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ChickenWing posted:you're loving retarded I'd love to be educated then. What's the big deal? I legit don't get it and would like to not be loving retarded.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:20
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pugnax posted:If you want to be pedantic about the economics of scarcity feel free, has nothing to do with my point. Don't be dense. Ah. So ISK value shouldn't have anything to do with ship balance. Got it.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:22
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Is it just coincidence that the new DD's were developed by former PL and NC. members? I think not.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:23
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Eminai posted:Ah. So ISK value shouldn't have anything to do with ship balance. Got it. If you guys want to be morons about it then let's say 'market value of bill of materials along with reasonable costs for manufacture and appropriate pilot training' or something. Or just give me an example of what is a balancing factor.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:26
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pugnax posted:If you want to be pedantic about the economics of scarcity feel free, has nothing to do with my point. Don't be dense. You're missing a dimension on the scale and that's human effort. One person should not be able to buy himself victory over ten active human beings with isk.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:26
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pugnax posted:I'd love to be educated then. What's the big deal? I legit don't get it and would like to not be loving retarded. The "big deal" is that titans being able to mass slaughter things that aren't caps and maybe battleships is probably really loving stupid.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:27
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haws mulch bses
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Apr 29, 2016 16:32
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pugnax posted:If you guys want to be morons about it then let's say 'market value of bill of materials along with reasonable costs for manufacture and appropriate pilot training' or something. Or just give me an example of what is a balancing factor. supercapitals > capitals > subcaps >supercapitals would be a balancing factor instead of having supercapitals back to being able to do literally everything
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Apr 29, 2016 16:33
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:supercapitals > capitals > subcaps >supercapitals would be a balancing factor instead of having supercapitals back to being able to do literally everything more titans than supers - while supercarriers are strong, their fighter lifespan is measure in seconds.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:34
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i did say supercapitals not super carriers 
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Apr 29, 2016 16:34
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Yeah "cost as balancing factor" has failed spectacularly literally every time it has ever been attempted.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:37
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Palatine keepstar!
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Apr 29, 2016 16:41
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who here remembers aoe doomsdays through cynos fired from completely untackleable titans because i sure as gently caress do
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Apr 29, 2016 16:42
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Yeah, flying 25 jumps to eat poo poo on jump-in over and over again was terrible - though occasionally it was Orange Species instead of Shrike or Chowdown so at least you got to see a cool DD effect
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Apr 29, 2016 16:45
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nah that was AFTER they removed the ability for them to dd through the cyno, they had to actually appear on grid
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Apr 29, 2016 16:47
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:nah that was AFTER they removed the ability for them to dd through the cyno, they had to actually appear on grid so that they could be tackled by bumping neuting naglfars and killed!
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Apr 29, 2016 16:48
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I thought the cyno ability was removed with Rev II, along with removing bubble immunity - OS had his titan before that, I remember him killing us during our two week failed attempt to attack Delve directly from Agil right after LV's fall but before BoB invaded Tenerifis e: https://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/revelations-ii-patch-notes-features-fixes-and-improvements-1 "Titans can no longer fire doomsday devices remotely." Goatman Sacks fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Apr 29, 2016 |
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Apr 29, 2016 16:48
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:who here remembers aoe doomsdays through cynos fired from completely untackleable titans because i sure as gently caress do I just heard it from from an older Goon than me , that you are responsible for the first Goon Titan loss, can you confirm?
