here, Hassan! Since this is basically just for UN record keeping purposes and actually does jack and poo poo in ensuring that you can remain in this country, time to start the completely separate and MUCH longer process of claiming asylum in the country where you have to prove your identity once again! Boy if you were an Indian guy named Rajiv who learned to say nothing but "salaam aleikum" in Arabic bet you'd feel pretty stupid for wasting four thousand euros on a smuggler, huh!" Like holy gently caress yes some people have claimed to be Syrians falsely at the border to the officials of that country but it's not literally possible to do so in the UNHCR records. Don't you think they would be kind of weirded out if tens of thousands of Syrians were manifesting out of nowhere in Europe and they had zero records of them? Here's another tidbit, that's how they know how some of them are Palestinian refugees in Syria or just newly registered Syrians too! Hey, I wonder what magical thing you will invent next time to justify your beliefs. Maybe people are looking for asylum spots so hard that they actually enter Syria and infiltrate their communities and families so they can cross the Syrian border to Turkey and Jordan and Lebanon so they can cross the Mediterranean to enter Greece  P.S. As for the passports: http://tribune.com.pk/story/1010300/germany-says-overestimated-migrants-with-fake-syrian-passports/ Like these posts wouldn't be half as long if I didn't have to explain basic concepts about a crisis that has been on the news, non-stop, for over a year now. Also do your homework for you when you refer to vague articles you may have read at some point. If you insist on complaining about something at least be informed about it. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Apr 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 20:33
|
|
|
Ligur posted:Everyone who claims European officials can accurately vet asylum seekers. Those folks can be found in this thread and could be found on any Scandi- or EuroPol threads. Given the supposed prevalence, it should be trivially easy for you to quote someone who honestly believes that an overworked, monolingually Finnish, one legged, stark raving mad, blind and deaf lunatic who's never left Outokumpu, with no outside help, can, certainly, without a shadow of a doubt, ascertain someone's identity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 20:52
|
|
|
Cake Smashing Boob posted:Given the supposed prevalence, it should be trivially easy for you to quote someone who honestly believes that an overworked, monolingually Finnish, one legged, stark raving mad, blind and deaf lunatic who's never left Outokumpu, with no outside help, can, certainly, without a shadow of a doubt, ascertain someone's identity. I am myself a one legged black Lesbian muslim truck driver trans-sexual and fear cis-hetero white men. edit: that said, if nobody anywhere really believes that identities can be ascertained by spoken stories then you agree with me: there is no way to tell if asylum seekers are bullshitting or not, and this is awesome for you to understand hahahahaha, yes i accidentally support isis and so on, shut up and get some sleep vvvvvvvvv Ligur fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Apr 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 21:16
|
|
|
No, you're a guy who's so loving stupid that you posted an article whose main point was that people like you are useful idiots for ISIS and then proceeded to act like you totally owned them suvakkis. poo poo like this is mainly why nobody with more than two brain cells takes your claims seriously.
Cerebral Bore fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Apr 27, 2016 |
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 21:27
|
|
|
Ligur posted:I am myself a one legged black Lesbian muslim truck driver trans-sexual and fear cis-hetero white men. Except that there actually are multiple ways to tell that, they have been used to determine that a miniscule fraction of them lie about their nationality because there is no advantage in it, and you ignore this evidence to justify your mindset because that is what ideologues do so they can feel good about themselves.
|
|
#
?
Apr 27, 2016 21:41
|
|
|
I feel truly sorry for all Europeans who are currently studying in Teatterikorkeakoulu etc. or otherwise aiming to be professional actors. Obviously they have no future in the business since we seem to be letting tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people into Europe who are naturally superior actors, being able without any training to use completely fake accents and lie to experienced interviewers without anyone noticing that they're faking it. Also what a world we live in where it's literally impossible to know when someone's lying.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 07:47
|
|
|
ALLAN LASSUS posted:I feel truly sorry for all Europeans who are currently studying in Teatterikorkeakoulu etc. or otherwise aiming to be professional actors. Obviously they have no future in the business since we seem to be letting tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people into Europe who are naturally superior actors, being able without any training to use completely fake accents and lie to experienced interviewers without anyone noticing that they're faking it. See?! Coming over here taking all our jobs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 07:53
|
|
|
If it is so impossible to determine where any given refugee comes from, one wonders how the ligurs ITT have managed to obtain the knowledge that they're not actually from war-torn countries, and why they have not chosen to share this method of ascertaining the ineffable with the relevant authorities to help their work.Ligur posted:hahahahaha, yes i accidentally support isis and so on, shut up and get some sleep According to that one article you yourself thought was important and relevant enough to share with us all, yes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 10:12
|
|
|
As a break from the regular racistposting itt, what do you people think about the Toivakka thing?
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 14:25
|
|
|
Kemper Boyd posted:As a break from the regular racistposting itt, what do you people think about the Toivakka thing? She's a crook so what. Harakka is a narcissist and an imbecile.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 14:26
|
|
|
Jerry Cotton posted:She's a crook so what. Harakka is a narcissist and an imbecile. You could go to Hummpub to get us some Kadummies views on the subject.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 14:41
|
|
|
Kemper Boyd posted:You could go to Hummpub to get us some Kadummies views on the subject. At this time it's mostly women.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 14:41
|
|
|
Harakka is in the right on this one, but on the other hand, is it really news that kok gonna kok?
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 14:46
|
|
|
Kemper Boyd posted:As a break from the regular racistposting itt, what do you people think about the Toivakka thing? Possible leftist conspiracy?
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 14:46
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:Harakka is in the right on this one, but on the other hand, is it really news that kok gonna kok? Well, this level of govt corruption and dishonesty is rather unprecedented in recent times.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 14:54
|
|
|
Cerebral Bore posted:Harakka is in the right on this one, but on the other hand, is it really news that kok gonna kok? No and that's terrible. People don't really make a fuss about literal criminals in government anymore.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 14:59
|
|
|
Thats the pro blem that kind of tax dodging isnt illegal. Kok kers are Just Happy their dudes are smart planners, taxation is theft anyway.
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 15:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 17:32 |
|
|
http://www.hs.fi/politiikka/a1461817940870?ref=hs-prio-2-1 Well, he'd know
|
|
#
?
Apr 28, 2016 16:32
|
|