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Apr 29, 2016 16:50
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pugnax posted:I'd love to be educated then. What's the big deal? I legit don't get it and would like to not be loving retarded. When it comes to valid balance issues, Titans have very clear-cut and distinct problems that are visible when presented all the facts. Some would disagree about it, whatever their reasons may be, but there is no sensible reason under the sun for anybody to have this kind of power concentrated into one single ship, no matter how much it costs or even if you can never dock again.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:51
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Zephyrine posted:You're missing a dimension on the scale and that's human effort. It sounds like you're arguing both that significantly complex value chain for supercapital production isn't relevant to the human effort dimension, and that victory should hinge on numerical superiority. ChickenWing posted:The "big deal" is that titans being able to mass slaughter things that aren't caps and maybe battleships is probably really loving stupid. Why is it stupid though? Why should they waste carriers but not cruisers? I can see a situation of the signature application numbers being tweaked to allow smaller ship sigs to be less affected, but I had thought they were already accounting for that. FruitNYogurtParfait posted:supercapitals > capitals > subcaps >supercapitals would be a balancing factor instead of having supercapitals back to being able to do literally everything Completely agree, and they've done a lot to get this balance model working I think, maybe not far enough. But fundamentally eve is unfair and rewards coordinated effort, and if there's a Titan camping a gate and it kills a small gang, you'd think that it would be reported, and then you'd drop a herocat/welpcane/geddon fleet on the gate and melt the poor Titan, who is also almost guaranteed to be fitted extremely poorly because there are no faction mods in existence yet.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:52
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Vendictus Prime posted:I just heard it from from an older Goon than me , that you are responsible for the first Goon Titan loss, can you confirm? id lay the blame on sesfan for agreeing to give it to me tbh
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Apr 29, 2016 16:52
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pugnax posted:Completely agree, and they've done a lot to get this balance model working I think, maybe not far enough. But fundamentally eve is unfair and rewards coordinated effort, and if there's a Titan camping a gate and it kills a small gang, you'd think that it would be reported, and then you'd drop a herocat/welpcane/geddon fleet on the gate and melt the poor Titan, who is also almost guaranteed to be fitted extremely poorly because there are no faction mods in existence yet. yeah im sure there's not a shitload of other titans hanging out just salivating at the chance to get to "Save" that guy
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Apr 29, 2016 16:53
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pugnax posted:
Yes you could, but only to have the rest of PL and NC. drop a Titan fleet on your herocat/welpcane/geddon fleet as usual to save the solo gate camping Titan.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:56
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yeah like the elite solo PVP Ragnarok that keeps doomdaying the undock - Gaara lost 20 dreads before he finished locking him because of all the titans waiting for the escalation.
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Apr 29, 2016 16:56
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The Real Foogla posted:When it comes to valid balance issues, Titans have very clear-cut and distinct problems that are visible when presented all the facts. Some would disagree about it, whatever their reasons may be, but there is no sensible reason under the sun for anybody to have this kind of power concentrated into one single ship, no matter how much it costs or even if you can never dock again. I don't necessarily disagree (and definitely think that removing them is a valid design choice) but fights are situational and Titans are considerably weakened defensively. I don't think a Titan should be able wipe out fleets, unless they're extremely stupid and unlucky. But what about beautiful bombing runs that delete shield battleships? Is that too much power?
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Apr 29, 2016 16:56
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pugnax posted:It sounds like you're arguing both that significantly complex value chain for supercapital production isn't relevant to the human effort dimension, and that victory should hinge on numerical superiority. welcome to the original age of titans
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Apr 29, 2016 16:56
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Goatman Sacks posted:yeah like the elite solo PVP Ragnarok that keeps doomdaying the undock - Gaara lost 20 dreads before he finished locking him because of all the titans waiting for the escalation. lets not be that hyperbolic son, he got the dude like halfway down but gaara uhhhh didnt know sieging breaks lock so he lost multiple volleys there and also guy got to refit to be tankier
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Apr 29, 2016 16:58
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:lets not be that hyperbolic son, he got the dude like halfway down but gaara uhhhh didnt know sieging breaks lock so he lost multiple volleys there and also guy got to refit to be tankier Yeah I guess post-patch he would have gone down since he was able to refit himself to triple tank
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Apr 29, 2016 17:01
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:lets not be that hyperbolic son, he got the dude like halfway down but gaara uhhhh didnt know sieging breaks lock so he lost multiple volleys there and also guy got to refit to be tankier Don't have and will never have the isk for a Titan, but isn't that one of the new changes for caps in general, they cannot refit now if already engaged in a fight?
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Apr 29, 2016 17:02
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pugnax posted:I don't think a Titan should be able wipe out fleets, unless they're extremely stupid and unlucky. But what about beautiful bombing runs that delete shield battleships? Is that too much power? That's the crux of the matter - right now, a titan can wipe out a fleet. Battleship fleet would probably be easy, cruiser fleet would be difficult, frigate fleet would be improbable, but all possible. Bombing runs take coordination and skill of multiple pilots, and there's a significant reaction ability. That's good and proper.
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Apr 29, 2016 17:04
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Vendictus Prime posted:Don't have and will never have the isk for a Titan, but isn't that one of the new changes for caps in general, they cannot refit now if already engaged in a fight? Also sieging no longer breaks locks. If Gaara tried that stunt today that rag would be super-duper dead.
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Apr 29, 2016 17:04
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FruitNYogurtParfait posted:yeah im sure there's not a shitload of other titans hanging out just salivating at the chance to get to "Save" that guy Vendictus Prime posted:Yes you could, but only to have the rest of PL and NC. drop a Titan fleet on your herocat/welpcane/geddon fleet as usual to save the solo gate camping Titan. Yes, but traps, escalation and counter escalation is a totally valid mechanic, right? As is standing down. But FAX machines are very killable, and then capitals/supers only have local tank. Plus you can't refit with a combat timer.
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Apr 29, 2016 17:05
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pugnax posted:It sounds like you're arguing both that significantly complex value chain for supercapital production isn't relevant to the human effort dimension, and that victory should hinge on numerical superiority. Somewhat irrelevant since they are being massproduced all over and sell for around 110% mineral value. Numerical superiority should play a big part because more humans interacting with with other humans is a good thing. Good for Eve and the people playing it. When one person can defeat 20 other people at the push of a button due to isk alone then that is bad for the game. It would have been different if he had to lock one of them and fire on them. Then they would have had a reasonable chance to evade after he showed up on grid. As opposed to him starting the doomsday when they enter grid in warp and they are all fed into it
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Apr 29, 2016 17:05
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ChickenWing posted:Bombing runs take coordination and skill of multiple pilots, and there's a significant reaction ability. That's good and proper. This isn't 2007, bombing runs take a non-retard to probe then jump squad commander positions and squad warp bombers onto things at 30 (source: Boat can do it). Not hard exactly 'hard' or 'skillful'.
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Apr 29, 2016 17:08
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Xolve posted:This isn't 2007, bombing runs take a non-retard to probe then jump squad commander positions and squad warp bombers onto things at 30 (source: Boat can do it). titans take a button push
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Apr 29, 2016 17:08
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Also yes numerical superiority should absolutely beat SP and ISK past a certain threshold. 100 machs should beat 100 maelstroms. 100 machs should probably beat 150 maelstroms if the machs have a good FC. 100 machs should not beat 200 maelstroms. Or, a more apt comparison - one battleship should not be able to kill 250 frigates. one dread should not be able to kill 250 cruisers. Extrapolate as necessary.
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Apr 29, 2016 17:10
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Does anyone know where empire faction XL ammo comes from? There's a bunch of republic fleet emp/phased plasma/fusion xl up for sale in Jita, but it doesn't seem to be offered in the usual minmatar LP stores.
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Apr 29, 2016 17:10
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Mabye CCP can suggest fighting titans with nano Naglfars outfitted for bumping again, like they did back in the day. 
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Apr 29, 2016 17:10
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Xolve posted:bombing runs take a non-retard titan doomsdays take the same amount of skill as opening your eve client
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Apr 29, 2016 17:11
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Xolve posted:This isn't 2007, bombing runs take a non-retard to probe then jump squad commander positions and squad warp bombers onto things at 30 (source: Boat can do it). But an active fleet has a reasonable chance to dodge bombing runs. However I still think there's a problem which is evident by shield battleships being a mostly non-existant null doctrine type for the past few years. (except for a few short lived gimmicks)
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Apr 29, 2016 17:11
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